Bottle neck cartridges - I may be on to something....

I've had problems with all of my 30-06 stopping just short of chambering and I may be on to something. I tried neck sizing and kept getting chambering problems and for a stop gap I started full sizing (while I searched for the real problem) The full sizing didn't do much better. The bolt would stop about 1/16" short of chambering and wouldn't cam in the rest of the way, getting the cartridge really stuck in the chamber.

I believe I found the problem. I expand my case mouths and cut a bevel with a chamfering tool. I used boat tail, spire points and lead 'carbine style' bullets for reduced load. I haven't used spitzers in a good while. I would SLOWLY and CAREFULLY seat the bullet which would then fail to chamber.

I finally hit on this. When seating the bullet, regardless of how careful I am, I seem to be collapsing the shoulder almost imperceptably. I took the decapper/expander out of my full size die and give them a little squeeze around the shoulder. The problem improved so I think I'm on the right track.

My expander ball measures .3050" in diameter. Does that sound a little small? I wonder if I can get something bigger from RCBS.

Would lubing the inside of the case for seating be a cure?

I think I've heard other people having problems and this may fix a lot of crummy reloads out there.

Would lubing the inside of the case for seating be a cure?

Click to expand...

DING, DING, DING!! We have a winner here. Lubricating the inside of the case neck before expanding is the recommended procedure. I also think you will find that you are crushing the shoulder if/when you expand the case mouth dry. It is more likely that the shoulders are damaged when expanding than during bullet seating. Lubing the interior of the case neck may cause bullets which are not crimped to move during recoil and should be done only as a last resort. Generally, there is enough residual lube after expanding so that redoing it before bullet seating isn't necessary. Of course, all of this assumes that the cases are the correct length after resizing in the first place. If you think this is a problem with '06 cases, try .30-30's and .35 Remington cases which feature much thinner brass.

Personally, I FL size all cases used in hunting loads while checking that my sizer die is correctly adjusting and not pushing the case shoulder back excessively. If you prefer to neck size only, be sure to run all finished rounds thru the action to insure you don't have the problem you described. Do this before you head to the range or into the field.

Other possible things to check:

Do your sized and expanded only cases chamber correctly?

Are you positive the bullets are not contacting the rifling prematurely due to an OAL which is too long for that particular bullet in your rifle?

Bruce

First, lets clarify things a bit.

You are asking if you should be lubing the case mouth PRIOR to pressing in the bullet, not when doing the initial sizing. Note, I am assuming that you are lubing the case mouths prior to sizing or using a Carbide Sizing pin.

IMO lubing prior to pressing in the bullet won't provide any real benefit but it also shouldn't cause any problems unless you use an excessive amount of lube. Buckled case shoulders are typically caused by using too much lube on the external surface of the case during the sizing operation. Note, it took me a while to get this right but what works for me is to use an RCBS Lube Pad, flip it upside down on a full tray of bullets and deposit a small ring of lube on the mouth of each case. Then I wipe the lube down the outside of the case leaving a very minimal film.

I also had an issue with the Lee sizing die for 223 not sizing full length deep enough for my particular requirement, it was only sizing to the maximum per my Wilson chamber gage. To correct that I took the shell holder into work and used a surface grinder to remove just 0.005 inch from the top surface of the shell holder.

If you have a case gage for you 30.06 you may want to check your cases in the case gage after sizing and after pressing in a bullet. Doing this may help identify what is going on. If you don't have a case gage I would STRONGLY suggest you get one, they aren't that expensive and are something I've found to be nearly essential for sizing bottleneck cases properly. Note, mine are all L.E. Wilson gages and were purchased from Midway.

Next, if you are seating and crimping in a combined operation that is the most likely candidate for your problem. I have had enough issues with cases buckling in handgun cases trying to combine seating and crimping I won't use a combined setup any longer for any handgun caliber and would NEVER ever consider doing this for a bottleneck rifle caliber. Some hate Lee's Factory Crimp Dies but I find the collet design rifle dies work extremely well and the fixed handgun dies with that extra sizing ring have bailed me out on those handgun cases that buckled so badly they wouldn't chamber. I'll also point out that with a bolt action rifle you really don't need to crimp the bullets although IMO a crimp can help stabilize ignition and produce more consistent velocities.

Finally, a .305 ID case neck for a .308 diameter bullet sounds about right to me, so I don't think a larger sizing pin will do anything except reduce neck tension and cause issues with inconsistent produced velocity.

