9mm taper crimp and bullet seating die ??

DIYguy

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I've starting working on my first test batches of 9mm loads and mostly doing OK. One area I'm not happy with is the seating and bullet crimp. I'm using the Hornady American Series die because I didn't know better when I bought my pistol dies. Now I wish I would have tried the Custom dies instead.
The instructions I've found for proper setup all seem to go with the Custom die which has three parts and the American only has two. It's easy enough to get the COL set to the right number but getting the taper crimp correct is more of a challenge.
I started by measuring the COL for six factory rounds that I consistently shoot which are Federal Am Eagle. Averaged the length of the six rounds which came out to 1.136. I'm using Berry's 115 gr RN and their specs called for 1.13. Loading in the same Federal casings. What I'm finding is every bullet after seating has a full ring indent in the middle of the bullet 3/16" from the end. I backed off on the crimp a bit and those rounds I could push the bullet into the casing and it would drop all the way in. Tweaked the crimp few more time and even though they passed the finger rub test and measure OK by the calipers I could still turn the bullet in the casing.
Anyone run into this? Is it an American Series die issue?
 
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I don't know much about your die set, but I am a firm believer in doing the taper crimp separate from bullet seating in 9 MM. You can pick up a Lee Factory Crimp die for around $18 plus shipping from Midway right now. And Amazon has it for the same price and free shipping if you are an Amazon Prime member.
 
I backed off on the crimp a bit and those rounds I could push the bullet into the casing and it would drop all the way in.
This statement makes me think you are not sizing correctly or over expanding a lot. Irregardless of crimp the you should not be able to drop a bullet all the way in the case on a properly sized and expanded case. The only time you could do this is in a fired case prior to sizing.

Check your dies and steps prior to the seating and crimping steps. Something else doesn't seem right.
 
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Sounds to me like somewhere along the way you're losing case neck tension. Also, be sure you're only flaring the case mouths just enough to be able to barely start a bullet without shaving. Any more than that and you lose too much case tension. Lastly, too much crimp can buckle cases slightly also resulting in neck tension loss.
 
I seat/crimp with RCBS dies and don't have that problem. You have to set them up correctly. If you can't (or won't), seat/ crimp separately.
 
This statement makes me think you are not sizing correctly or over expanding a lot. Irregardless of crimp the you should not be able to drop a bullet all the way in the case on a properly sized and expanded case. The only time you could do this is in a fired case prior to sizing.

Check your dies and steps prior to the seating and crimping steps. Something else doesn't seem right.



^^^ this is my guess as well. Just set up a new press using the dies I've used for a year, had the same problem. Realized my sizing die wasn't adjusted properly. Screwed it down a few turns, set it right. Problem solved.


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What I'm finding is every bullet after seating has a full ring indent in the middle of the bullet 3/16" from the end. I backed off on the crimp a bit and those rounds I could push the bullet into the casing and it would drop all the way in. Tweaked the crimp few more time and even though they passed the finger rub test and measure OK by the calipers I could still turn the bullet in the casing.

If done properly 9mm needs no crimp. Case tension (squeezing the bullet into the case) is all you need. The crimp die is to just roll the flared case mouth back to a straight. Being able to push the bullet into the case and have it drop in is not good. You might not be sizing correctly or your way over flaring the case mouth. Maybe a combo of both. Read your die instructions again and find some videos on die adjustment on youtube. Would take forever typing it out here.
 
I had a similar problem when I first started loading 9mm's. After playing around with the sizing die, expander die, and the crimp I finally realized I just wasn't getting the case sized down enough to get good neck tension. Ordered a Lee undersized sizing die and problem solved.

As others have said, crimp does not hold the bullet in place but neck tension does. You might try seating a bullet without crimping and if it still moves you're not getting the case sized down enough. If it does hold then you could be over crimping it which can cause it to lose neck tension.
 
Set and crimp..

Seat and crimp in two steps until you get the dies figured out.

To do it in one step, back out the bullet seater so as not to touch the bullet. Then set the crimp depth first and lock it. Lower the seater plug until you get the right depth.

In 9mm some of us have taken to calling crimping "deflaring". In other words, you crimp just enough to take the flare off of the mouth of the casing.

It doesn't sound like the case is being sized down enough initially if the bullets aren't tight. Or maybe another operation is causing it to lose tension. I've noticed that if I try to 'doctor' a round that doesn't quite plunk right, I usually end up just ruining the neck tension.
 
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Get a set of Dillon carbide dies, which includes resizing, seating and taper crimp dies for 9mm. Setup is painfully easy-just follow Dillon's included instructions.

