For those of us that didn't know, and I include myself in this group, Jack O'Connor used to be the Shooting Editor, of Outdoor Life.

Lately I ran across some of his writings and want to ask what you know about the man.

At the time of the publications I am reading, I wasn't into reloading/hand-loading. Some of you very well may have been. I would like to hear your opinions of the man and his writings.

We all know Elmer and Skeeter, Major Nonte and Dean Grennell.

What about Jack?

I grew up reading O'connor too, though I didn't follow his writings as much as some of the others mentioned here. I wasn't that much of a hunter and I used to go to the details in his storys more focused on the rifles he used, the gunsmiths who built them, etc.

I do remember they had a few of his books in the library in High School (mid 60's). Wonder if they'd dare do that now.

Stay on subject, please. We are discussing Jack not Elmer.

If you want, we can start another thread discussing the pro's and con's of each gun rag writer. In this thread though, stay on topic.

I have a reason to ask this, there is another thread coming in relation to this one.

Thanks.

What sticks in my mind about O'Connor and Page is their objectivity, modesty, and accuracy of observation.

Many other writers of their time were of such advanced ego and dedication to special interests that their writing was more like a Ned Buntline dime novel. Chas Askins sticks in my mind since he published article after article about his pet "wildcat rifle" projects, each of which was "so vastly superior to ordinary cartridges as to render them all instantly obsolete." (YAWN)

__________________
Science plus Art

I don't remember where I read it but I believe Mr. O'Connor liked the K22. I seem to remember he carried or at least had it close at hand most of the time.

__________________
Mike
USMCR 84-87, USAF 87-07

For reasons about which I am not completely clear, I did not spend much time with O'Connor's writings as a young, budding, full-time gun nut. Like most, I've always viewed him as a well-respected writer and a gentleman, and staunch advocate for the .270. My development (deterioration? ) as a shooter, hunter and reloader was much more heavily influenced by the writings of Skeeter Skelton, George Nonte, Charles Askins, Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith.

BTW, I've seen copies of a couple of Elmer Keith's "first draft" manuscripts. He was almost illiterate; he couldn't spell or punctuate to save his life. Editor's nightmare, but his experiences were priceless. I've been given to understand that O'Connor's writing needed little editing, but I have not seen proof of that.

Skip, I'm guessing that the article to which you refer is "Pressures and the Handloader". It was reprinted in Speer Number 10-my first manual. It is indeed a good article.

O'Connor's pressure article first appeared in the Speer #4 manual published in'59. At that time it was credited as being reprinted from the June '56 OL.

Jack was given credit in the Speer manuals from #1 in '54. I hope most of you realize that he lived "just minutes away" from the Speer facilities and was a frequent hunting partner of Vernon Speer. He often wrote that he utilized their facilities on numerous occasions.

Good shooting.

__________________
Good shooting.

Jack O'Connor was an excellent writer and an accomplished hunter. We see his caliber very infrequently in gun writing circles.

__________________
195th Session FBINA

He was a college English professor, or teacher in high school. I don’t remember which. Was reportedly difficult to deal with at times. I read many of his stories growing up.

It is true he really put the .270 on the map.

Been told that more than once.

__________________
Joshua 1:9

Read Jack's articles religiously as a Kid. Had the requisite 270 and shot my fist antelope and ony Dall sheep with it. Used a pre War M-70 375 H&H on my 1st moose(41 mag on my 2nd) . I met both O'Connor and Keith at a Remington Seminar introducing new guns. They didn't seem to have any animosity between them and talked in a friendly manner. O'Connor was a fairly sour individual towards me(the guide) and kind of talked down to me a bit. Seemed to have a fixation on how much money I made(not much in those days...Oh hell, not much ever). Keith was a pretty good story teller and an easy friendly person. Both however were very good
shotgun shooters and didn't waste ammo. But we were shooting Canada geese at pretty much spitting range. The other writer in the group was either Pete Brown or an outdoor writer for Argosy? don't really remember. All seemed to get along. O'Connor couldn't seem to wait getting through the shooting of Remington's new products(lunch and a drink?). Keith and the other writer seemed to have a good time shooting all the new stuff. O'Connor's attitude towards the small folk kind of turned me off him as he had always been my favorite writer along with Corey Ford and Robt Ruark. All many years ago...in a Galaxy far far away

I'm evidently older than you.I read a great deal of Jack O'Conner's writing.

