223 Bullet Depth in Case?

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Ballistic147

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I've been looking for an economical 62gr plinking bullet for loading 223/5.56. Last week MidSouth sent out an email that they now had Hornady 62gr HPBT's in stock that are decently priced. Apparently this is either custom made for MS or a brand new offering from Hornady. Anyway, I picked up 500 of them to try out.

Now being a reloading beginner I understand that how deep the bullet extends into the case will effect pressure. This new bullet when seated to the cannelure will be .100" deeper than what I've used in the past. None of the manuals list this particular bullet and none list the actual dimensions of other bullets to give me a comparison. Yes, I know to start low and work up but how much difference does .100" more bullet in the case increase the pressure? Is there any type of resource out there that lists the dimensions of various brands of bullets?

Below is a photo of the bullet I've been using beside of the new bullet. I've also used a couple others but they were dimensionally the same from base to cannelure.
 

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Which powder are you using. I have a Hornady manual and can tell you what Hornady says to charge.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Which powder are you using. I have a Hornady manual and can tell you what Hornady says to charge.
Click to expand...

I'm using CFE223. My go to is the Hornady manual however they do not list this bullet. Actually they do not list anything in a 62gr and 60gr is the closest match which would be fine if I knew what that bullet dimension is so I could compare that to the one I want to load.

Guess my question here is, does .100" make enough difference to worry about? If not, at what point does amount of bullet in case begin having an effect?
 
When you are loading for an AR you are restricted by magazine length.I load all my AR ammunition to 2.25" unless I'm loading an extremely short bullet like a 40 grain. I will seat them deeper so I have adequate neck tension. SAAMI specifications say 2.26" is max.

A tenth of an inch really can affect pressure. The old rule of thumb always was to seat a bullet deep enough that you have one caliber (.223") in the neck. It's really not necessary if you have adequate neck tension, but it is a good place to start until you gain experience.

I do not crimp anything so I ignore cannelures.
 
First, decide if using your intended reloads in an auto or a bolt gun. If auto, full length size and seat at recommended length for proper operation in magazine. If bolt gun, you have the option of FL or neck size and playing with OAL for accuracy.
 
Since this is apparently a new bullet by Hornady, this is where a call to their tech support number is warranted. When they introduce a new bullet, they have developed safe loads to share with the reloader. A while back, I had the opportunity to purchase a supply of Hornady 72gr bullets for my 223, and when I called for load recommendations, no one at Hornady was aware of this particular bullets existence.

Call Hornady to be safe.
 
When a company puts a cannelure on a bullet, it is a great
place to start with the OAL of your loads.

Most can bullets are set up for auto's............ but will work in
bolt actions.
I have found my bolt actions do a lot better with a longer OAL, if safe.
Crimping on a cannelure can raise fps a little but it may also
change the accuracy of your groups, one way or another.

A 1:10 or 1:9 rifle twist might also help with the heavier bullets.
 
Ballistic147 said:
I'm using CFE223. My go to is the Hornady manual however they do not list this bullet. Actually they do not list anything in a 62gr and 60gr is the closest match which would be fine if I knew what that bullet dimension is so I could compare that to the one I want to load.

Guess my question here is, does .100" make enough difference to worry about? If not, at what point does amount of bullet in case begin having an effect?
Click to expand...

I see what you mean about the Hornady data. Since the bullet you are using was released after their most current manual they may have data for it on their site and if not contact them. Hornady is usually helpful with their bullets when it comes to load data.

As for .100", I can't tell you for sure. The .223 case is on the small side so it's possible the pressures can rise quickly but how much, I don't have a clue. Sorry...
 
The simple answer

Data straight from the Hodgdon web site:

Case: Winchester
Twist: 1:12"
Primer: Winchester SR, Small Rifle
Barrel Length: 24"
Trim Length: 1.750"
Bullet Weight63 GR. SIE SP

Starting Loads Starting Load: Minimum load required. If a starting load is not populated, it often denotes a subsonic load.
Maximum Loads

Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L. C.O.L.: Cartridge Overall Length


Grs.
Vel. (ft/s) Velocity: The speed of the bullet in flight.

Pressure Pressure: The force exerted by burning powder measured in Copper Units of Pressure (CUP) or Pounds per Square Inch (PSI).


Grs. Grains: If the value is followed by a C, it denotes a compressed load.

Vel. (ft/s) Velocity: The speed of the bullet in flight.

