This is why shooting glasses are required. I have no idea what caused this brass to blow. The load was 5.3grs of TideGroup behind a 200gr P SWC. 5.7gr is listed at max and I have chrono'ed these loads and was testing groups this morning. On the 8th round this happened. The shot did not seam like it was maybe a double charge and it wasn't following a squib. Blew the bottom of the mag off breaking the plastic and covering both hands in black. My face was the only damage beside the mag and the round that was in the mag. Destroyed the bullet. Range gun smith/manager cleared my Gold Cup and pronounced it ok. Suspect it was just a bad piece of brass. Winchester range pick up no idea of how many time reloaded.

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Is the GC factory or does it have work done to the barrel. Might be a little short on chamber support and that piece of brass was tired and edgy.

Well now your OP is gone..

Factory as far as I know as I bought it used. I don't see any work done and I suspect it was tired brass. I have put 1150 rounds through the gun.

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With the barrel in hand how does it look with a round in the chamber. Can you see past the webb and up the side wall of the brass.

I'm very glad to hear that you and your gun survived and I certainly don't mean to rub salt in the wound but here is a good reason why it makes little sense to pick up what another shooter has discarded. New brass is not that expensive and knowing how you care for your firearms (we traded S&W 686s once), I'm kind if surprised to learn that you use range brass.

Again, sorry you experienced this ordeal but glad you came out of it okay.

Ed

No I just pulled the barrel on my Remington R1 and it looks the same. The R1 I bought new so it has had no work on it. Could it be possible the gun wasn't 100% in battery? These rounds plunk fine and are at a COL of 1.230 the the load data called for 1.220". I suspect I will just have to chock it up as a bad experience and how I don't start flinching.

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Thanks Ed. Maybe I will go back to 45 ACP brass with small primers I know when I get it at the indoor range I shoot at that it is once fired. I just started loading large primer again and been looking it over petty well.

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Could it be possible this was a double charge. This is the best picture I can seam to get and it sure does look like over pressure signs to me.

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Another cause would be if the bullet was driven deeper into the case when it struck the feed ramp (not enough neck tension - tired brass)
That would cause the pressure to jump and blow out the unsupported section of case. Not fully supported area is typical of 1911 design .

Glad you are OK...those safety glasses did their job and a great reminder for all of us to wear them .
Gary

Thanks Gary that is one I hadn't thought of. It would be a good reason to move my COL out to 1.250. I only have 15 rounds of these left so I am going to pull them. I would be a nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs shooting the last of these.

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Dang, that must hurt. Glad you are OK and had safety glasses!!!

On most all Kboom threads the answer is just never known, it is all speculation. Could be this or that.

Bad brass, out of battery, wrong powder charge.???


Safety Glasses!!!

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Still Running Against the Wind

IF you're going to put 1150 rounds through your gun, you gotta use more than one piece of brass! Then it doesn't get so tired.

I thought maybe some of you might want to see what happened to the round that was in the blown out mag. The one on the right was not in the gun.

I do not know why the photo uploader is rotating some of my pictures. Sorry

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Kind of what I figured. Well I hope this post will make others think before shooting with out safety glasses.

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Magload you're a lucky man to survive that. Be safe out there.

If that small primer brass you pick up has a single green sharpie marker across the base, it's mine and it's been reloaded many times

Well, only at a range in Eastern PA

Very glad all is well with you!

I'm glad you have no serious injuries.

I know you say it didn't seem like a double charge but so many threads like this always include TiteGroup. It can not be a coincidence.

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SWCA #3437

No not the brass. I have loaded maybe 100K 45acp over the years, several diff guns, some brass loaded 15X +, barely read the headstamp, never seen one do that, ever. It looks like an out of battery firing. Could have been a double charge of TG, easy to do, but your gun would likely have suffered more damage. Also a double that would separate the case head like that would blow the primer out of the pocket & the rpimer pocket would look like you could put a shotgun primer in it. Could have been both. You GC should not be able to do that, but old guns are like old people, they can develop problems.

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Thanks
I been thinking about color coding my bases. It's to bad factory loads don't use a different color primer then when you buy once fired you would know they were once fired.

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Yes it think I would have felt the difference. Well I know I keep my eyes open when it goes bang as I seen the stuff coming back at me. Looked like a muzzle blast but at the wrong end of the gun.