In my opinion,he was one of the more knowledgeable of the gunwriters in that day.He is known for his admiration of the 270 Winchester but yet he was far more diverse than that.He wrote a great deal about using the 416 Rigby,for instance.He was an educated man and his rifle and handload advice was in a very straight forward way with no B.S.

He was also a man with integrity.He and Keith had an ongoing feud which lasted for years.I mention his integrity because he challenged Keith on a lot of his statements when practically no one else would.Keith was a rock star of gunwriters and to buck him was not healthy for a gunwriter's career.

In spite of the fact that Keith is still placed on a pedestal to this day,those who knew him knew that relating the truth was sometimes optional with him.(that's the nicest way I can put it).I know a man who lives in Idaho who knew Keith personally and I'll spare you the adjectives he uses in describing Keith.However people need their heroes.

In my opinion,O'Conner was a big cut above average.I believe that he was honest in his reports and this is NOT something I can say of all the gunwriters,then or now.

John,

I suppose you don't have to be old enough to have watched the Cardinals play at Sportsman's Park on Grand Avenue, but being that old certainly increases one's chances of having met Keith and/or O'Connor.

It should come as no surprise that O'Connor was the more polished writer. After all, he was an English teacher!

There are also many who don't have a clue about how much Elmer actually wrote in the way of private communications and that he did it all on a manual typewriter with no "white-out". Typos were common, especially without time to go back and do the corrections needed before moving on to the next response.

The thing that strikes me as being extraordinary was Elmer's accessibility. He really didn't seem to have any reservations about people calling or writing and usually had time to devote to them. The comments I've heard have been along the lines of it being like talking to a grandfather/mentor, not a celebrity.

Cool, Paul! That is indeed more easily decipherable than the couple of missives I've seen.

Jack O'Connor lived up at Lewiston. I was a rifle HUNTER long before I was a LEO and got into handguns, Hence his writings were much more germain to me than manuy others.

The thing I enjoyed about O'Connor was he talked hunting and the guns used were just part of a whole. Yes, he liked the 270. He also was perfectly happy with the 7x57 and advocated it's use and it's what Elinore, his wife used.

I read hunting books. All this gun stuff is simply so I can shoot and hunt. Hence O'Connors stories of hunting Coues deer and sheep and were things I read because I figured I might actually some day do them, which I have.

He was still alive when I got out of the service and the several of the older ISP troopers stationed in Lewiston were shooting buddies. I got to go shoot a Rock Chuck or two a couple of times by tagging along and keeping my yap shut.

He's well worth reading. I think I have all of his books. I have to admitt never having read a single magazine article he ever wrote, or any of the rest of them until I was at least into my mid 20s. Gun/outdoor magazines aren't something your family spends money on if you live smack dab in the middle of the 4th largest county in the US.

RWT

Skip,
I think that technically Elmer was way ahead of Cactus Jack- .44 Special development,.38/44 work, High Power competitor, arsenal work in WWII,etc.

Simply stated, Keith was a shooter, Jack was a hunter. That's probably the way Outdoor Life wanted it. Jack seems to have had better "sponsors".

With all due respect to Charles A. Skelton, and I love his work, he wasn't in the same league as the other two. He was a great story teller, but, by his own admission, was not an experimenter. Let's call him a great Pistolero.

John Taffin does has done great work for the past 30 years, mostly handguns, and Brian Pearce is excellent also. Got to admire anyone who's built two copies of #5!!! Of course, both are admitted Keith and Skelton fanatics.

Good shooting.

__________________
Good shooting.

I grew up reading Jack O'Connor articles and books and although I can't say I was heavily influenced by his writing, I still very much respected his experience and opinion.

IMO, his writings about the 7x57 and .270 are timeless, and equally appropriate today as they were in 1959. "Sheep and Sheep Hunting" remains the definitive work on the subject, IMO.

O'Connor wasn't a "magnum" fan, and also IMO if he were still around he'd probably consider the "short magnums" as being solutions to non-existant problems.

O'Connor was quoted as saying that he only ever wrote a dozen articles during his career, and just kept changing the first and last paragraphs. I appreciate self-deprecation in a person.

As for Keith, he had a lot of experience upon which he drew his writings. I do recall the words of Thomas G Samworth of the Small Arms Technical Publishing Co, who published Keith's first books in the mid 30s, "big Game Rifles and Cartridges" and "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads." Samworth was not too kind when speaking about Elmer's writing, and said that the book manuscripts needed so much editing that "Keith was the author in name only." Be that opinion as it may, Keith was experienced and influential and his legacy lives on in high-power large caliber handguns and their use to this day.

