Ball. Gel test for 357 mag WW lead

[Mikeinkaty]

Can someone point me to gel tests for 357 mag using wheel weight lead? (RNFP)

I’ve shot 3 hogs so far with my Henry lever gun. I’m getting kills but not knock downs. I’m shooting 357 mag, 158 grn RNFP powder coated using 16 grains of IMR 4227. Roughly 1700 FPS.

I’ve been dropping into a bucket of water after pouring.

I have not been able to recover any of the bullets. I suspect I’m not getting bullet expansion.

[Peak53]

I suspect your bullets are too hard for expansion even at that high velocity. If you aren't getting the results you want, you may need to go to a rifle caliber.

[rockquarry]

Have you tried these bullets without water dropping? It could reduce the hardness level enough to get expansion. Of course, it might also cause bore leading if bullet fit isn't quite right.

[6518John]

It depends on where you are shooting them. Bullet placement is critical in shooting hogs. I would not change a thing about your loading and start shooting them like this video recommends, and see what happens.

YouTube

[Mikeinkaty]

I’ll try the red dot placement next time. My 30-06 with 165 grain core-loct bullets and 2800 FPS knocks them dead in their tracks. I went to the 357 mag cause the 06 just kicks to much for me. I’m 76 yrs old. Most of my shots are at 100 yards (distance from deck to corn feeder). I can get all shots in a 3” circle at that range. Here’s a Texas tall tale for you. This summer with the 06 I got 3 with one shot. There was a young hog in front of a big sow. I shot just over the small pigs back. When I got over there there were two dead baby’s. The buzzards found the sow 2 days later. She had run 50 yards down into a thicket.

[6518John]

What I like about that behind the ear shot is it gives you a lot of margin for error—and I need it! If you shoot forward you hit the ear hole/head/brain and drop them like a rock. If you shoot too far back, you break a shoulder. If you shoot high you generally knock them down from spine trauma and the same if you shoot low—which can also rupture the throat.

I frankly like the .223–I don’t like hard kicking rifles either—and I just use the 67 grain Winchester white box. Drop that behind the ear and they are bringing in the sheaves—but not rejoicing—before they hit the ground.

Same with 30-30 and .243. (The only rounds I have used on hogs along with the 06).

But as you point out the 30-06 is the gold standard. It will thump a hog pretty much anywhere—and I like the 180 grain loads in my 06’s. But it thumps back too!

You are one hell of a shot with that little .357 and my hat is off to you. Shoot every hog you can! When you clean them out of Texas, come to Arkansas and clean ours out too.

[bigwheelzip]

This is a solution developed for use in a .357 Rossi 92, by a Texas rancher who goes by Ranch Dog. He documented much success with it.

[Rule3]

Originally Posted by Mikeinkaty

Can someone point me to gel tests for 357 mag using wheel weight lead? (RNFP)

I’ve shot 3 hogs so far with my Henry lever gun. I’m getting kills but not knock downs. I’m shooting 357 mag, 158 grn RNFP powder coated using 16 grains of IMR 4227. Roughly 1700 FPS.

I’ve been dropping into a bucket of water after pouring.

I have not been able to recover any of the bullets. I suspect I’m not getting bullet expansion.

"Gel Test" would be irrelevant" comparison to shooting a Hog.?


Even with a gel test it is not going to be YOUR bullet or distance.


Cover a dead Hog with layers of Denim and then shoot it.

Check you expansion and penetration to see if it meets FBI protocol..

[fredj338]

Softer bullet is what you want. Stop water dropping, unless your alloy is range scrap. even then, I would air cool & water drop from the oven after coating. This gives a little bhn bump on the surface. If you really want expansion, consider a shallow cup point.

[cowboy4evr]

NOE has that 190 gr mold design that “ ranch dog “ is using . Originally he offered it , LEE made them . I have one in 6 cav. I always loaded it in a 38 spl case w a full load of 4227 powder . It’s a tumble lube gas checked design . I think that lil gun would be an ideal powder in a rifle . I shot mine from a SW revolver , model 28 , 6” barrel. I think that bullet / powder combo in a rifle would give you all you need using lil gun powder in a rifle Good luck , Paul

[Duckford]

The entire point of powder coating lead bullets for hunting is to use the softest lead possible for expansion. As previously stated, don't dunk them into water to harden them, also try to use the softest alloy you can get your hands on, no "hardcast" or hard alloys. its been documented by old cast bullet hunters that at some point the hardness of the lead leads to decreasing terminal performance, at some point you will get no expansion and thus no hydrostatic shock. If there is lost bullet weight it will be because the bullet fragments the worst possible way (more like shattering glass in general rough terms) vs soft lead with fragments like putty being pulled apart violently. Hard cast is only good for increased velocity for flatter shooting, the extra energy will do you no good if the bullet doesn't expand and use that energy.

