My point was

Fire power is fine, ACCURACY if FINAL

Don't mater what you carry, how many rounds you have, what the bullets or velocity is, if the rounds are not hitting the target.

Shooting newspapers, ballistic jell, jugs full of water are all mute, compared to realistic practice and the ability to hit your target.

Pick a good bullet load combo for the gun your going to crry and practice with it ALOT.

No bullet of load combination is infallible. People have survived multiple hitss with a 44 mag. Grizzly bears have been killed with a 22, but only a complete idiot would go hunting them with one.

In Paul Matthews's 40 Years with the .40/70 he put physics theory to test. He wrote of a thick piece of steel that he would shoot with his '06 (light and fast). The ringing of bullet striking steel was his indicator of bullet on target. His '06 would never penetrate his steel target.

He was given cast loads for an older .45/70 he had acquired. From memory, his bullets were ~400 grains at modest velocity (big & slow). He fired one at his steel target. The bullet penetrated his steel target, the same target that withstood '06 rounds. He had assumed that his '06 was superior for big game hunting.

The result of his .45/70 piqued his interest. He went on to acquire a few .45/70 rifles. Again from memory, everything he shot with a big and slow .45/70 bullet was a one-shot kill, mostly whitetail. If I recall correctly, Matthews never loaded a .45/70 to its potential in a modern rifle, including Ruger single shots.

The .45/70 is closing in on a buck fifty in age. It has only gotten better. It has killed everything that walks Earth.

The .45 ACP needs no support from me. It has proved itself as battle handgun cartridge and a law enforcement handgun cartridge.

While I do not own a 9MM, I hold no animosity for it. However, it reality, it is inferior to The King of tactical handgun cartridges.

This thread is old, long and very involved. To get back to the baseline,

I don't believe in 'stopping power', but use the term similarly to 'effectiveness'. The .45 is a proven effective round, though it has been known to fail. Did I mention the guy that had three .45 scars on his chest with a tattoo that read ".45s ain't ****"?

I did mention in post #30 that accuracy is the most important regardless of caliber or bullet configuration.

In the title of the thread 'more like a .45' is not the same as 'like a .45'. I know I'm not going to equal a .45, but I'd like to get close as possible. If anything comes out of this I might change my SD load to a 147 gr JHP Gold Dot, HTPs. Golden Saber or something similar.

Shooting twice is a very good idea, regardless of caliber. Heck, shooting three times is even better. I think that rounds left in the mag are just wasted.

Though I'm not a great shot, I avoid spray and pray in spite of having mags up to 17 rounds. My Shield holds 10 and I try to make every shot count.

Trying to do this in a Kel tec P11 with a 2" barrel is a challenge. I've had to modify my original plans due to available bullets and data, but the heavy, soft bullet is the key to what I'm trying to do. The reason I'm using a 2" barrel is that most any carry gun has a 2" or longer barrel. Most of the published data says that a 7: barrel was used. Not realistic for the real world.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

To get a 115 grain 9x19mm bullet to act like a single 45ACP round of 230 grain, fire 2 9mm rounds from a barrel 4 to 4.5 inches in length.

I believe the desired terminal effect will be achieved if both are accurately place at center of mass within 3 inches of each other.

My normal competition load is 124 gr bullet chronoed at 1400 fps, don't ask me for the recipe because it's obviously not in the books but it's used every weekend by thousands of shooters around the world.

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Minimize the variables

This is an oft relied upon quote from those who want to believe the 9MM is the .45 ACP's equal.

Tell me, Mr. Smith, just how accurate do you think you're gonna be when a banger who ain't afraid to die is putting rounds on you?
The reality is accuracy does not come into play in gunfights. Staying vertical is the dominant and immediate concern. If you were to hit a bad guy anywhere on his body, it would be a good hit, for in a gunfight there is no such thing as a bad hit.

If this is true: "Did I mention the guy that had three .45 scars on his chest with a tattoo that read ".45s ain't ****"?" the tatted dude was/is a moron. Were he possessive of an IQ above a moron, he'd wear a crucifix around his neck.

Easiest way, buy a .45.

Let's put it this way.