Noah

__________________
Nicht mehr als 30 Zeichen

For those of us that didn't know, and I include myself in this group, Jack O'Connor used to be the Shooting Editor, of Outdoor Life.

Lately I ran across some of his writings and want to ask what you know about the man.

At the time of the publications I am reading, I wasn't into reloading/hand-loading. Some of you very well may have been. I would like to hear your opinions of the man and his writings.

We all know Elmer and Skeeter, Major Nonte and Dean Grennell.

What about Jack?

I really enjoyed reading Jack O'Conner's musings in Outdoor life in my youth. My first hardbound books on shooting were authored by him too and are still in my library.

__________________
Keep your powder dry.

In my younger days I read every article I could find from Jack, and he is the reason that I bought a Win. M70 in .270 caliber in the 60's when I was in the Navy over seas, to bring back home to hunt with.

His favorite 130 gr bullet load was pushed with 49 grs of IMR 4064 and it turned out to be my most accurate load in my rifle, even though 4350 & 4831 did get higher fps in my testings.

He also liked the heavy 150 gr for Elk hunting with a full load of 4831 but my rifle did not do well with this bullet but it did very well with the 140 gr Nosler Accubond at 2940 fps with IMR4831.

Back then they also had a large 170 gr JRN lead tip for Moose but I don't think this bullet is still around today but it did have major ft/lbs that did the job at close range.

He was a great writer & hunter that put a smile on my face.

In years past I read a lot of Keith and O'Connor and while both seemed very knowledgeable the main differences I noted were their choices of rifles for big game. O'Connor felt that if you had a 270 and 375 you were ready for anything the world had to offer; Keith vehemently disagreed and felt that you needed bigger bores for any of the 'big 5' and bigger than the 270 for medium game. I do recall one article by O'Connor where he stated that a 270 or 30-36 was perfectly adequate for lion or leopard. Having read a lot of safari articles, I doubt that he could have gotten too many PWH's in Africa to agree with that. Also having received personal answers from both these gents the ones from O'Connor were grammatically perfect and these from Keith needed a lot of polishing up. Both , however were very excellent and I treasure their books, especially those from Keith.

Very old thread from 2009 that Mike brought back from the dead!

Jack and Elmer were two very different people for sure. IMO both of them stretched the truth a bit. One was a story teller and the other a writer.

The OP "Skip" only made it 3 years before he got Banned!

O’Connor, Kieth, Jordan and several other gun writers who are no longer with us, actually lived what they wrote about. We are seeing the end of an era. Now it seems any buddy with a cowboy hat and a pair of aviator sun glasses can be a gun writer. A plus is a beard.
I’ve most of O’Connor’s books and still use his 270 & 30/06 loads. I never had the 7x57 fever, and hate goats & sheep.
My favorite O’Connor quote is in one of his books. The chapter on Scopes, he allows their are two kinds of people who take apart scopes. Professionals and fools. I set out immediately to prove him correct.

I read all the people mentioned so far in this thread when I began reading gun material about 1962. I didn't start handloading until about late 1964 and the Speer #6 was my first handloading manual. I still have it, but there are at least forty or more other manuals to go along with it. I probably read the O'Connor pressure article at least once.

Another writer of the same era who probably wrote more articles and may have written for more years than O'Connor and most of the rest was Bob Hagel - tied with Ken Waters (also of the same era) as my favorite gun writers. Hagel hunted extensively, but only on this continent, I think. Many of his handloading and hunting articles remain timely today.

We have a few good writers today, just like we did years ago, despite what some may think about today's gun journalists. The mediocre ones have always been around.

I started my subscription to Outdoor Life in 1963 and it's hard to fully communicate how I looked forward to receiving a new issue every month. The first article I'd read was whatever Jack O'Connor was spouting. Sometimes more interesting than other times but always informative; the only sheep hunting I ever did was vicariously through Jack's exploits. He had a way of transporting you to the hunt be it with the Shah of Iran or a Mexican guide in South Sonora. I lapped it all up with a big spoon and never owned a .270 or a 7mm as a result and never shot an African antelope "from behind so clean it didn't leave a hole." That story still makes me laugh today.

