COLT 45 SHORT??
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smithra_66
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45 Schofield?
Ivan the Butcher
Member
There is a cartridge that is a 45 Colt rimmed cartridge, but trimmed to 45 ACP length, and used 45 ACP loading data.
Of course, don't forget the post WWI Remington round 45 Auto Rim, it also uses 45 ACP loading data.
There is a early 1900's cartridge that is 45 Schofield in length, but has a 45 Colt rim. Called 45 US, (issued with Colt M-1909 revolvers) it uses its own loading data, but it is what Col. Thompson based the 45 ACP Ballistics on, so very similar in power.
In a buy out 12 years ago, I bought 750 rounds of 45 Schofield reloads. I shoot them fine in my Ruger Vaqueros, they also function and feed fine in my Rossi 92 and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy. Depending on you magazine length they allow 2 to 6 additional shots!
Ivan
Of course, don't forget the post WWI Remington round 45 Auto Rim, it also uses 45 ACP loading data.
There is a early 1900's cartridge that is 45 Schofield in length, but has a 45 Colt rim. Called 45 US, (issued with Colt M-1909 revolvers) it uses its own loading data, but it is what Col. Thompson based the 45 ACP Ballistics on, so very similar in power.
In a buy out 12 years ago, I bought 750 rounds of 45 Schofield reloads. I shoot them fine in my Ruger Vaqueros, they also function and feed fine in my Rossi 92 and my Marlin 1894 Cowboy. Depending on you magazine length they allow 2 to 6 additional shots!
Ivan
Walter Rego
Member
As a current factory load no. But Starline does offer specialized brass in what they call their .45 Cowboy Special, which is the same length as the standard .45 ACP (0.898") but has a .45 Colt diameter rim (0.540").
You can also buy .45 S&W brass (Schofield) which has a slightly larger case head diameter than .45 Colt which generally doesn't cause any problems in a .45 Colt chamber but a has shorter case length (1.090" to 1.100") than the .45 Colt which has a case length of 1.285". And the rim diameter of the .45 S&W is supposed to be 0.522" but I believe Starline uses the standard .45 Colt rim diameter
You might want to check with Starline to see what the rim diameter actually is of their .45 S&W brass. If smaller than the .45 Colt it shouldn't cause issues in most single action revolvers but may slip off the extractor in a .45 Colt rifle.
In any case Starline is out of stock at the moment :-(
You can also buy .45 S&W brass (Schofield) which has a slightly larger case head diameter than .45 Colt which generally doesn't cause any problems in a .45 Colt chamber but a has shorter case length (1.090" to 1.100") than the .45 Colt which has a case length of 1.285". And the rim diameter of the .45 S&W is supposed to be 0.522" but I believe Starline uses the standard .45 Colt rim diameter
You might want to check with Starline to see what the rim diameter actually is of their .45 S&W brass. If smaller than the .45 Colt it shouldn't cause issues in most single action revolvers but may slip off the extractor in a .45 Colt rifle.
In any case Starline is out of stock at the moment :-(
scattershot
Member
Yeah, it’s the Cowboy Special. It’s a rimmed .45 Colt case trimmed to 45 ACP length. Looks to me like a solution to a non existent problem.
Yes there was a 45 Short Colt.
As Ivan the Butcher mentions, this cartridge came out around 1900. It is 100% identical to the 45 Long Colt but shorter as you can see.
This cartridge was manufactured until some time after World War 1
In fact this offering is part of the reason that the older 45 Colt cartridge began being called the 45 Long Colt. You see both cartridge casings said 45 Colt on the case head. This is a 45 Short Colt pictured here
So you would walk into the General Store and ask for a box of "45 Colt cartridges" and the shopkeeper would ask if you wanted "Longs or Shorts ?"
The modern production Cowboy Special that Walter Rego and scattershot refer to could never be mistaken for 45 Colt as you can see from the head stamp
image courtesy of Starline
As Ivan the Butcher mentions, this cartridge came out around 1900. It is 100% identical to the 45 Long Colt but shorter as you can see.
This cartridge was manufactured until some time after World War 1
In fact this offering is part of the reason that the older 45 Colt cartridge began being called the 45 Long Colt. You see both cartridge casings said 45 Colt on the case head. This is a 45 Short Colt pictured here
So you would walk into the General Store and ask for a box of "45 Colt cartridges" and the shopkeeper would ask if you wanted "Longs or Shorts ?"
The modern production Cowboy Special that Walter Rego and scattershot refer to could never be mistaken for 45 Colt as you can see from the head stamp
image courtesy of Starline
As Walter Rego mentioned, the original 45 S&W/Government/Schofield (aka 45 Short Colt) had a larger diameter rim (.522") than the 45 Long Colt's rim (.502") of the time.
The larger rim was needed for the S&W's #3 extractor star.
Handloader #325's article, "All American .45s" by Mike Venturino, details this subject & more.
He documents that some boxed Remington-UMC .45 Colt ammo was head-stamped 45 Colt but while it had the shorter 45 S&W's case length (1.100") it had the 45 Colt's smaller rim diameter (.502").