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Yes and it is hard to find that one piece that many times.

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Could it be possible this was a double charge. This is the best picture I can seam to get and it sure does look like over pressure signs to me. The last picture is the round that was still in the blown up mag beside a round that
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Just another opinion:

Over pressure, yes
Double charge, no

I'm not a titegroup hater, I just have a healthy respect for that powder. It has an extremely high short start pressure. Any mistakes and the user pays, it's very unforgiving.

Sorta makes ya wonder about bullet setback.

I'm just glad you didn't get hurt real bad. It could of been allot worse.

I started out two years ago and TiteGroup was the only powder I could find so being new to handgun loading, I started stuffing shotgun shells in the early 60s, I have been very careful with the powder. If i think there is any chance I got a double load I dump the charge and restart it in station 2 of my 550. it can happen it a problem occurs on station one. I am capably of making mistakes but I don't think I did. We will never know.

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looks like another one I've seen in a Sig
Eerily similar load of TG + Winchester brass and a plated 200G pill

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it just needs more voltage

Well, some do. Remington primers are brass-colored so when you encounter a case with an R-P headstamp and a nickle-plated primer, you know it can't be once-fired. A friend once watched another club member shoot a box of .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum shells and since I had told him that new brass for that caliber is scarce and salty when you find it and the shooter didn't keep it, my friend assumed the shooter didn't reload and kept it for me. Several years later, I opened the bag with intentions of using it but when I spotted the nickle-plated primers, into the trash it went.

Not to beat that dead horse, but buying new brass eliminates any concerns like that. The only time I have accepted brass from someone else is .223 REM cases from a friend who buys R-P ammunition for his AR-15, does not reload and keeps his brass for me.

Ed

Well good buddy-you finally got the pirate look. You probably have some brass & powder in your face. When the web blew out the pressure came back through the slide & frame. Measure the block safety in the rear of the slide that the hammer hits. Bullet setback from not enough crimp like above is all that comes to mind. I have had 38s in autos do this but not 45s. When this happens it could blow the magazine out-break the stocks-or both & hurts the hand. Most of the time the gun is ok. Been there -done that.

Yes the mag took the damage and the two round that were in it. Busted the floor plate but the grips survived. I don't think there is any brass in my face did have a small piece of something in my right thumb. I am now thinking bullet set back also. I can press the remaining 10 against the bench and can't move them but that doesn't mean a couple rounds wasn't bad. I am going to shoot the last 10 and run the digital calibers on each bullet before firing it. This could explain why i was getting flyers way off my benchrest groups at 20yds. I was getting 3 rounds in a inch group and 2 rounds 3" off. Just wrote it off to poor eyes and open sights.

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A couple of thoughts.

1) Check your firing pin for free movement. It's possible that you had the firing pin "stick" in the extended position and that can cause an OOB firing event. BTW, it can also turn a 1911 into a Machine Pistol and it's one reason I do NOT like the series 80 1911. On a series 70 pulling the firing pin is really really easy, so cleaning that area is easy peasy. On the series 80 you have to deal with the firing pin block and my understanding is that dealing with that can be a bit fiddly.

2) What is the Standard Deviation for Charge Weight with Titegroup in your powder measure? If you don't know that I would suggest that you do some reading on Statistical Process Controls and Capability Studies. Do that and you will learn that this is an ideal method for determining exactly how consistent your thrown charges are and whether you can "throw and go" or need to hand weigh and adjust each thrown charge. BTW, in my RCBS Competition Powder Measure the SD for Unique is 0.17 grain and for H110 it's 0.025 grain.

My Gold Cup is a model 70. I have the gun apart as I am getting ready to drill and tap 10 holes in the dusk cover for the new scope mount. The firing pin moves properly. I would expect it it was sticking out it would have caused a slam fire but I was aiming that shot and squeezing the trigger. I am not good at this math stuff like you but that would really be good data to have. With all the drops from my 550 some were a tenth of a grain high but these loads were 0.4gr below Max and I had tested Max loads with the chrono all ready. I am betting on bullet setback.

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Just when I was getting comfortable after 2 years of reloading I see this.........YIKES! I am truly glad that the outcome was not worse on you, I am sure it is still a bit traumatic when you think about it.