Dillon dies are "standard" dies-they'll fit on any press that uses 7/8x14 thread dies. No lube required, just clean the brass first before reloading.
 
Couple revelations to my questions.
Some of the cartridges held just fine, other I could rotate the bullet but all the bullets have a ring around the bullet at about the exact midpoint. I good friend at work brought in his 20++ year old Lee dies and we compared dies. The bullet seating stem for the Hornady American has a deep pocket for the bullet and a bevel at the end of the stem. It appears just this bevel is contacting the bullet and that is what is pressing the indented ring in the bullet sides. The Lee seating stem has a VERY shallow bullet pocket and only the flat end of the stem contacts the bullet. No ring on his bullets.
Tested the bell/flare for seating the bullets and had .357 to .358. Could manually lightly push a bullet into the case to test fit and it would hold if I turned the casing upside down.
In testing various cartridges loaded for the test rounds I think I found part of the issue. While initially doing the seating crimping test I had a bunch of cartridges with no primer and no powder. I used the impact bullet puller and dismantled those cartridges and reused them. I think the cartridges where the bullet could turn where probably the ones with bullets I had used before.
Same buddy says he doesn't like to seat and crimp in the same station, prefers to seat and then crimp (taper crimp).
I have a Powder Cop in one of my stations but 6.0 gr of Power Pistol in a 9mm case is pretty ease to see. Think it might make more sense to eliminate the Powder Cop, add a separate crimp die? Or....buy different seating die, use the Hordady to crimp and back off the seating so it's not used?
Part of the evolution.
 
Go over your die settings and make sure they are set correctly.

After sizing, just the tip of the FMJ style bullet should enter the case.
After belling the case, the base of the bullet should go into the case and stand on its own.

Now try to taper crimp after you rechecked your settings.

If things are not right, just go out and get a new die to finish your loading process.
I would not get a Hornady so you know you are grabbing the correct die to do the job right.
 
It's not the dies. I have CH4D , Pacific and Lee dies and have had the same problems with all of them ....it's the 9 mm round , it's a stinker. I've reloaded for 40+ years and the 9 mm Luger is the only one to give me these problems and it even made me curse at it.
Die set up is the key , no magic answer. Fully resize cases, flare case as little as possible to get bullet started into case, seat but do not crimp. after seating bullet to proper depth remove the seating stem and start the crimping adjustment process , put case in shell holder and raise ram to top of it's stroke and begin to screw in crimp die until it contacts case, give it a 1/4 turn in, check crimp, keep screwing in and checking the crimp until the bullet is gripped and can't be pushed in with thumb pressure. Too much crimp will bulge the case and loosen the bullet. Get just enough crimp to hold...no more. The seating and crimping can be done in one step after you get the crimp die adjusted , I still like doing it in two separate steps...but that's just me. Keep fighting it !
Gary
 
The GunStop in Wayzata is a valuable resource for reloading help and supplies. These guys had powder and dies throughout the recent shortages.
 
It's not the dies. I have CH4D , Pacific and Lee dies and have had the same problems with all of them ....it's the 9 mm round , it's a stinker. I've reloaded for 40+ years and the 9 mm Luger is the only one to give me these problems and it even made me curse at it.
Die set up is the key , no magic answer. Fully resize cases, flare case as little as possible to get bullet started into case, seat but do not crimp. after seating bullet to proper depth remove the seating stem and start the crimping adjustment process , put case in shell holder and raise ram to top of it's stroke and begin to screw in crimp die until it contacts case, give it a 1/4 turn in, check crimp, keep screwing in and checking the crimp until the bullet is gripped and can't be pushed in with thumb pressure. Too much crimp will bulge the case and loosen the bullet. Get just enough crimp to hold...no more. The seating and crimping can be done in one step after you get the crimp die adjusted , I still like doing it in two separate steps...but that's just me. Keep fighting it !
Gary

You are so right about 9mm. It had me questioning not only my ability to reload but also 35 years of being a mechanic. Didn't matter if Hornady or RCBS even tried a Redding set from a friend. Took a whole lot of loading dummy rounds to finally get a handle on it.
I always loaded all other handgun calibers with one seat/crimp die but use a seat and another for crimping.
 
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I have a Lee 4-Hole Turret press so a separate taper crimp die is a no brainer.
It make life so much easier
 
9mm is really pretty easy to.....

Once you get your problems settled, 9mm is an easy cartridge to seat and crimp in the same operation. Reason being is that the crimp only takes the flare off the case mouth, therefore, you aren't seating the bullet with the seating plug while putting the brakes with a roll crimper.