It was obvious from Jack's writing that he did not suffer fools easily, didn't come across as Mr. Warmth, and could be quite opinionated. I liked that about him as he seemed to call them like he saw them. When Jim Carmichael took over for Jack I was disappointed and missed him. Jim is a very fine writer and authority in his own right but he just wasn't Jack and I didn't "grow-up" with him. I've collected Jack's books and reread portions of them from time to time - still find them very enjoyable.

__________________
Ordnung muss sein
SWHF #789

I think I have every book he published. I hunted in AZ in the 70's so naturally I read his stuff. He was by far a better outdoor writer than most of his contemporaries at the time.

__________________
That's just somebody talkin.

This is a very interesting thread to be sure. One thing that I get out of this and the many readings I have done is that Keith and Askins both,while a bit on the wild side, have had a much broader horizon of experience than O'Connor. The latter was the real refined gentleman and former were the rough riders. All of them as well as the others mentioned are most definitely worth reading.

Elmer wrote one time of killing 13 rabbits with one pistol shot. Then he admitted it was a pregnant female. Elmer keith was man from the frontier who went to work doing a mans work at an age when it would have done him good to still be in school. His wife was a school teacher and I often wondered if he would have been able to write some of his early books without her. I got a letter from him in answer to one I wrote him when I was a young Sea Bee overseas and the typing had many errors including .45 Folt. It meant a lot to me that he cared enough to reply and there are a lot of others who got them too. I have read many times that folks went to his house and were invited in and treated as instant friends.

__________________
dd884
JMHO-YMMV

I grew up reading Outdoor Life and reading Jack O'Connor. I guess I read my Dads issues starting in the late 50's when I could read. I have a lot of his books and still read them from time to time. I really liked O'Connor but same as anyone he had his preferences and stuck with them. Elmer had his too. I enjoyed Skeeter Skelton and Bill Jordan as well.
These days I only take three magazines. Handloader, Rifle and Fur, Fish and Game. Of the three Rifle is the least interest to me but can never seem to let it go. Fur Fish and Game is like the outdoor magazines of the past. No mountain bike stories or any of that pseudo outdoor stuff. Mostly ordinary folks sharing their experiences with a mix of regulars and their monthly pieces. It will be the one I keep. They will be delivering it after I go to the happy hunting grounds.

As many have alluded to here, I don't recall a Jack O'Connor article when he wasn't guided. I recall several of Elmer Keiths when he guided others. Just from that, I know I would prefer to hunt with EK.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

I believe I have read almost every book that Jack O'connor ever wrote. Hw was not overley opinionated, loved beautefully classic stocked rifles and shotguns and had the hunting credentials to backup his firearms choices. He was not a handgun affianado but concentrated on rifles and shotguns. His biggest gripe was of a writer of note who had made one safari to Africa and then wrote several books related to African hunting and firearms. I always assumed he was referring to Robert Roarke. Also, he was a writer from my home state, as was Ted Trueblood, Elmer Kieth and Bob Hagel.

Julian

I have read a couple of books by him, one was a gift and the other I bought used from a library, My shooting interests are quite a bit different from his writings. Anyway, I'd heard a long time ago he wasn't what he was supposed to be. Where ever it was and from who ever said it, they claimed he had other people do most of the work on his projects and he just wrote about it and liked to get in front of the camera all he could. I don't think this came from Elmer Keith either becuase I've only read a couple of his books too, and this was way before that.

I guess this isn't really an opinion of him, I've never formed one of my own.

I think you're right Frank, I didn't read him much while he was alive, so I don't see any reason to change now.

I loved reading Jack O'Connor's articles, but it seemed to me that he overrated the .270 Winchester in his later years...........almost to the extent that nothing else was as good in his opinion.

I loved his stories about sheep hunting in Canada.

__________________
NRA Pistol Instructor

In my early years I very much enjoyed Jack O'Connor's articles & took my first 6 elk with a 270 using 130 gr Hornady slugs. Later in life he wrote a article about sheep hunting in Mexico & explained that there were 2 ways to aquire a sheep tag, that was to spend a great deal of money & wait your turn or.....you could get one quite easy if you knew the RIGHT people...........(government) he stated that HE knew the right people & could always get a sheep tag, I never liked him after that!
In the early 70's I started stopping in at Elmer Keith's place to buy a book & visit for a few minutes, I did this several times over the next 6-7 years, my wife would go with me & visit with Lorraine & Elmer would take me out back to his trophy room, he only had 2 animals in the house, a sheep & a sable. In the trophy room out back was where he did his writing, etc. lots & lots of animals, some were very old skull mounts. He was always very polite & patient, I only wish I would have been able to shoot with him a few times.
Ross Seyfried wrote once that the best shot he ever knew with all 3 guns, rifle, handgun & shotgun was Elmer Keith. Pretty good endorsement!
This is one of the books I bought from Elmer.