Pressure Pressure: The force exerted by burning powder measured in Copper Units of Pressure (CUP) or Pounds per Square Inch (PSI).


63 GR. SIE SP
Manufacturer Hodgdon
Powder CFE 223
Bullet Diameter .224"
C.O.L. 2.200"
Starting Load
Grains 25.0
Velocity (ft/s) 2,957
Pressure 46,300 PSI
Maximum Load
Grains 26.4
Velocity (ft/s) 3,113
Pressure 53,500 PSI






The Sierra bullet has a greater bearing area than your 62 grain Hornday, ONE grain of bullet weight doesn't make a difference. Use the listed starting charge, seat the bullet to the cannelure, and load 2 test rounds. Verify that the load cycles your AR and check the primers for flattening. If you need, increase powder charge in 0.4 grain increments to reliable cycling. :)
 
Engineer1911, thanks for the info. I do have the Hodgdon manual and saw that recipe but without knowing the dimensions of the Sierra bullet was hesitant to try it. Maybe I'm just worrying over nothing.

Thanks for all the input so far. These will be fired out of 4 different AR rifles with 5.56 chambers, no bolt guns in this caliber. I do full length resize all the cases and trim all once fired brass to keep everything consistent. Anything with a cannelure gets a light crimp even though neck tension is good. I'm loading these on a progressive press and so far accuracy has been just as good as any factory ammo and a little better than some. Had these been within ten thousandths or so from base to cannelure I would have started low and worked up but the extra length told me to stop and get some advice. Don't blow nothing up you dummy!

So far, said bullets have only been gently fondled with the calipers. Seated to the cannelure they would be within SAAMI specs for OAL but it's that extra space being taken up inside the case that concerns me. I know (well, at least pretty sure) that the charge will need to be reduced due to the extra pressure but don't know how much and guessing really isn't an option. My goal was to get some loaded up to test this week and if things worked out go ahead and order some more. I did send out an email to Hornady this morning to see if they have any data. Will let you know what I find out.
 
I love the way powder manufactures test these loads in long barrels to get the velocities they come up with. My 16" and 20" barrels don't come close.
 
The potential for increased pressure caused by deeper seating bullets is usually countered by the increased distance from the ogive to the lands. Take a cartridge that is safe in a Weatherby chamber and drop it in a chamber with normal freebore and you will likely blow primers and lock up the bolt.

You are over thinking things. Reduce 63gr data 10% and work your way up with your chosen overall length. It's hard to get into trouble doing it that way.
 
Contacting Hornady is a good idea. So many variables impact pressure besides seating depth. Commercial .223 brass varies in case capacity between brands, mil-surp 5.56mm cases are less roomy than commercial brass, and some chambers are tighter than others, for instance. Trim length is a huge factor particularly when applying a crimp for semi-auto ammo.

It's tempting for me to want to crank out 500 rounds at one sitting with a progressive reloader. But when I'm starting out with a new combination, I will load up strings of 20 and keep reloading logs. Then I'll record observations from range sessions. Developing a good load to use with four or five rifles is an extra challenge. Some of the Hodgdon spherical powders I have used develop the best results near the top of safe pressure range. Good luck to you! Erring on the side of caution is always a good thing when it comes to reloading.
 
Rifles aaren't as picky......

Modern semi auto cartridges are sensitive to bullet depth affecting pressure.

Revolvers based on old black powder cases, .38, .357, .44 Special are very forgiving on bullet length.

With rifles bench rest shooters seat the bullets to where they touch the lands of the rifling when the cartridge is chambered. You can push them in any amount on the straight side of the bullet (shank). A factor in bullet depth in magazine guns is how the bullet fits in the mag, feeds and ejects. That's a pretty good indication of a good AOL for that rifle. You can make them shorter still. With rifles, you find a bullet depth that you want and tinker with the load until you get the best accuracy with that combo. I usually start with the longest bullet that will chamber and feed and work up the load from there. Of course any info in reloading manuals is a good place to start and you can play with it from there.

A friend bought some ammo especially for a Garand that is too long to fit in the magazine. I told him I could put them in the press and shrink them about .1" but he found a way to stagger the good and bad ammo so it fits. Point being, knowing the power of the ammo, I had no qualms about pushing the bullet in a little farther.
 
I love the way powder manufactures test these loads in long barrels to get the velocities they come up with.
Click to expand...