In 1909, for the Colt New Service revolver, they upped the 45 Colt's rim diameter to .534", even though the 45 Auto cartridge was just around the corner in development.
However, these rims would not allow them to be loaded in the old SAA revolvers as the rims were too wide & interfered with the adjacent chamber's round.
They would ultimately evolve into having today's rim diameter (.512", SAAMI), in-between it's original size & that of the 45 S&W's.
My Starline 45 Colt rims measure .510"
.
The larger rim was needed for the S&W's #3 extractor star.
Handloader #325's article, "All American .45s" by Mike Venturino, details this subject & more.
He documents that some boxed Remington-UMC .45 Colt ammo was head-stamped 45 Colt but while it had the shorter 45 S&W's case length (1.100") it had the 45 Colt's smaller rim diameter (.502").
In 1909, for the Colt New Service revolver, they upped the 45 Colt's rim diameter to .534", even though the 45 Auto cartridge was just around the corner in development.
However, these rims would not allow them to be loaded in the old SAA revolvers as the rims were too wide & interfered with the adjacent chamber's round.
They would ultimately evolve into having today's rim diameter (.512", SAAMI), in-between it's original size & that of the 45 S&W's.
My Starline 45 Colt rims measure .510"
.
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DWalt
Member
There was another rimmed short .45 revolver cartridge not mentioned, which was one made up specifically for use in the 1907 U. S. Army pistol trials. It was called (unofficially) the .45 S&W Special or the ".45 Model of 1906" (and sometimes the .45 Frankford), but it was never adopted by the U.S. military or sold commercially on the civilian market. Its case length was about 0.92". It is purely in the realm of serious cartridge collectors today as examples are hard to come by. Some were made by Frankford Arsenal, but most were made by UMC, as Frankford had quality problems making it. There is considerable information available about it, some being on this forum. Note that it is not the same as the .45 Schofield or the .45 M1909 (which is simply the full-length .45 Colt case with a larger diameter rim).
Regarding the .45 Colt Government pictures above, I'd bet those are actually .45 Schofield, which is just a shorter cased .45 Colt. The "Government" part comes in as after the adoption of the Schofield revolver, for a long time, the only .45 military revolver cartridge in U.S. service was the .45 Schofield (AKA .45 S&W), which was used in both the Schofield and Colt revolvers. What is their case length? The Schofield (or .45 S&W) had a case length of 1.1".
I have no personal familiarity with the .45 "Cowboy" cartridge, but I understand it has a rimmed .45 Colt case shortened to the length of the .45 ACP case. For use with smokeless powder the shorter case would be somewhat more efficient than the .45 Colt or .45 Schofield cases, both of which were designed for use with Black Powder.
Regarding the .45 Colt Government pictures above, I'd bet those are actually .45 Schofield, which is just a shorter cased .45 Colt. The "Government" part comes in as after the adoption of the Schofield revolver, for a long time, the only .45 military revolver cartridge in U.S. service was the .45 Schofield (AKA .45 S&W), which was used in both the Schofield and Colt revolvers. What is their case length? The Schofield (or .45 S&W) had a case length of 1.1".
I have no personal familiarity with the .45 "Cowboy" cartridge, but I understand it has a rimmed .45 Colt case shortened to the length of the .45 ACP case. For use with smokeless powder the shorter case would be somewhat more efficient than the .45 Colt or .45 Schofield cases, both of which were designed for use with Black Powder.
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.45 Colt Gov. ..................
well it that is'nt just plumb handy !!
It makes the .45 join the club with 38/357.......... 44spl/44mag etc
for a nice light practice round, swap out load.
well it that is'nt just plumb handy !!
It makes the .45 join the club with 38/357.......... 44spl/44mag etc
for a nice light practice round, swap out load.
Source
The origin was actually from the Black powder Era. Different Black powder loads and different weight bullets would require different length brass. Simple as that.
Black powder loads require that you seat the bullet firmly against the powder load. Therefore case length varied.
There were several commercially made loads for the original black powder 45 Colt Single Action Army. From 250 grain, 230, and 225 grain Were fairly common bullet weights. There actually were other lighter bullets also but not as common. Each would have a different overall case length.
Longs and shorts were so common during that time the term became universal to refer to a longer case length vs a shorter case length.
22 short, 22 Long
32 short, 32 Long
38 short, 38 Long
41 short, 41 Long
Etc etc
The truth is if you study antique ammo? Case lengths were often different in the same caliber!
Murph
The origin was actually from the Black powder Era. Different Black powder loads and different weight bullets would require different length brass. Simple as that.
Black powder loads require that you seat the bullet firmly against the powder load. Therefore case length varied.
There were several commercially made loads for the original black powder 45 Colt Single Action Army. From 250 grain, 230, and 225 grain Were fairly common bullet weights. There actually were other lighter bullets also but not as common. Each would have a different overall case length.
Longs and shorts were so common during that time the term became universal to refer to a longer case length vs a shorter case length.
22 short, 22 Long
32 short, 32 Long
38 short, 38 Long
41 short, 41 Long
Etc etc
The truth is if you study antique ammo? Case lengths were often different in the same caliber!
Murph
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