Powder recommendation for 38 +P?

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Pantera Mike

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I have a Model 686 that is the wife’s home defense gun. She doesn’t want to shoot full 357 Mag so I am trying to brew up a good 38 +P load, using 158gr JHP in 38 special cases.

Load manuals led me to believe that 2400 would be a good choice, but my experience (10.0 grains, with the aforementioned 158gr JHP and magnum primers) is that it’s not burning clean, and leaving lots of unburned powder flakes.

I currently have WW231, 296, Blue Dot and 2400 in the house but I suspect there is another powder that is better suited to 38 Special +P. I have been very rigid about avoiding the latest generation of modern powders, and I think it’s time I broaden my horizons.

Looking forward to words of wisdom and sub-magnum +P load data for 158gr JHP.

EDIT: All other things being equal, a low-flash powder would be preferable.

THANKS!
 
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Try Accurate #5. There is load data for this powder for 38 special AND 357 Magnum, so you can load from the minimum 38 special all the way to the maximum charge for 357 Magnum. I have what I call my "Magnum Lites" which puts a 158 grain Hornady XTP out of a 4 inch barrel at 900 fps. For me it's just the ticket for when I want to run some "magnums" thru my highly cherished 1972 vintage model 19-3.

BTW, I would suggest using 357 Magnum cases. You'll reduce the pressure a nudge and you wont have to deal with the powder ring left in the cylinder by the shorter 38 special cases.
 
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Look into Unique and I think you may like what you find. It does very well for 38+P but in a 686 7 grains in a 357 magnum case under your 158 jhp may just be what you're looking for. Sort of a "magnum light". Not a lot of blast and flash but it should get around 1200 fps and shoots fairly clean too. I know a lot of folks don't like Unique but it really works well in a lot of different loads and in some calibers it's as good or better than some of the new whiz-bang powders IMHO.
 
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From published data 6.0 grs of Power Pistol or Hodgdon Longshot will
yield over 1,000 fps out of a 4" barrel with a 158 gr cast SWC. My own
tests do the same with 5.1 grs of 231. These are +P loads and stay
within +P limits. If you choose 158 gr JHPs for +P loads you have to
realize that you are not likely to get much if any expansion at 1,000
fps.
 
You never said what bbl length your 686 is. Typically, the shorter the bbl, the more attention to detail is required.

Things like cylinder gap come into play taking +/- 10fps per 1/1000" of gap. Same goes for using 38spl cases in a 357, you'll loose +/- 10fps. Doesn't sound like much but if you have a 6/1000th cylinder gap and are using 38spl cases/loads in your 357 expect to loose +/ 70fps from the published data.

Bullet selection is also huge with plated being the slowest, then jacketed and finely cast/coated bullets. There is easily as much as 50fps+ difference in the same loads by something as simple as a bullet choice.

Add to that the difference in bullet designs play a huge roll. A couple years back I did a bunch of testing 38spl p+ loads in a 2" snubnosed revolver. I used these 8 bullets pictured below along with 2 others for a total of 10 different test bullets.
0A0Ga7O.jpg


At the end of the day these 4 bullets consistently out performed the other 6 with 5 different powders tested.
vlZBK9y.jpg


What they have in common is (hbwc loaded backwards) that the bullets base/body/bottom drive band is larger then the rest of the bullets and they sealed the cylinders/bbl better letting less pressure go buy to the front drive bands and past the front of the bullet. There was as much as 70+fps difference in those bullets and the worst performing bullet {top picture bottom row far right).

If your shooting 38spl's in a 8 3/8" bbl'd 686 it makes a huge difference compared to a 2 1/2" bbl'd 686. If your thought is to keep recoil down and performance up I'd be looking at a rimrock lead gas check 158gr hp along with 6.3 gr of power pistol or bluedot in 38spl cases.
 