It could be that until the last few years, much 5.56/223 Rem. ammo was fired thru bolt action rifles.

Revolvers based on old black powder cases, .38, .357, .44 Special are very forgiving on bullet length.
Click to expand...

In view of the fact that smokeless powder came into being at the end of the 19th century, most of the rounds listed were not originally black powder rounds or were loaded with black powder for only a very limited time, especially the .357 magnum.

Bruce
 
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After doing a lot more research I have found the Hornady 60gr V-Max bullet to be .870" long with a recommended COL of 2.250". The bullet I'm using is .860" long so that data should be close enough to get started and seating to the cannelure will get me to 2.250". The Sierra 63gr SP listed by Hodgdon has the same starting load however the listed COL is shorter. Both bullets under Hodgdon list a starting load of 25gr and this is really close to the Hornady 24.5gr starting load. Now, as Magload stated this data is for a 24" barrel for Hodgdon and a 26" barrel in the Hornady manual.

To confuse things even more, the Hornady manual has a listing for 5.56 NATO using a 20" barrel and the starting load is 23.5gr however the max load is .5gr more than the 223 Remington listing. Could this be more confusing? No, don't answer that one! It would be most helpful if the bullet manufacturers would list the OAL on all the bullets they make. Even though it wouldn't be exact it would give you a good starting point on a bullet not listed in any of the data.

My plan is to start at 25gr working up to 26gr and test those first. Max is 27.4 for 223 and 27.7 for the 5.56 so that should be plenty safe. I really don't load anything to max anyway just to be safe, might try it in another 10 to 15 years.:D Anyway, thanks again for all the input. You folks have been a tremendous help figuring this stuff out.
 
Ballistic147 said:
To confuse things even more, the Hornady manual has a listing for 5.56 NATO using a 20" barrel and the starting load is 23.5gr however the max load is .5gr more than the 223 Remington listing. Could this be more confusing? No, don't answer that one! It would be most helpful if the bullet manufacturers would list the OAL on all the bullets they make. Even though it wouldn't be exact it would give you a good starting point on a bullet not listed in any of the data.
Click to expand...

That's actually not confusing. When 5.56 NATO ammo was being developed, the government wanted the ability to penetrate a Soviet helmet at a certain distance. The only way for the 55gr ammunition of the day to do so was to up the velocity. The only way to up the velocity was to up the pressure. To up the pressure safely, the chamber throat and leade were changed. That's why you can safely shoot .223 ammunition in 5.56 chambers but you take a chance of blowing primers the other way around.

To further confuse the issue, the pressure transducer is placed at a different point on a 5.56 cartridge than on a .223 when measuring MAP.
 
Last edited:
rwsmith said:
Modern semi auto cartridges are sensitive to bullet depth affecting pressure.

Revolvers based on old black powder cases, .38, .357, .44 Special are very forgiving on bullet length.

With rifles bench rest shooters seat the bullets to where they touch the lands of the rifling when the cartridge is chambered. You can push them in any amount on the straight side of the bullet (shank). A factor in bullet depth in magazine guns is how the bullet fits in the mag, feeds and ejects. That's a pretty good indication of a good AOL for that rifle. You can make them shorter still. With rifles, you find a bullet depth that you want and tinker with the load until you get the best accuracy with that combo. I usually start with the longest bullet that will chamber and feed and work up the load from there. Of course any info in reloading manuals is a good place to start and you can play with it from there.

A friend bought some ammo especially for a Garand that is too long to fit in the magazine. I told him I could put them in the press and shrink them about .1" but he found a way to stagger the good and bad ammo so it fits. Point being, knowing the power of the ammo, I had no qualms about pushing the bullet in a little farther.
Click to expand...

I am not restrained by mag length with my benchrest AR15 as I use what is called a Bob Sled and can load one round at a time by just dropping it in through the ejection port. I only shoot that rifle single shot.
 
Magload said:
Hey to add to the confusion there is listing for .223 Service Rifle.
Click to expand...

You are correct. Actually I forgot about that one.

Ended up loading 15 rounds total into LC brass. Five each at 25, 25.5, and 26 grains of CFE223. Hope to test them in the next few days. COL ended up at 2.240" to hit the center of the cannelure. Doing the math that puts it exactly the same depth into the case as the V-Max.

It's amazing how something as simple as knowing the length of a bullet you are not using can change things from very uncertain to very confident about a totally different bullet and the load you are working on.
 
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