This is his book Safari, it is very rare as only a few copies surivived a flood.




Dick

His favorite load with the 130gr. bullet in the 270 was 62 gr of H4831. I use this load in my 270 although some say it's too hot it appears to be fine in my rifle.

Kirmdog

Paul, there is a link on the top of the page where you can contact the university about availability and cost of reproduction of his papers and photos. I'm not sure I am interested enough to spend cash for it now.

__________________
sona si latine loqueris .

The real measure of a writer's work is how much of it still stands up over time. If you set aside some of the load data that has changed as powders have evolved, O'Connor is still dead-on.

So is Keith, for that matter.


Okie John

I'm a technical guy. It's what I do for a living. If you compare the two (three if you include Skeeter) which ones seem to be more specific technically?

Frank,

They have a listing of his writings, but they aren't accessible without some other process.

I'm sorta like 38-44, with thoughts of O'Connor being pretty much noted for being a one trick pony. He is best remembered for his strong advocacy of the .270, normally in a M70 Winchester.

I usually found Outdoor Life to be a waste of time, so I didn't read it or Field & Stream with any regularity. I liked Guns & Ammo, which is what I subscribed to after I got out of the Navy in 1965. That's were Elmer was writing, not O'Connor.

As far as Elmer being illiterate, here's a personal letter he wrote, which is entirely understandable, even with the common typos that are generated on a manual typewriter.

Mr. Keith told me Jack was a very good writer. In fact he related to this on two different occasions.

It's my understanding Jack didn't like to gut or skin. BTW this didn't come from Mr. Keith.

__________________
Joshua 1:9

Not sure anyone truly likes to gut & skin

__________________
213th FBINA

I agree with Paul that O'Connor probably never mentioned handguns in his articles. While he was a proponent of the 270, I don't think he was totally committed to the high velocity school of thought like Roy Weatherby. He wrote that the 270 was the best for its intended purpose but he did use heavier cartridges when appropriate. I also remember he did some development work on wildcat cartridges based on the 7x57 Mauser and I remember him doing some practical experiments on heavy brush performance of various calibers. If anyone is interested, I ran across a re-print of some of his favorite 270 loads.

Frank

__________________
sona si latine loqueris .

Jack O'Connor is my favorite gun writer because he was very knowledgeable about both guns and writing. His refined style still makes the most pleasant reading.

For the most part, Elmer and Skeeter are going to give you more in depth information on handgun loads. I don't know that I've ever seen anything from O'Connor on handguns. OTOH, O'Connor will possibly give you more on rifles, especially if he was pushing that particular variety of .270.

In more modern times, John Taffin has pretty well taken up the mantle on handguns.

As a young man I read just about everything that Jack O'Connor wrote in Outdoor Life. Of all the things he wrote, one story stuck in my head, probably because he applied humor to a serious issue. He was writing about hunting "accidents" and related a story about a young woman who was sitting on a rock smoking a cigarette when a "mountain lion hunter" shot her. He wrote "obviously he thought she was a mountain lion sitting on a rock smoking a cigarette". He had a very easy style of writing that held my interest.

If you are interested, his papers are housed at Washington State University and are listed in this link.

http://www.wsulibs.wsu.edu/hol...sc/finders/cg457.htm

Frank

__________________
sona si latine loqueris .

Brad Crawford, a friend of mine and fellow attorney who died several years ago (tragically young) had met Elmer Keith while on a hunting trip in Idaho. He and his hunting buddy evidently just drove up to Mr. Keith's home unannounced, and Elmer met them at the door, wearing one of his 4" Model 29s and his big hat. After introductions, Brad and his buddy were invited in and spent a couple of hours "just visiting" with Elmer. Accessible, indeed!

The "conflict" between O'Connor and Keith was really nothing more than a device used to increase magazine sales. They weren't the only two who engaged is such shenanigans back in the print era.

O'Connor was like many of the gun writers of that sadly past era: knowledgable, experienced and if you were smart you shut up and listened. In other words, diametrically opposed to todays crop.

Don't forget Col. Townsend Whelen who is supposed to be the father of the comment" only accurate rifles are interesting".