Thanks for sharing your experience, it is a good reminder for me and the comments of how and what could have happened are interesting. I like Titegroup, I know this could happen with any powder. I hope to hear you have not lost your touch on the range and things get back in the groove in a timely manner for you. Again thanks for sharing as this is a good lesson for me.
Karl

Is it possible you had a round with bullet setback that raised he pressures to do that? I just don't trust that powder, it's known to spike pressures when given the slightest reason to do so.

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SWCA #3437

Thanks Magload for posting your experience.

Glad you're okay!

....but it seems lately that some brass isn't fit for reloading. I've thrown out some cracked brass that was like tin foil. It wouldn't surprise me if "one shot brass" was a new way to cut corners and encourage the buying of new ammo.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

How many reloaders here DON'T use found range brass? I've bought new brass before. But a major saving point is using brass that I've picked up after someone else shot it. Semi auto brass flies away and .357 magnum is scarce and expensive. I do believe, however, that I will be inspecting found brass closer from now on.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Here's one. If someone else thought it wasn't worth keeping for themselves or a friend, why should I?

Sure, there are range slobs who don't mind littering their club's grounds with their once-fired cases but when I can buy new Starline .45ACP brass for under $22 per hundred and even less when it is on sale, which happens now and then, why would I take a chance on used brass? Especially when you consider how long handgun brass will last when loaded sensibly. MidwayUSA had Remington .45ACP brass on sale for something like $80 per box of 500 pieces last fall. I had an unopened 500-count box on hand but bought two more boxes so I won't need any brass for that caliber for a long time.

It sounds like Magload's problem may have been caused by something other than his brass but I'm sorry, it's not a chance I will take for that amount of money, especially when you consider what a destroyed gun, injury pain and suffering and lost time from work costs.

Ed

There are times when i use SAAMI max loads in my guns, but normally i end up finding a sweet spot somewhere slightly below maximum. And i use titegroup in several calibers...38 Special,9mm,45 acp. You mentioned that you chose to use the max load listed...5.7 grs...and are using a powder measure to dispense maximum load charges. Powder measures do a pretty good job of regulating consistent charges but there can be deviations in charges,a little higher,alittle lower,etc then throw in the possibility of powder bridging in the measure. and oh yeah the bullet setback thing. I'm not criticizing your reloading ability or equipment but the fact is you chose to work right on the edge of max pressure so any of these things or a combination of them and you are over pressure. Back off a half grain or so...give yourself a little room for error....we all make em....Mike

Good point. I only load rifle ammo and then only that I will use for hunting to near maximum levels; handgun ammo is loaded as light as possible as paper isn't difficult to perforate. And for handgun hunting, I use factory loads - for perhaps a half-dozen rounds a year, why bother setting up my equipment for a different recipe? I bought two boxes of Hornady 240-grain XTP shells several years ago and haven't used one of them yet.

Ed

Over pressure with titegroup and you get blown cases.

Double charge with titegroup and you get pieces and parts.

Interestingly enough undercharge with titegroup in certain calibers/bullet combo's you get pieces and parts.


I've reloaded for the 45acp since 1990 loading and shooting countless 1,000's of rounds in 10+ firearms chambered in that caliber. I couldn't even begin to think of how much range brass I've loaded and still load to this day. Never had a problem with any of it but then again I don't load any of it to p+ levels.

A little bullet 101:

Everyone looks at things differently. Myself, I tend to look at reloading from the bottom up not the top down. While most reloaders look at the listed oal & the bullet weight to find a load. I look at the bullet weight and the seating depth of the bullet.

Typical bullet oal in a semi-auto has the shoulder of the bullet around 20/1000th's above the end of the case.Then that oal is tested for function. What's more important is how far the bullet is seated in the case and what is used to have that case except the bullet. Pictures are worth a 1000 words. 2 different 124gr bullets along with an expander plug.



Same bullet weight, if you use the same powder charge say 4.3gr of titegroup. Which bullet do you think will have a higher pressure??? Same oal, same bullet weight. What's more important in that picture is picture of the expander plug.