You can't neck size with full length dies. Trying to do so is equivalent to squeezing a toothpaste tube in the center. The head to shoulder measurement actually gets longer and causes the problem you have.

Your problem could be two fold. Turn the sizing die in until the press "cams over" center. The brass will be sized the max amount. Stop crimping. It causes more problems than it's worth in a bolt gun.

I've always removed any case sizing lube that is in the neck of my cases. I certainly would not add any. I do use mica to lube the neck during sizing. It has ne effect on bullet pull.

Lastly, did this brass come out of your gun? Sometimes brass from an oversized chamber will be next to impossible to resize enough to use in a different rifle.

The good tips above should solve your problem.

.. If you want to inside lube the necks you should avoid the brush/motor mica routine as mica is really hard on the lungs if inhaled. I put #8 shot in a small screw-top container for pellets and pour in powdered graphite: just dip the neck and size. Even with a carbide expander the difference in effort is significant.

Humongous thanks to all of you...

Wow. this is a lot of info and I'll bet I can get my problem solved.

Some background:

I started out with Lee Hand tools. No problem in the same gun. When I tried 30-06 in the press a few years back I had problems. By that time things had changed a LOT and I had to fix a few old habits.

I neck sized on the press, then when having trouble I bought a full size resizer and haven't used the neck die since. But I still had trouble.

I got a Wilson gauge, but all it was telling me was that the cases didn't work and I forgot I had it until getting back into bottleneck cases the last few weeks. I've been wanting to solve this for AGES. I just couldn't figure out where the problem was.

I doubt that my dies, being very old are carbide anything. They are old RCBS dies from the 60s or 70s. I have no idea if the expander ball is carbide.

So, I should be using some lube when resizing. No problem, I have some graphite and I put some inside the mouth with a q-tip.

It also wouldn't hurt, if not help, to put some lube in the mouth when seating bullets.

Should I call RCBS and get a new carbide expander? Do you think my .305" expander is ok if I start to lube it?

Again, this is a lot to absorb. I'll re-read your comments and see if I've covered everything. I'm itching to go reload, but I'll hold off a bit til I get this solved.

Questions.......

BruceM said:

Personally, I FL size all cases used in hunting loads while checking that my sizer die is correctly adjusting and not pushing the case shoulder back excessively. If you prefer to neck size only, be sure to run all finished rounds thru the action to insure you don't have the problem you described. Do this before you head to the range or into the field.

Other possible things to check:

Do your sized and expanded only cases chamber correctly?

@@@@ I think they did then, but I'll bet they will now! But I'll check.

Are you positive the bullets are not contacting the rifling prematurely due to an OAL which is too long for that particular bullet in your rifle?

@@@@ I'm sure this isn't a problem. Besides being in spec and have no interference in the rifle, I use some really short bullets in the rifle. (Now I AM having problems with short leades in my 9mm pistols, though)

Bruce

Click to expand...

gotta put 10 letters here.

One thing I learned....

On crimping. The 'new' way is not to crimp rifle bullets without a reason. Heavy loads, tubular chamber, etc. I just bevel the mouth and push them in.

Lubing.

Years ago I had similar problems, also with .30-06. I've long since learned to lube the case mouths prior to full length sizing. But, I take the added step of cleaning the shells after sizing as I believe that some lubes, if not all of them, can affect the powder.

Chambering issues with handholds can also be caused by not trimming the shells to proper length or a cartridge whose overall length is too long.

When my handle on my bolt rifle for the 30-06 does not close with out any pressure things are good.

When I need extra pressure to close the bolt, The brass has moved forward and needs a "Full" resize, not just a neck.....
since I measure the case OAL before every loading !!


I also ream the inside and outside of the brass but I don't get carried away with it.

Good loading.

rwsmith said:

(Now I AM having problems with short leades in my 9mm pistols, though)

Click to expand...

I had the same problem with my 9mm and a 10mm I stopped by my local smith and he reamed them for free.
Now all bullet types chamber.

TRIM-TO LENGTH

RW:

I'm rather surprised no one suggested you check the case length after full length sizing (unless I missed a comment).

I'll go out on a limb & state ALL rifle bottleneck cases "grow" in length when firing. You MUST know what the trim-to case length is before loading. Presuming you own a caliper, EZ-PZ. Of course, you'll also need a case trimmer. I've used one from Forster for many years.

Hank M.

Sounds simple, but what you need to do is find out what part of the cartridge is causing the problem:

- OAL too long: Unlikely if you have a magazine and the cartridges fit it. Also you can normally jam the bullet into the lands using the leverage of your bolt.