What I said was that if you compare two types of ammo. One groups at 1" at 10 yards and the other groups at 1.5" at 10 yards. The 1/2" is not as important as being able to hit the center of mass under whatever circumstances.

And the moron with the .45 scars, just saying that .45s aren't 'instant stops' because they are .45s. I'm NOT engaging in caliber wars here. I'm trying a ballistics experiment to have a 9mm ACT MORE like a .45, through means of penetration and expansion. It doesn't mean I need or want to carry a .45 or think that either is 'better' or is preferable or 'better' than the other. Whether the exercise valuable or not isn't the point. I'd like to try it for myself.

I'm going to the range today, cartridges, chronometer, tape measure and bucket of pulp.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Here are the cartridges I'm going to use. They plunk nicely in the barrel I'm going to use and the 9mm Wilson gauge.

I was only able to get 5.8 gr. of Acc #7 before they got too long. If I were using a hard bullet, I might be able to compress the load to get more, but these bullets are as soft as marshmallows and deform before seating.

I've got my bucket of pulp, chronometer, measuring tape, gun and cartridges.

Also, just because they plunk and are well within max OAL, doesn't mean they'll function in that little Kel Tec. But if I can get shots fired into the pulp, I'll be happy.

Attached Images

158grswcs[1].jpg (92.1 KB, 17 views)

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

How has nobody mentioned the 45GAP?

I think somebody even still makes pistols in the caliber.

Ok, got to the range, set up as below, 10' from the muzzle of the guns I was shooting into 12" of pulp from newspapers that were taken apart, well, soaked overnight and packed in, except I poured more water in a couple of hours before the range to make sure everything was saturated. I got everything set up at the range. (picture)

First I targeted my round because I thought they might shoot a little high. I shot the target, then shot at the hole it made. Same level. So, surprisingly, I didn't have to make any adjustments for the cartridge.

Then, I checked velocity. I got 927 fps several times, so I shot my carbine just to make sure the chrono was working. It was, so 927 fps is the velocity. This isn't any more velocity than the 5.6 gr Acc#7 I tried before. I thought for sure I could get 950 fps.

I shot 3 bullets from the 2" Kel Tec. The specs say 3.1" barrel, but knock off the length of the chamber and it's about 2". The test I wanted was a short barrel to get data in the smallest practical carry guns.

While I was there, I shot 125 gr bullets out of my Third Gen full size and my Kel tec carbine (18" barrel). I also shot a Remington Gold Saber 125 gr. JHP into it. With the test bullets, the Kel Tec was mostly reliable with one failure to eject. I think that length (1.13" OAL) i almost all that I could get into that magazine. Maybe I could jam a bit more powder in, but I don't see the point.

I took the bucket home and started digging, and found the 125 gr coated bullet from the Kel Tec at 8". Mangled with no expansion. The 'wound channel' on the test bullets were prominent. (picture). I thought I was on the right track.

Well, I dug....and dug.....and dug and started thinking "Uh, oh". Yep, all the other bullets had gone through 12" of pulp and exited out the bottom of my sturdy 5 gallon Lowe's bucket. So, all I know is that penetration is 'adequate' and, have no idea what the max penetration would be, and have no bullets to compare or see pictures of. I wonder if I can drive 45 minutes back to Boggy Head and find them on the ground behind my target???

Note: The bullets shot from the carbine and the Third Gen veered and came out the side of the bucket at the base. I was pretty careful shooting right into the center but I can't tell which bullets did what. I followed the track of the test bullets all the way to the bottom, though.



I guess I'll have to make some more rounds, get a thicker stack of pulp and try it again.

PS: The first picture below is a few inches down to show the 'wound channel'. It didn't blow up like gel, but it's a pretty nasty hole.

PPS: Wow. I see I started this over 2 years ago. Heart rehab, finding data and making bullets that functioned slowed me down pretty good. Maybe we can put this to rest next time I go out.

PPPS: I see 'Double Tap' makes a 165 gr jhp +P round in 9mm called 'Equilizer'. I should pick some of those up and try them. MV of 900 fps. That's a bit of data I can use. A Double Tap +P load is probably close to max pressure.