Is that a typical expander plug??? No
Does the op's expander plug look like the 1 in the picture??? No
Should the op's expander plug look like the 1 in the picture??? Yes

A factory expander plug next to a custom expander plug. The factory expanders are designed to put neck tension on the shorter harder jacketed bullets. The llloooonnnnggggggeeerrrrrr expander plugs with the step that flares the mouth of the case are designed to protect the base of the bullet and start the bullet straight. Which plug do you think would work better with the softer plated lead bullets the op is using/loading???



What I use for cast/coated bullets in the 45acp.



Why all the talk about expanders???
Because the op is using a plated bullet that is soft. They are made from swaged lead, not cast. Swaging bullets can only be done with soft lead, anything much over 10bhn will ruin swaging dies. And typical swaged bullets are in the 7bhn to 8 bhn range. So now you have a soft bullet that is easily manipulated/reshaped going in a case that has had a expander that was designed for hard jacketed bullets. It doesn't take much to reduce the neck tension on a bullet.

At the end of the day a soft swaged bullet was loaded in a case that was prepped for jacketed bullets. Then a healthy charge of an extremely unforgiving powder was used for a load.

Just something to think about, the right tool for the job.

Yep, another Kboom thread. Kinda like diagnosing car problems on the InterWeb.

It is either electrical. mechanical or fuel related.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I still have 10 rounds of the 5.3grs and will take my calibers and check for setback this morning. No setback in 10 rounds probably will not prove a thing. it could be just that one case that was tired. I did pull the bullets on the next 5 rounds that was loaded. They go into the box in the order they come off the press. No I am not OCD, well maybe a little. The charges were right on and it took 2 hard wacks on my anvil to pull the bullet. The plating shower no sign of crimp imprinting so I could tighten the taper crimp up a little more.

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Put unlike the car we probably will never know what caused this.

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Looks you are using an H&G 68 with a long nose. If the barrel link is longer than normal it pushes the barrel higher in the slide and the barrel will shave lead off the end of the bullet at the bottom of the barrel or could push it back if it does not jam. Sometimes you can remove a small amount from the bottom of the barrel to cure this. A round nose or plated bullet may work better. You can chamber two rounds and fire the first and remove the unfired one to inspect for shaving. Just thinking out loud. Did the pressure blow back the one in the magazine also?

Yes it did. I am headed to the range to do a setback check right now and I will also check the chambered round that is something I hadn't thought of. TY

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OMG! Don't do that as then the neck tension folks will be all over you!!

"Everyone" knows that crimping is evil and will upset the neck tension which is what hold the bullet. Over crimp and you lose the tension.

Sorry, just came from the sarcasm thread in the lounge,

On plated bullets you should not see any crimp line or at least just a tiny, tiny bit. The crimp should just remove the flare and then a tad more.

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Still Running Against the Wind

In this age of society's members having little love and respect for one another, I think it is great that a guy can post the story and photos of the results of a mistake he may have made in hopes of helping others without being called a dummy or berated in any way. There aren't many places like this one left and it speaks highly of S&W owners and the shooting fraternity in general.

Just thought that needed to be said.

Ed

Yep that is my crimping standard. I don't like Ring Around the Bullet tight. It doesn't really hurt as long as you don't break the plating. Berry's told me that in a email. I deleted the emails.

Don't be sorry about the sarcasm I like the stuff at my age I use it a lot.

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Ok to end this thread and hopefully this problem here is the results from this mornings setback testing. 4barrel's idea was a winner.

I measured the ten rounds I had left and wrote the length on the side of the brass.

Loader 3 rounds of that in the mag then 2 rounds of some 230gr Plated RN on top of it.

Fired the two rounds of 230 and dropped the mag and removed the SWC from the chamber. Measured all rounds and did this 5 times. Rounds left in mag never changed. Every round chambered was shorter. From .010 to .020 shorter.

I think that I had a round that for some reason that had less neck tension then these and it got jammed in way to far. Even these rounds are not except able and I am going to have to work this out.

Thanks everyone for the help and not calling me a dummy even if I did get close to being one. I hope that others will learn from this I sure have.
Don

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Thanks Ed there is a bunch of great people on this forum and we are all here to help each other.

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IMO, no. The primer looks perfectly normal. I have seen a few doubles as a range SO, the primer pocket always shows pressure signs. I am still betting OOB firing. What recoil spring are you running? Soft recoil spring, sticky firing pin, something went wrong, but I doubt it was the load.

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