- Case too long: These cases may actually shrink a tad after firing, but will grow beyond their pre-fired length after resizing. Without trimming, they eventually will not fit in the chamber.

- Shoulder not bumped back enough: This can pop up after a few neck-size-only reloads. The shoulder has "risen" enough to make rechanbering difficult until you FL resize AND bump the shoulder back down far enough.

- Case body too "fat": the same issue as above, but applied to the entire case body. FL resizing should cure the problem.

One way to track this down is to try to chamber some of your now empty cases. If some chamber and some don't your caliper and a head space measuring tool (eg Hornady) will show what's different about them . . . case length, shoulder height, beer-belly, etc.

If the issue is still unknown, full-length resize a case and trim it below max length. If this case does not chamber, your resizing die is either defective or (more likely) set up improperly. Make sure the die is screwed all the way down. Check the shoulder height again . . . without neck lube your expander ball can pull the shoulder UP as it exits the case.

If the case does chamber, proceed to seat a bullet. If the cartridge doesn't load properly, the issue is in your bullet seating/crimping. It may be your seating die is (improperly) set to crimp before the bullet is actually seated, ie, a crimp is applied while you are still pushing the bullet in. That will cause a bulge in the neck and/or shoulder.

Hope that helps.

The 'new' way is not to crimp rifle bullets without a reason.

Click to expand...

I don't know how "new" this can be in view of the fact that it was the way I was taught to do it in the very early 1980's. The obvious exception is very heavy kicking rifles and those which use a tubular magazine. Heavy kicker is larger than .338 Win Mag IME.

Do your sized and expanded only cases chamber correctly?

Click to expand...

This should actually read: "sized, expanded and trimmed to length". This should tell you if the issue is caused by seating a bullet.

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that bottleneck rifle and pistol brass is to be trimmed after resizing. Maybe I'm assuming too much here.

.305" expander plug diameter should be ok. I wouldn't want it any larger than .306". If in doubt, e-mail RCBS customer service.

I lube the inside of the case mouth using the old RCBS lube pad and their nylon bristle case neck brush. You roll the bristles lightly over the pad and brush the case mouth. Th amount of lube applied is minimal but enough to be effective for it's intended purpose.

If you still cannot solve this problem using the suggestions outlined above, try sending your sizing die w/ expander assembly, shell holder and a couple of sized cases to RCBS (their manufacturer?) for analysis and trouble shooting BEFORE you buy additional equipment. It is very important to use a shell holder from the same manufacturer as the dies when loading bottleneck cases. Ask me how I know.

Bruce

Answers:

BruceM said:

I don't know how "new" this can be in view of the fact that it was the way I was taught to do it in the very early 1980's. The obvious exception is very heavy kicking rifles and those which use a tubular magazine. Heavy kicker is larger than .338 Win Mag IME.

@@@ I learned a bit before then and there were some practices that have changed and many rifle bullets don't have cannlures anyway. The other stuff, like tufting on low rifle charges, has been discussed on other threads. Oh, my Savage 110 w/o a recoil pad feels like an elephant gun. About the time I put the recoil pad on I was shooting mostly reduced and some very reduced loads.



This should actually read: "sized, expanded and trimmed to length". This should tell you if the issue is caused by seating a bullet.

I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that bottleneck rifle and pistol brass is to be trimmed after resizing. Maybe I'm assuming too much here.

@@@ Yes, I trim my cases once at the start if needed, that way I don't have to worry about it for a few loadings. Most of my loads are so super light now, I seldom have to trim.

.305" expander plug diameter should be ok. I wouldn't want it any larger than .306". If in doubt, e-mail RCBS customer service.

@@@ Thanks, I'm going on the premise that there is a lot to do before trying a different expander ball. I just hope I haven't worn it down.

I lube the inside of the case mouth using the old RCBS lube pad and their nylon bristle case neck brush. You roll the bristles lightly over the pad and brush the case mouth. Th amount of lube applied is minimal but enough to be effective for it's intended purpose.

@@@ A very little dab'll do ya in the neck.

If you still cannot solve this problem using the suggestions outlined above, try sending your sizing die w/ expander assembly, shell holder and a couple of sized cases to RCBS (their manufacturer?) for analysis and trouble shooting BEFORE you buy additional equipment. It is very important to use a shell holder from the same manufacturer as the dies when loading bottleneck cases. Ask me how I know.