Did you do a rough autopsy of the hogs? When you dress them find the bullet path and measure the holes as you go through. especially the exit wound. If its the same throughout, you have no expansion. If you have expansion and no signs of hydrostatic shock, then its not expanding violently enough, quick enough. If its not expanding at all the lead is too hard. If its expanding but no hydrostatic shock is occurring, too soft a lead, lack of energy, or bullet shape are to blame.

YouTube

Part shameless self promotion, this is a rather poorly done video done by myself of a cast bullet kill on a deer and shooting through my gel blocks. About the same velocity but a bullet bigger and slightly over double the weight. Bullet expanded from .375 to .600~ caliber through the lungs and exited roughly .700~ final expanded diameter. No hydrostatic shock. One viewer suggested the bullet was actually tumbling, not expanding, which I may accept in theory (would love a professional in the field to give an opinion but that's asking too much). If the bullet did expand as I surmised, and failed to have permanent stretch/hyrostatic shock it was not a lack of energy, velocity, but rather the soft lead alloy which fouled the bore was still too hard for rapid expansion, most of all it was a Postel blackpowder match bullet which a pointier shape to it which took longer to expand and resist and didn't expand quick enough to cause said hydrostatic shock, or "knock down" as you would expect.

In the gel block it performed the same, punching through both gel blocks with ease, in a straight line, no signs of real hydrostatic shock, nasty looking exit wound from what I estimate to be expansion, or perhaps bullet tilt if it were tumbling. A hardcast version of your load would perform worse. However, with a very soft alloy with powder coating, it might do better.....

[Forrest r]

Sounds like you have 2 different things going on at the same time.

Test medium:
I like to use wet newspaper bundles. Stack newspaper 12" high and tape it together. Make 3 or 4 test bundles & put them in a cooler. Fill the cooler with water, the bundles will absorb the water. And more after several hours and let sit overnight. Load the cooler up and drive down to where your shooting the hogs and setup the bundles with targets stapled to the front of them. Test away, you will find your bullets in the layers on the newspaper. They say that 1" of wetpack (newspaper bundles) is = to 1 1/2" of gel. Don't know about that but you'll find out 2 things real fast. Namely if your bullets are expanding & how much penetration your getting. If you think you're getting over penetration put 2 bundles back to back for your 1st testing of your ammo.

Alloy & velocity
1700fps from that load ='s 1300fps @ 100yds/impact with the hog. You need to make an alloy that performs at that velocity. Typically you want:
1bhn per every 100fps with lead hp bullets (13bhn ='s 1300fps)
3/4bhn per every 100fps with lead fn bullets (9/10bhn ='1300fps)
Those # are nothing more than starting points for testing but they are close to what you need. As others have stated quit water dropping your bullets. WW's run anywhere from 10bhn to 12bhn without water dropping them. Water drop them and you get into the the 20+bhn range.

FWIW:
I've used strait air cooled ww alloy in 308's/30-06's/44mag lever actions with excellent results up to 1900fps.
PC'ing the bullet will only temporarily anneal/drop the bhn of the coated bullets. They will age harden and get their bhn back. In the past (pre pc days) it was common to take an alloy that was too hard to swage into bullets and put the cores in an oven @ 400* for 15 minutes to soften them (sound familiar) Then swage the cores and let them sit for 3+ weeks and it's game on. A simple pencil test to find out just how hard your alloy is. It's cheap/easy to do and surprisingly accurate. Shave the wood back on a pencil exposing the lead core. Sand the pencil core back so it's flat and the width of the core. Hold the wide flat tipped pencil at a 45* angle and push it against the bullet/alloy trying to scrape/gouge the alloy. If the pencil can't leave a mark/gouge in the alloy then the alloy is harder then the pencil. If the pencil leaves a mark, then the pencil is harder then the alloy.


A couple of years ago I swaged some jacketed bullets for the 629. Wanted them for deer hunting. So I tested loads to find an accurate load @ 100yds. Where I planed on hunting the most shots would be in the 75yd to 100yd range or closer. So I did the ballistics on the load and found it would be in the +/- 1100fps range @ 75yds. So I did testing into wet pack setup @ 25yds and the chronograph @ 10ft from the muzzle to simulate my longest shot of 100yds. Took 5 or 6 tries to get the right alloy for the core so the hp bullet would stay together. The recovered bullet with the final alloy for the cores recovered from wetpack bundles.


