I'm not new to reloading, but I am fairly new to loading for 45-70. I understand to start low and work up. Today I was cross referencing my Hornady 9th Edition reloading manual, and my Lyman 49th Edition manual. Hornady list max pressure of the trapdoor loads at 25K CUP vs Lyman showing a max of only 18k Cup. Hornady list 40K for the 1895 vs Lyman showing a meager 28K. Then Hornady list 50K for Ruger only where Lyman shows 40K. According to Hornady I could use the Lyman Ruger loads in my Marlin. Its interesting to note that where Lyman uses a universal receiver for all 3 levels but Hornady used each prospective firearm for their testing. I'm not interested in trying to push the limits but I just don't know where the limit is. Anyone else find the huge discrepancy in power loads odd?

If you're really interested and want an understanding based on comprehensive work and useful results, read Ken Waters treatise in "Pet Loads". I haven't read it in years; it's dated material but still relevant and your concerns should be well addressed. Perhaps the best work on the subject you'll find anywhere. Written by the top writer in the handloading field. Good luck -

My thought's also.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

I'll look into it. I know a 405gr cast bullet will do basically anything you want it to do. I just like really versatile cartridges and was looking into loading some lead free expanding copper bullets and I know those should be loaded with caution when using data for lead core bullets.

I have 4 guns in 45-70; a original 1873 trapdoor Carbine, a reproduction Sharp's 1874, a Browning modern 1886 (made 1986) and a modern Marlin Guide Gun 1895. Lowball pressure levels are set by the manufactures and their lawyers. Yes, it is a pain, but my trapdoor will not handle the upper end of Level 2!

The truth is: a black powder load or the smokeless equivalent 400 grain load will kill anything and everything in North and South America along with Europe and Australia. But everyone wants bigger better and faster!

If you have a NEW 1886 copy a new Marlin 1895 any barrel length a 400/405 cast bullet, with IMR 3031 powder, at 2000-2150 is accurate, and more than powerful. I've shot that load hundreds of times: IT AIN'T EVER FUN! in a lightweight Guide Gun. However, it isn't bad from a 1886 one-inch octagon 26" long barrel.

That is my kill it now load!

For the Sharp's I like Heavy, Slow and Accurate! I believe Black Powder is best! I don't like scrubbing guns more than me after a day of shooting and have Trail Boss loads for plinking.

Welcome to the world of 45-70, you will take minutes finding out how bad most factory ammo is, and years finding out your favorite load!

Ivan

PS label your loads well as I have not found old ammo to be any problem, but old labels are often hard to read!

I forgot that California and Federal hunting lands require lead free.

The Hodgdon 2032 Annual Manual has a load for Barns TSX FN. The Barns loading manual has everything the make, and you can call their Customer Service and they will talk to you like an adult.

www.barnsbullets.com

1-800-574-9200

These were their contact info from about 15 years ago.

Ivan

IMO the Hornady data is too high on pressures. I would and do stick with Lyman data and pressure limits.

I only load 2 bullets.for the 45-70, A 405gr cast bullet for my Trapdoor which I also use in my levergun and a 300gr RN Ballistic Silvertip bullet for the Marlin only. (I bought the Silvertips as factory seconds at an amazingly low price)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I have been loading and shooting the 45/70 for years and currently have 4 of them. I shoot mostly my own cast bullets these days but also some jacketed stuff mostly Hornady 300 grain. I use their data for the jacketed bullets and have found it OK in my 1886 and Marlin 1895 rifles. The Ruger data for my No1 works and shoots OK but is for me downright painful and not a pleasure to shoot very much.
In using the cast bullets I go with data from the Lyman cast bullet manual and have found it satisfactory using IMR 4198 and Accurate 5744.
A friend got out 45/70 business a few years ago and gave me some custon loaded ammo with Barnes all copper bullets. It to was and is very accurate but the 250 grain bullets shoot much higher than my regular loads so i do not shoot it often.
With any bullet I have used on deer over the years of hunting with the 45/70 the round is devastatingly effective. The round has power to spare and with cast bullets of 350 grains and up the 1886 and Marlin loads kill with authority and make a big divit in the dirt on the exit side. You will not recover many bullets.
The round is easy to load for, fun to shoot and takes game very well. No need to hot rod it.

I used the 45-70 for a couple of decades. I had trapdoors, rolling blocks, Siamese Mauser, a double rifle, and a Remington-Keene rifle. I developed several loads for each rifle using the Gould bullet, the Lee 405 grain bullet, and a 500 grain Lyman. The Pet Loads by Ken Waters was my guide. All shot well and took deer handily. Eventually, I came to find the 405 grain bullet over 70 grains of blackpowder was all I needed and all the rifles responded well to that load except the double which was regulated for the Gould bullet.