You SHOULD be able to set your crimp and lock the locking ring in place. Then you can vary the seating plug for different bullet depths.

I've has posts lately about Lee dies using an o-ring instead of a locking ring. I prefer a locking ring which most die sets have. You can buy spare lockings from Midway. I like the Forster and Lyman split rings with the cross bolt. i don't care for the RCBS straight in setscrew.
 
Gee, I haven't had any problems at all loading 9mm. However having learned the "hard way" that trying to combine Seating and Crimping is not worth the hassle I seat and crimp every single caliber I reload using separate stages for these critical steps.

To DIY guy, I have to question a statements in your original post.

The instructions I've found for proper setup all seem to go with the Custom die which has three parts and the American only has two.

This implies that your Hornady American die set only came with 2 dies. Looking on the Net indicates that the Hornady American dies set for the 9mm has a full length Sizing/Decapping die, a Flaring die, and a combined Seat and Taper Crimp die. Along with that you should have also received a shell holder for hte 9mm. Hopefully I am mis interpreting that statement of yours and you actually did receive all of the parts necessary for a complete die set.

Now, typical procedure for a 3 die set is to size and decap in the first operation, then flare the cases in the next operation, and finally seat and crimp in the last operation. As I stated I am NOT a proponent of combined seating and crimping and will tell you that you can use your third die to seat and crimp in separate operations by re-adjusting the die so it just does one operation at a time.

Now a run through on typical setup for these different stages.

First, you have to set up the Sizing/Decapping die. Something that is VERY easy to do for a handgun caliber like the 9mm. Typically you are supposed to bring the die into contact with the shell holder and then back it off by 1/2 to 3/4 turn. The easy way to do this is to place the shell holder in the ram on your press, raise the ram up with the shell holder empty, and then screw in the die until you feel it bind up due to contact with the shell holder. At this point put a dot on your die with a Sharpie pen at the 12 o'clock position. Now lower the ram and rotate that die 180 degrees Counter Clockwise so that dot is now at 6 O'clock. Then hold the die in position and bring the lock nut down and snug it up tight to "lock" the die in place. Then get out your hex key and and tighten the locking screw on the lock nut. At this point you have your sizing die set.

Next step is to adjust the flaring die, a setup that can get a lot of newbies in trouble. The way I like to set up the flaring die is to insert a sized case in the shell holder and then bring the ram all the way up. Then I start screwing down the flare die until I feel it starting to bind in the case. Then put a dot at 12 O'clock on the die with a Sharpie and lower the ram. Now, depending on the brand and the specific design of the flaring die you can typically have something in the range of 3 to 5 full turns of the die before it starts forming at actual flare. So I start turning the die in and counting. I'll go in 1 turn, cycle the ram up and down and then look for a flare. I keep on going in 1 turn at a time until I can actually feel the press working the case and producing a visible flare. Very often a result of this particular coarse adjustment is a very large flare but it allows you to narrow down the actual "working window" for the flaring operation. If the flare is giant, then back off a half turn and see what happens with a fresh case. The goal for your flare is to get the flare to the point where a new bullet will go into the flared case by 1/32 -1/16 inch and NO MORE under simple finger pressure. Once you have your die adjusted to this point draw a line on your die with your Sharpie at the 12 O'Clock position. Then tighten up the lock nut and re-check the flare with a fresh case. Note, many times you'll have to turn the die in just a smidgen because tightening that lock nut will actually draw the die up slightly in the thread of the press due to the clearances between the die and press threads. So if you need to tweak it a bit that's totally normal. BTW, once I have everything cast iron dialed in I use a diamond burr in a dremel to mark the 12 O'clock position of my dies.

Finally setting a Seat/Crimp die for just seating the bullet. What you do here is turn the bullet stem in by 3 or 4 full turns. Doing this will allow you to seat a bullet without the crimp ring ever contacting the die. Note, you will want to make note of the number of turns on the bullet stem you use between stages and be consistent about it. I'll also note that you could purchase a Lee Factory Crimp Die for 9mm and avoid having to re-adjust your seating die. Once you have the bullet stem set and locked in you then need to slowly bring the die down until you have your desired overall length. Then set and lock in the lock nut. At this point a couple of scribe marks on the lock nut and corresponding marks in the thread just above those scribe marks can make finding this position of the lock nut much easier.