Attached Images

	wound_channel[1].jpg (96.0 KB, 19 views)
	threeontarget[1].jpg (52.6 KB, 20 views)
	testsetup[1].jpg (91.9 KB, 17 views)

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

It seems that Glock still makes the G37, G38 and G39 chambered for the .45 Glock Auto Pistol. Bond Arms makes some small pistols. That's interesting. I've never looked into the GAP, well, because I just.......never have.

The SC Highway Patrol uses them. Probably got them in a clearance sale.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Final data and pics:

Well, the deed is done. After only getting velocity of 927 fps at the range and the penetration/expansion being indeterminate, I loaded up three more rounds of 9mm 158 gr. SWCHP and except for adding 9 " of pulp to my already damaged bucket, I repeated the shots at 10' from the muzzle.
I had one failure to fire. A carefully weighed and assembled cartridge. Just a dent in the primer so I only had two shots.

OK, DATA
I dug down 5" and saw two right nasty looking wound channels (see picture). I opened the ragged edges for better viewing.
The first bullet was at a depth of 13". The second was at a depth of 19" I can't account for the large disparity. Expansion in both was poor. I'd expected more but I'm not sure how hard these bullets are. They were easy to deform on the press, but didn't flatten/expand like a soft bullet. (See pictures)
The diameter of the first bullet was .316" and .379" at largest and smallest dimension. The diameter of the second bullet .376" and .393".

The first bullet was found lying sideways and the expanded part looked like it had been 'pinched'. The second showed the beginnings of a tri-petal expansion but the amount of expansion was small. Would a softer bullet have worked better? (see pictures)

Conclusion: I bigger sample might show some consistency in penetration, the difference in the two bullets was at the extreme ends of the acceptable 12" to 18", though the second bullet overpenetrated slightly. Exansion wasn't as good as many other 9mm bullets I"ve shot at various velocity. The wound channel, however, was almost large enough to put my index finger in and appeared very nasty (subjectively)

Will I pursue this further? I'm curious about Double Tap's 165 gr. JHP load. Also, if I were to find a softer bullet it would be worth another 'shot'. I found that with 5.8 gr. of Acc #7 that seating the bullet to the level of the powder without trying to compress it kept the bullets from deforming and the OAL was ok. I was surprised that showing so much shoulder of an SWC was able to chamber nicely in the Kel Tek. Anyway, any longer barrel than 2" should do at least as well as shown here.

Attached Images

	woundchannel2[1].jpg (77.8 KB, 18 views)
	bullettopview[1].jpg (78.9 KB, 17 views)
	bulletsfront[1].jpg (58.4 KB, 18 views)

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

While I've got everything I need worked out I'm not going to drop this right yet, as I believe that I can get more satisfactory and consistent data.

The 927 fps velocity is not bad and faster than the 830 fps I originally proposed for the 165 gr bullet.

I'm going to get a larger sample of bullets to test. At least 5 rounds.

I'm also going to open up the hollow point before I shoot them.

At least phase one is done.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Over the decades there have been various "test media" for bullet penetration, expansion and wound cavity. This included the soaked newsprint, big blocks of modeling clay/sealant and others. When compared to the results from ballistic gelatin, all the results proved grossly inaccurate.

Actually, even ballistic gel provides a comparative test, not a predictive test. Bodies aren't the same density all the way through.

Now there is one readily available media that does provide reasonable comparative results:water. You can do this with large bags or with milk jugs placed against each other. Expansion will be the same as ballistic gel. To make penetration relevant, you have to measure the distance in water, then divide by 1.55 to convert to ballistic gel.

[The milk jug system uses an assumption of 6 inchs for each complete jug, measurement for the jug it stops in. It gets a bit more complex, but my notes on the the system from a publication are elsewhere. I'll find them if there's interest.]

Accurate enough. Does that answer your question?

I didn't dare read this whole thread.

Can anyone give me the shortened Cliff Notes Version?

Is there a conclusion?

EDIT

Well shazam !!all you really need is Federals NEW Hydro Shok 135 gr bullets!

Federal Premium Launches All-New Hydra-Shok Deep Personal Defense Load | Midsouth Shooters Blog

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Still Running Against the Wind

I had an idea about the use of a soft, heavy 9mm SWCHP as an SD round and how effective it would be by getting the penetration of a heavy slug, but with effectiveness increased by expansion of the bullet.

