Question on W231 w/ 158 gr LSWC

Miracle Man · Feb 2, 2023

So, I started loading 44 mag 45 LC several years ago with good results. But I'm fairly new to 38/357.

I shot a few 38 reloads out of my new to me S&W 586 with 6" barrel. It was pretty cold that day like 22 degrees. The load was a 158 gr Hornady LSWC over 4.3 grs. W231 and CCI SPP.

The 6 shot string averaged 738 FPS with a low of 693 FPS. Long story short I have another box that I failed to crimp correctly trying a new Lee factory crimp die. (The box I shot was crimped with a standard RCBS seating die in 1 stroke)

So here's question? I looked up load data on Hodgdon website and much to my surprise they list 3.7 grs of W231 as max !

So I went back to my manuals, five of them that list W231/158 gr lead and they all but one list 4.3 or higher as max load. Lyman #47 lists 4.9 grs. as max.

The Lee manual list 4.0 as start and 4.5 as max. Almost certain that's the manual I went by. And I always cross check in at least one other manual.

Is 4.3 to much ? Does the cold effect velocity that much ? Should I back it down ? I'm pulling that box anyways.

Ivan the Butcher · Feb 2, 2023

Since you are shooting these out of a 357 mag 586, pressure isn't a concern. At this point write down what you did on each batch (primer, charge, overall length and bullet) and what you did and didn't like and move on. No harm/no foul!

Ivan

rockquarry · Feb 2, 2023

This has been brought up before. The Hodgdon 231 / HP-38 data is pretty light in comparison with other published data using a 158 gr. lead SWC bullet. I've used 4 grs. 231 and the H&G 160 gr. cast SWC and muzzle velocity is around 815 fps from a 4" barrel. This is about the equivalent of a standard pressure .38 Special factory load; 6" velocity would be around 850 fps. 4.3 grs. 231 would would give a little more velocity but should be safe in guns that are in good condition. If you're using a Hornady bullet, go with Hornady data.

I've never chronographed these loads in cold weather. I don't know if 231/HP-38 is temperature sensitive. If it is, that may account for your lower velocities.

Green Frog · Feb 2, 2023

Why pull them? The crimping step, roll or taper, is the last thing you do to the reloaded round anyway, so unless you’re worried about that charge of 231 (I’ve gone as high as 4.2 in a 32 H&R) you just need to finish the reloading process and go enjoy shooting them. I’m not sure I’d be outside shooting @22 degrees, though.

Froggie

STORMINORMAN · Feb 2, 2023

"Is 4.3 too much?" No.

"Does the cold AFFECT velocity that much?" Probably not... Perhaps a bit?

"Should I back it down?" No. Not really even into +P territory yet.

Cheers!

P.S. See Green Frog's comment re: pulling a box unnecessarily.

Claymore33 · Feb 2, 2023

I would go up to 4.7 grains because i like 950-1000 fps.
Definitely a + P loading.

Miracle Man · Feb 2, 2023

Thanks for the info guys. I just overreacted a bit probably and pulled them. The box I have loaded with crimping from RCBS seater die I'm going to leave alone.

I was originally worried they were to light a charge with the 600's velocity. So I got to digging a little deeper and got worried they were too hot after looking at Hodgdon's website.

I was so confused LOL

There's a bit of a learning curve with the 38, 38+P, 357 magnum I guess?

twodog max · Feb 2, 2023

This has been covered before but just for the record the older W-W load data shows higher charge weight than the current data shows. Us old guys still shoot the old data and so far we are in one piece as much as an old guy can be.

Nevada Ed · Feb 2, 2023

A 158 Lwc in my M49 J frame snub nose, will do 816fps with 5.0grs of w231 powder.

In my L frame 686, 6" revolver, with a 357 case I can get that same
158 Lwc up to 1281fps but this load is not in any, of todays manuals.

In a 357 Magnum, 8.0 grs of w231 works with a 125 JHP.

Enjoy that w231 powder.

mscampbell2734 · Feb 2, 2023

Part of the difference has to do with the bullet. Some manuals, Speer for example, lists different loads to difference TYPES of 158 loads.