Unique will get you there , but not current load data . In older manuals 5.4 grs was the +P 38special load using a 158gr bullet . One of my favorites is 7.0grs of HS-6 with a 158gr cast bullet . It needs a magnum primer , CCI 550 etc . I got the HS-6 load from one of the forum members here years ago . I hope this helps , Regards Paul
 
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OP says he has Blue Dot on hand. Excellent powder for high performance in .38 Special (also 9X19, .38 Super, .357 magnum, and several others). In addition to very good velocities Blue Dot provides clean burning and reduced muzzle flash (compared to many others).

Personally, I would prefer a good cast SWC over the jacketed bullet. A quick reference to the Lyman handbooks shows significantly higher muzzle velocities (hence muzzle energy as well), which is understandable because of the greatly reduced friction in the bore between lead and copper jacket materials.

Lyman's data shows a top load of 7.8 grains Blue Dot for 919FPS (4" test barrel) with 158-grain cast, at 16,400 CUP (standard .38 Special pressure, not +P). Compare that to 7.1 grains Blue Dot for 721FPS with 158-grain JHP, at 16,300 CUP (also standard pressure load). That amounts to 198FPS increase (27% greater) comparing cast bullet to jacketed, and that is without even stepping into +P territory.

I used Blue Dot extensively years ago, then it became difficult to find for a number of years. It was my favorite for performance loads in several handgun calibers. Since then I went back to Unique (due to general availability as much as any other factor), and my .38 Spl. +P load has been a 150 LSWC-HP with 5.4 grains Unique. That load shoots very well and is easily controllable in the medium-frame revolvers.

NOTE: Do your own research. Please don't accept my handloading experience as definitive for your uses. I have offered the above only as examples for comparison. Your methods and results may vary.
 
Power pistol if you have it on hand. I personally stray away from blue dot (blue dirt), it doesn't perform well until you get near max loads and its been very dirty to shoot for me.

I had the misfortune of using it as my first handgun powder and had all sorts of problems with it, I thought I was doing something wrong until I got up near my max loads.
 
Well, if you are interested in a trying a whiz-bang powder, I recommend Vihtavuori and specifically their N340. It is a versatile powder and can be used in almost all standard calibers. VV shows 5.2 hitting 856fps and max of 5.8 hitting 1017fps for a 158gr HP/XTP.

N340 is Very accurate and clean burning. More expensive powder, but you get what you pay for. The extra cost per round is negligible.


Prescut
 
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HS-6 would be my #1 choice for .38 Spl +P, full charge under Hornady XTP. This is actually my absolute favorite load to take out and shoot. Extremely accurate with excellent performance on target, minimal recoil, minimal flash, very good performing but well-mannered load.

VV N340 would be a very close #2 choice but increased cost and lack of availability relegate it to second place.

OP specified JHP, Hornady XTP would be an excellent performer over a full charge of HS-6 as a +P .38 Spl load. I would personally choose 125 gr XTP but the 158 gr XTP will work wonderfully.

2400 is best suited at full charge for medium magnum load
W296/H110 is for HOT magnums and is super temperamental at reduced charge weights
My experience with BD and W231 are limited as I was never able to get good results and stopped using them for anything but fertilizer on the lawn.
 
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WW231 - No complaints for a hot 38 load
296 - no experience
Blue Dot - Burns a bit dirty as a +P load but does well in the 357mag range
2400 - probably what I would go with out of this group but lots of flash.

I am using CFEpistol in a low end 357mag load for plinking coated cast 125gr and 158 heavy plated bullets. It burns a bit dirty if I drop the load but I can push it much faster if necessary. My other favorites are Unique (slow 38 all the way to hot mag loads)and Blue Dot (Mag loads).
 
Bosquebass said:
Look into Unique and I think you may like what you find. It does very well for 38+P but in a 686 7 grains in a 357 magnum case under your 158 jhp may just be what you're looking for. Sort of a "magnum light". Not a lot of blast and flash but it should get around 1200 fps and shoots fairly clean too. I know a lot of folks don't like Unique but it really works well in a lot of different loads and in some calibers it's as good or better than some of the new whiz-bang powders IMHO.
Click to expand...