Newspaper is cheap enough (free) and makes an excellent test medium. Make up some bundles and set them out where hit the hogs at and start testing. Keep in mind that not only do you want your bullet nose to expand/flatten, you want penetration. If you get the bullets to flatten and penetration falls off. Step your load up H110, MP-300. I loaded up some 158gr hp's for a 10" 357mag barreled contender and was getting 1630fps averages for 10-shot groups with both H110 & MP-300. That 20" bbl your using would pick up a couple hundred fps with those same loads.

[Mikeinkaty]

Thanks all. Lots of things I need to do.
My water dropped WW bullets test in the 16-18 bnh range using the pencil test. If I dropped down to 13-14 I think I should drop down to say, 1400 FPS. By the way, I have been getting NO leading in either my Henry or 686. I have been powder coating from the get-go. Accuracy has been good. I’ve been using firearms since a kid but just started reloading when I got my 686. It was either that or not shoot. I have a place in the country where I run through 200 rounds in an average day of shooting. Also I always shot Expert in the army.

I realize the bullets loose hardness during powder coating. I did not realize the hardness would creep back up though with time. I have about 2000 bullets poured and coated now.

[Forrest r]

No need to throttle back on your velocities. PC breaks all the rules.

Water dropped range scrap (+/- 12bhn) will easily hold 1700fps.
10-shot group @ 50yds from a 308w with water dropped range scrap plinking load, pc'd bullet.


A 16bhn bullet in the 308w that is pc'd doing 2600fps+ in a 308w, 10-shot groups @ 100yds.


If anything put some high-test in there & hit the gas.

[Mikeinkaty]

And no flattened primers? The heaviest load I’ve shot is 180 grain RNFP bullet at 1380 FPS with H110. Shoots fine in either the Henry or the 686+P with no case bulges or flattened primers. That was at max pressure for the Henry according to Hodgdon. The 686 recoil was fun!!

I bought 100 of the 180 grain bullets, coated. I would like to find a 180 grain mold for 357 mag. Well actually .358”. After PC’g I size to .357”.

[Forrest r]

No flattened primers, simply the difference between a 158gr bullet and a 180gr bullet.

FWIW:
A lot of calibers with small case capacity tend to have a falling off point. The 357mag is no different, 80+ years of using/testing has proven this. When bullets start getting over 170gr in a 357mag things start to go south and & cartridges like the 357 maximum come into play. Using a rifle helps but remember you're delivering your payload 100yds down range.

180gr vs 170gr

Per lyman's 50th edition 20" bbl
180gr jacketed hp max load of H110 1566fps
358429 170gr cast bullet max load of H110 1704fps

Per lymans 49th edition 20" bbl
170gr jacketed hp max load of H110 1687fps
358429 170gr cast bullet max load of H110 1704fps

As you can see there's a huge swing velocity even with a 20" bbl'd firearm, 100+fps difference is huge. I my own testing over the decades I've found the same thing & the heaviest bullet I cast for the 357mag is a 170gr bullet from a mold that casts 158gr hp's or 170gr fn's.


I also swage my own jacketed bullets and use the traditional 158gr & 170gr weights for my jacketed bullets.


Just something to think about, if it was me I'd buy a used/cheap lyman 358429 mold and do some testing.

[jwk]

I suspect your problem is bullet placement not bullet performance. A feral hog shot in the heart lung area is going to run. To drop them where they stand shoot at the base of the ear like the prior poster indicated.

I've probably killed 200 hogs for the table and a few more where property owners wanted them eradicated. For table fare any reasonable deer rifle w a shot at the base of the ear. Result hog on ground. For eradication heart lung shots so they run off to die. Before you mess with a successful load try different shot placement first.

[Mikeinkaty]

Originally Posted by jwk

I suspect your problem is bullet placement not bullet performance. A feral hog shot in the heart lung area is going to run. To drop them where they stand shoot at the base of the ear like the prior poster indicated.

I've probably killed 200 hogs for the table and a few more where property owners wanted them eradicated. For table fare any reasonable deer rifle w a shot at the base of the ear. Result hog on ground. For eradication heart lung shots so they run off to die. Before you mess with a successful load try different shot placement first.

Yeah I think you are right. I’ve been use to the killing properties of the 06. Heck, hit them in the tail and they fall over dead. 😂😂😂. I need to try setting my leupold to a higher power. Set at 4X now.