Swagged dead soft lead is loaded lighter then cast. Push a swagged bullet too fast and you'll have a hot mess of lead in your bore. A hard cast bullet can be pushed to well voer 1400 fps with the propere lube and bore fit.

Some manuals will actually say this, other will just list "lead, semi-wadcutter".

Paul in Nevada · Feb 3, 2023

Miracle Man said:
There's a bit of a learning curve with the 38, 38+P, 357 magnum I guess?

Maybe so. A lot of 38spl data seems to be very conservative. Maybe the data is mild to account for very old guns, maybe it's mild because the manual authors can't predict the leading potential of the bullets we will use. Maybe it's mild because the old data was developed with the CUP pressure system while the modern labs today use PSI and nobody wants to go back and verify the pressures.
None of this matters with a steel framed S&W made after 1957, certainly not one chambered in 357mag. You can safely go up to +P pressures with your target loads as long as you watch for leading and don't blow the skirts off of hollow based wadcutters.
Loading 357mag is pretty straightforward by comparison. The published data is less contradictory than 38spl.

As for the Lee FCD, I would avoid it with unjacketed bullets. It can swage down the bullet, which could result in leading and reduced case tension. I am a fan of the FCD for rifle bullets, less so for handgun. I did however buy a collet style FCD for the 357 which I have yet to try. It's not the same as the carbide insert style that comes with the four die set.

kbm6893 · Feb 3, 2023

I use 3.4 grains. Hodgson lists 3.7 grains as max. I don’t have a chronograph and I’m just punching paper so no big issue.

sheppard · Feb 3, 2023

Ive posted this before, when Winchester published their .38 special reloading information they listed 4.5 grains of 231 with a 158 grain bullet as the maximum load for normal pressure and 4.7 grains as the maximum +P load. I've loaded thousands of .38 special cartridges with 4.3 grains of 231 and 158 grain swaged bullets.

Borderboss · Feb 3, 2023

As others have said, your load is fine. Also, 231 is known to be very temperature stable, which is why it's such a go-to powder.

Skyhunter · Feb 3, 2023

My 9th Edition Hornady manual lists the following loads for 158 gr. Hornady SWC bullet with WW231 powder in a .38 Special case.
Starting load @ 3.2 grs. = 650 fps.
Max load @ 4.4 grs. = 850 fps.
It does not list WW231 powder with that bullet in a .357 case.

WYT-P
Skyhunter

raljr1 · Feb 3, 2023

I loaded 158 gr SWC behind 5.4 gr of ww231 in 357 cases....i found that load in a 357 LoadMap

Robert

Nevada Ed · Feb 3, 2023

I don't know where all you people are getting those "Low" amounts of powder for a "Max" loading with w231 powder?

My2011 Lyman hand manual has a Lyman #358311 160 gr lead round nose, OAL 1.55"
in a 38 case at 5.2 grs (+P) at 18,500 CUP.

alwslate · Feb 4, 2023

5.8 grs of 231 in 357 brass with a WSPM primer and a Magna style 158 gr
cast SWC is a great mild load that chronos at around 1050 FPS out of one of my 4" N frame S&Ws with a very low ES of only about 15 FPS.

Paul in Nevada · Feb 5, 2023

SpadXII said:
This is just a run over of the lawyer ****, Take a look at the velocity given and then at the barrel used.

HOrnady website uses a 10 inch barrel when they tell me how much velocity 4 grains of hp-38 will give my HBWC in a magnum case.

I'm glad you brought that up. Hodgdon states they use a 7.7" test barrel and since they don't specify a cylinder gap it's safe to assume there isn't one. With that long barrel they are only getting 834 fps at max load? Does that seem low? I would expect 1kfps or so. I was getting about 750 fps out of a 4" barrelled 15-3 with some mild loads of Bullseye last Monday. It's also interesting that they list 14.6k CUP for lead and 15.9k CUP for jacketed while max CUP for standard pressure 38spl is 15k if I remember correctly.

ArchAngelCD · Feb 6, 2023

One of my most favorite .38 Special loads is 4.0gr W231 under a 158gr LSWC bullet. I see nothing wrong with that load.

IMO accuracy is king and that load for me is very accurate in my revolvers.

Question on W231 w/ 158 gr LSWC

US Veteran

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

US Veteran

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

SWCA Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade

Similar threads