Respectfully, 7.0 grains of Unique under a 158 gr. JHP in a .357 mag case will not get you close to 1200 FPS. I load that exact combo and get an average of 950 FPS from a 4" BBL. Alliant says 7.7 grs. of Unique with a 158 gr. Speer Gold Dot yields 1040 FPS in a 10 " test BBL. Sierra says 7.7 grs of Unique under their 158 gr. JHC in .357 mag cases results in 1050 FPS from a 6 " BBL and 8.2 grs gets 1100 FPS.
 
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Pantera Mike said:
I have a Model 686 that is the wife’s home defense gun. She doesn’t want to shoot full 357 Mag so I am trying to brew up a good 38 +P load, using 158gr JHP in 38 special cases.

Load manuals led me to believe that 2400 would be a good choice, but my experience (10.0 grains, with the aforementioned 158gr JHP and magnum primers) is that it’s not burning clean, and leaving lots of unburned powder flakes.

I currently have WW231, 296, Blue Dot and 2400 in the house but I suspect there is another powder that is better suited to 38 Special +P. I have been very rigid about avoiding the latest generation of modern powders, and I think it’s time I broaden my horizons.

Looking forward to words of wisdom and sub-magnum +P load data for 158gr JHP.

EDIT: All other things being equal, a low-flash powder would be preferable.

THANKS!
Click to expand...


Hi Mike. For my wife's 4" Ruger Security Six I load 7.0 grs. of Unique under a bulk 158 gr. JHP in .357 mag cases. I have a hunch that it may be suitable. It averages 950 FPS and while it's a little stouter than 38 SP +P it is still mild from medium to med. large steel framed revolvers. As someone else mentioned no carbon rings left behind in chambers and less pressure concerns using mag cases vs the shorter .38 cases. Best regards.
 
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10.0 grs. of 2400 under cast 150 gr. SWCHP's yields 1062 fps out of my 4" Model 10's and wonderful 25 yd. accuracy. Since the load works so well, it never occurred to me to look for unburned powder.

I would suggest a subscription to Load Data | The Best Reloading Manual Online. Therein you'll find reams of .38 Special +P data not only from loading manuals but from the pages of Handloader magazine. Since subscribing a few years ago, I haven't bought a single reloading manual, and I guess I won't ever again.
 
10.0 grs. of 2400 under cast 150 gr. SWCHP's yields 1062 fps out of my 4" Model 10's and Model 15 and wonderful 25 yd. accuracy. Since the load works so well, it never occurred to me to look for unburned powder.

I would suggest a subscription to Load Data | The Best Reloading Manual Online. Therein you'll find reams of .38 Special +P data not only from loading manuals but from the pages of Handloader magazine. Since subscribing a few years ago, I haven't bought a single reloading manual, and I guess I won't ever again.

Above mentioned load at 25 yds. offhand.

EAz7Ybj.jpg
 
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Most of the medium speed pistol powder will work well.

IMO some are AA#5, HS-6, CFE-Pistol, Unique, Universal, True Blue, LongShot, BE-86, Power Pistol and many others.
 
Thanks all. My 686 has a 4-inch barrel, ideal for a ‘house gun’ IMHO.

I have thousands of 158gr generic JHP bullets on hand that I use for 357/44 B&D and 357 magnum, as well as a bunch of 158gr Hornady JHP I save for use in 357 Auto Mag. And I have thousands of 158gr SWC I use in 357 mag as well. So I’m kind of wedded to that bullet weight, although I suppose I could try lighter weights.

Sounds like AA#5 or HS6 is what I should be trying. I recall reading that AA meters extremely well from a progressive press powder loader (Dillon). Is HS6 similar in that regard? And is one or the other likely to result in less muzzle flash?

Thanks again for the words of wisdom!
 
Personally, I like Power Pistol for +P loads using 158 gr lead/cast bullets. However, 158 gr JHP bullets cannot be driven at high enough velocities using published 38 Spl + P data to ensure expansion. I would load the 158 gr JHPs in 357 Mag cases using 357 Magnum mid range power loads (1,000-1,100 FPS). Alliant Powder has some nice 357 Mag mid range loads for the 158 gr JHP using Power Pistol, BE86 and Unique on their website. You could approach 1,000 FPS with these in your 4 inch revolver.
 
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