Finally setting up to Crimp only. Start by backing out the bullet stem 6 full turns to insure it won't contact your bullet during the crimp operation. Then loosen the lock nut and run it up the threads on the die by 5 or 6 full turns. Take a case with a bullet pressed in place and put it in the shell holder and raise the ram. Then take you now Crimp die and screw it down until you feel it contact the case. After that point it will only take something in the range of 1/2 to 1 turn more to crimp your bullet in place. Note, I use digital mikes right at the very edge of the case to measure the diameter at the crimp. Then I'll take a measurement about 1/8 inch further down. When I set a taper crimp I set it to be 0.002 to 0.003 inches smaller than the diameter of the case where the bullet is sitting. While that doesn't seem like much of a crimp it's always worked perfectly for me.

Finally a note about overall length.

First, use a length that matches the profile and weight of the bullet being used as listed in your load data. DO NOT use something that "matches" a commercal load from a maker such as Federal. Because they will NOT be using the powder you are loading with. Use the length provided by your powder manufacturer, it's a very important detail. However, a deviation of only 0.005 inch is not a big deal, so if your length is within 0.005 inch you really don't have to fuss to get it spot on perfect. Also note that is just 5 thousandths, NOT 50 thousandths. Please, count the zeros because that can be critical.

Second, profiles between brands are typically quite close in overall lengths, so if you are using a Rainier RN bullet it will be within a few thousandths of a Berry's or Extreme RN bullet. However between a 124 grain FP bullet and a 124 grain RN bullet you may find a rather large deviation. Personally because the 9mm has always used a Round Nose bullet profile I've never tried one of the newer Flat Point plated 9mm bullets. Because finding load data for these oddballs can be difficult and I don't have any need for a 9mm FP plated bullet load. However if I did want to try out one of these bullets I would start by purchasing some 9mm Hornady XTP's because those are typically FP profile bullets. Then I would compare the length of the XTP to the length of the plated FP I was considering and adjust my overall length as needed to have the base of the bullet in the same spot as an XTP base would be. Because data for the Hornady XTP is very easy to find. I'll also note that I have found Hornady XTP's to be superbly accurate bullets.

Anyhow, this is how I set my dies up and I haven't had any problems at all doing it this way. I will also note that I have a Lee Factory Crimp die for every caliber I load, Rifle and Handgun. Some don't like the extra sizing ring in the handgun dies but I have never had any of the supposed problems these sizing rings might cause and they do insure every assembled round will chamber properly.
 
Scooter123: Great, great response! Very thorough!

Regarding the particular dies included with the sets, yes, I did get three dies plus shell holder with the American Series set. Besides the fact that the Custom-Grade sets have a split locking ring and the American have a steel nut and "O" ring, I discovered a noticeable difference in the Crimp/Seater die.
The Amercan Series Crimp/Seater Die (taper crimp) that I'm holding in my hand has two main parts. It has the main die body which screws into the press body bushing and is responsible for the taper crimp. This locks in using a steel nut and "O" ring. The bullet seating stem screws into the main die body and secures using steel nut and "O" ring also. The main die body moves up and down in the press and the bullet seating stem moves up and down within the die body. Two parts excluding the nuts and "O" rings
I'm looking at the sectional cut-away view of the Custom-Grade Crimp/Seater die in the User Guide. There is the main body that screws into the press (bushing), a middle die body that screws into the main die body and a third part, the bullet adjusting stem. Three, threaded, adjustable parts. There appears to be a forth part which looks to be a sliding sleeve inside the main die body that looks like it holds the bullet until it is seated. Plus the "O" rings and lock rings.
This is what I meant by the American has two parts and the Custom-Grade has three. The two dies are completely different.

An internet search found a variety of info and some very good YouTube videos but the ones I found were using the Custom-Grade Crimp/Seater, not the American.

I'm using the Hornady LnL AP press with the following stations and all Hornady parts:
1: Size and deprime
2: Case activated powder drop with PTX
3: Powder Cop
4: Bullet feeder die
5: Crimp/Seater die (American Series)

It's the crimp/seater die that is pressing the ring in the bullet and I'm thinking I may be better served to eliminate the Powder Cop and seat and taper crimp in separate stations. I don't like the current bullet seater as it leaves a ring. Found options for the separate Lee factory crimp OR taper crimp die, haven't found a separate option for the bullet seater without buying a complete set. Because I'm using the PTX I'm not using the expander die at all. If I cant find the seater and crimp as individual dies I may have to "bite the bullet" and pop for the full set of Hornady Custom-Grade.
Does anyone else have the Custom-Grade seater and does it have a problem leaving an indent in the soft bullets such as Berry's?
 

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