I found some 165 grain heavy plated RN bullets and modified them into hollow points. I was stymied by lack of data but was able to get decent velocities. No expansion. The things were just too hard.

I ordered 158 grain hollow points that seemed to fit the bill. And there was a little more load data for them. They were very difficult to load for all kinds of reasons but I managed to get some shots off. Results inconclusive because the bullets went through the pulp and the bucket.

I tried again with thicker pulp. I shot two rounds and found the bullets 13" and 19" deep. Expansion was very poor in spite of the 927 fps velocity. I have no explanation for the extreme variation in depth.

I've got more rounds loaded up and I'm going to try again to get more and more consistent data.

The bullets seem soft enough and they are easily deformed if seated too hard. Why in the world didn't they expand in the test?

Though this is something not written about much, I found some more comment and data on such a round. And it turns out that Double Tap produces a 165 grain JPH in 9mm. THAT was a surpise. I'd like to get some or maybe find some test results on the web.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

It is fun to experiment. If you are really serious, you need to get some ballistic gel for tests, so all things are on an even playing field. (JMO)

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Still Running Against the Wind

Looking at your velocities, I'd expect your expansion for LSWCHP bullets in 9mm to be about the same as in a .38 Spl. My personal experience with that bullet form and velocities-even with factory ammo- is great penetration, questionable expansion. I've never recovered any even after penetration of ~24" of tissue simulant. That being the case, I doubt there's significant expansion.

Some thoughts from a fellow addicted experimenter.

I use milk jugs full of water.

The medium has remained fairly consistent for 30 years. The one gallon milk jugs I used today look remarkably similar to those from 1985. Despite the extra heavy metals present these days, the water seems to have about the same viscosity it used to have...as long as I test above 32F.

This is lab-testing for me. Screening for winners and losers, not trying to put a man on the moon. I don't care whether or how close water emulates the human body ... if it doesn't expand in water jugs it's "improperly designed for the velocity". Since I'm always restricted by the velocity I can obtain, failure to expand at my velocity means it's a failure for me...not necessarily a failure for what the designer had in mind. Regardless; poor expansion in milk jugs = useless to me. Penetration is just an interesting side note at this point; something to consider in the final stages of development, when choosing between first and second place winners.

If I were tackling this job, I'd get a few .38 cal bullets, 158-180 grain hollow points cast from dead-soft lead. Soft lead WILL expand at 800 fps MV. They'd be intended, of course for heavy .357 magnum loads, and would normally be hard-cast. I'd need a relationship with the caster so that he would 1) cast some from pure lead for me and 2) size them to .355-356.

After that, it would be a matter of determining just how fast I could safely launch them. A 180gr @ 800 fps is a power factor of 144....doable in a 9mm with conservative data. But that would depend on what I found in uncharted territory with respect to a suitable powder, getting the gun to feed, etc. Not for the novice reloader for sure. If I couldn't reach 800 fps, I'd be home early.

Here's what I did with low-velocity, pure lead HP's. Leading shut me down after 15-20 rounds but, hey, who wouldn't feel comfortable with just 10 of these?

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

It didn't do nearly as well as a .38. 927 fps SHOULD be enough velocity to get good expansion.

From the data:

"The diameter of the first bullet was .316" and .379" at largest and smallest dimension. The diameter of the second bullet .376" and .393"."

When I set off those 10 rounds I made, I will put a couple of the .38s and known nines.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

NOVX makes this claim, a 9mm 65gr ARX bullet at 1655 fps.

Exclusive: .45 ACP Power in a 9mm Package? NovX Next-Gen AmmoAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

LOL! If I do more after this series, I'll probably use water jugs.

I think I will need to try the Vhitavuori Powder. And I should get a box of the Double Tap ammo. The experiment justifies the expenditure.

Boy, I should have thought that even implying any competition between two calibers was going to open a can of worms. I should have worded it, "Can the 9mm Luger be made more effective by using a slow heavy bullet?"

I found a video on the Double Tap 9mm 165 grain jhp. Turns out it is a 115 gr hollow point over a 50 grain slug penetrator. Not quite the same Idea. But seeing that they think a 165 gr round is useful makes me feel a little more that I'm on track.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"