@@@ I'll bet I know, I've had this set a very long time bought used back in the early 80s and added the FL die. I need to prove that it's my problem somewhere before I get any new equipment hoping that will fix the problem.....

Click to expand...

Thanks, R. Wayne Smith

I think I have it pinned down..

Twoboxer said:

Sounds simple, but what you need to do is find out what part of the cartridge is causing the problem:

- OAL too long: Unlikely if you have a magazine and the cartridges fit it. Also you can normally jam the bullet into the lands using the leverage of your bolt.

- Case too long: These cases may actually shrink a tad after firing, but will grow beyond their pre-fired length after resizing. Without trimming, they eventually will not fit in the chamber.

- Shoulder not bumped back enough: This can pop up after a few neck-size-only reloads. The shoulder has "risen" enough to make rechanbering difficult until you FL resize AND bump the shoulder back down far enough.

- Case body too "fat": the same issue as above, but applied to the entire case body. FL resizing should cure the problem.

One way to track this down is to try to chamber some of your now empty cases. If some chamber and some don't your caliper and a head space measuring tool (eg Hornady) will show what's different about them . . . case length, shoulder height, beer-belly, etc.

If the issue is still unknown, full-length resize a case and trim it below max length. If this case does not chamber, your resizing die is either defective or (more likely) set up improperly. Make sure the die is screwed all the way down. Check the shoulder height again . . . without neck lube your expander ball can pull the shoulder UP as it exits the case.

If the case does chamber, proceed to seat a bullet. If the cartridge doesn't load properly, the issue is in your bullet seating/crimping. It may be your seating die is (improperly) set to crimp before the bullet is actually seated, ie, a crimp is applied while you are still pushing the bullet in. That will cause a bulge in the neck and/or shoulder.

Hope that helps.

Click to expand...

I've been having this problem for a long time but haven't loaded for the 30-06 much until recently so I tackled it again. My problems was that everything checked out. Usually if I collapsed a shoulder it wasn't too hard to tell. But there not a very good way to measure around the body/shoulder/neck transition and It was only by comparing the shoulders and seeing that some were almost imperceptibly different from the ones that chambered. Knowing that and with your's and everybody's help I should be able to solve this once and for all. (Hallelujah)

For nearly 50 years my procedure has been to lube the case, dip the neck into powdered graphite (there is a little device made to do this, which is essentially a trough and some wire brushes of various diameters), then FL resize. Then TTL. I have never had a shoulder buckling problem in any caliber. And I crimp in the seating die, that is, WHEN I crimp at all, which is mainly just for .30-30.

"You can't neck size with full length dies. Trying to do so is equivalent to squeezing a toothpaste tube in the center. "

Nonsense. I do it all the time. Just back off the FL die a turn or so. Works fine. But I also use neck-size only dies for .22-250, .223, and .220 Swift.

Uh Oh....trouble...

I lubed (and the mouth) FL sized about a dozen cases last night and ran them through my gauge. They were GREAT. Except for four of them which stuck out a hair past the gauge max. The good ones dropped in like a rock down a gutter. I took the iffy ones back to the bench and thinking they was still lubed enough, I moved the FL die as close as I could to the shellholder and tried giving another squeeze to the case. It was a lot more effort than I thought and when backing out I TORE THE CASE RIM OUT OF THE SHELLHOLDER. First time that's even happened. I worked a good while to get it out but all of my tools have been scattered around by uncouth teenagers and I couldn't get together enough to do the job. I was going to make a hole in a 2'x4' help hold it on my drill press and I found the hole saw, and the arbor but some idiot had lost the arbor tightening nut. The little drilling I got done showed my how THICK the head is on a 30-06 case. I'll just have to get back to it later today. But in the meantime I have 11 good cases that I'm going to prime and charge and seat bullets into. I'll be back soon with the wonderful news that all my bottleneck rounds plunk in the gauge like crazy and actually PULL the bolt closed behind them.

Your seating die has a built in crimping feature , too much crimp will bulge out the shoulder. Back the die out until the shoulder no longer bulges out , lock the die in that place. This die does not need to be run all the way down until it touches the shell holder , just far enough in to remove any flare or put a light crimp on the bullet. I had the same problem when I started reloading the 30-06 also .
Gary

With a Wilson gauge telling You the case won't work should be a clue. The length of Your case AFTER resizing should be a MAX of 2.495. Then when seating the bullet use the proper reloading manual for the max over all length (OAL). Should cure Your problems. If You don't have a case trimmer that also should be a clue.