Do your research, get the Pet Loads article, and have fun.

Whatever you do, do NOT try a 50-70.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

For some years my only 45-70 was a Ruger No. 1 so I didn't have to worry much about load levels (except for the pain factor). I added a Marlin last year and it has been a little frustrating to have most of my brass tied up with hot loads the lever can't digest, not to mention being nervous about some day forgetting to be careful about the different boxes (they are well labelled but still...).

Also the novelty of the top end loads has decidedly worn off now and unless I go after buffalo it really seems best to tone down all the loads going forward. My shoulder will thank me and no more stress over kabooming the 1895.

So yesterday I pulled a 50 round box of hot 405g loads and reworked them with midrange loads from the 1895 recipes in the Lyman cast manual. Those big bullets pull nice and easy in an inertial puller so wasn't bad.

Since I only shoot lead I never noticed those actual pressure numbers in my Hornady manual (always grab a Lyman book). I weigh 140 lbs - no thank you on 50K c.u.p. Loads

Springfield trapdoors were originally built to shoot lead, not jacket bullets, but if you can find loads under 28,000 using jacketed bullets, you should be OK. You cannot do is simply swap out lead for jacketed without understanding the ramifications. Jacketed bullets will increase pressures, sometimes well above max pressures for trapdoors, so care must be taken to be sure you use only loads published for this caliber by the powder manufacturers that show pressure levels. Also remember that CUP vs PSI are only transferable up to 20,000. Above that, PSI will be higher than CUP. It is likely that you will see 28,000 CUP equal to over 30,000 PSI so be aware of this issue when looking at reloading tables. Most powder loading databases will show velocities and pressures for each of their acceptable loadings. As you stated, start at the bottom and you may not need to go higher.

Trapdoors were not built to be bullseye rifles, so no need to hotrod them. 1300 to 1400 fps for rifles and 1200 fps for carbines will carry a 405 grain RNFP bullet easily 300 yards with some degree of accuracy, but pressures will remain well below the max.

Lastly, these cases are huge, and some powder recipes will just show up in the bottom of the case. I worry about pressure spikes and position sensitivity so try to stick with powders that have bulk, at least filling the case halfway. Do your research, read about reloading this caliber in reloading manuals, etc., plus only use powder manufacturers reloading recipes for trapdoors and you will be fine.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I have spoken to Barnes tech support on a couple of topics recently and their assistance has been outstanding.

One thing to remember, while the trapdoor may be weak compared to a Mauser, the Army used three trapdoor actions to test various barrels to determine the best rifling twist for the 30-40 Krag cartridge. And the Army was developing a smokeless version of the 45-70 when the Spanish American war happened and stopped further development.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Gary mentioned potential problems shooting jacketed bullets in arms designed for cast lead bullets. It’s complicated.

With the .45-70 it’s fairly straight forward as the bullet diameter has traditionally been in the .458” - .459” ballpark for jacketed lead and cast or swaged lead bullets.

But even then it’s possible for a hand loader to get himself in trouble using a “hard cast” lead bullet. Unfortunately way too many cast bullet shooters think “hard cast” is just another term for “cast lead bullet”. Many cast bullet shooters who understand there is a difference often don’t understand the difference and think soft lead bullets are for black powder and “hard cast” is for everything else.

Many shooters also fail to understand that jacketed bullets often use a very soft lead core, particularly in low pressure, low velocity applications like the .45-70.

That means a .458” jacketed bullet with a soft lead core won’t pose a problem in a trapdoor .45-70, while a hard cast lead bullet may well cause pressure issues, especially when cast .001” over bore diameter as is the traditional practice.

For example, I use 40-1 (lead to tin) alloy in my .45-70 and .38-55 loads. The Brinell hardness of 40-1 is just 8, compared to:
- 5 for pure lead;
- 10 for 20-1;
- 12 for clip on wheel weights;
- 15 for Lyman no 2 alloy;
- 18 for quench cast wheel weights; and
- 30 for oven heated wheel weights.

Way back in the day “hardcast” meant 20-1 or slow cooled wheel weight alloy. But “hard cast” has come to be marketed as “harder is better, real hard is best”.

It’s not.

A bullet needs to be soft enough to quickly obturate to the full bore diameter to prevent gas cutting, and only has to be hard enough to not skid in the rifling. That minimum hardness depends largely on the pressure of the load as well as on the rifling twist, and has almost nothing to do with velocity of the load.

For example, that BHN of 8 works just fine in the 1:18” twist barrel of my 26” Uberti 1894 rifle in .38-55, and in the 1:15” twist barrel of my 24” Winchester Model 94 LF rifle and 20” Model 94 Takedown rifle.

Where that alloy starts to end up on the soft side is with my Winchester Big Bore 94 in .375 Win and it’s 1:12” twist, even at .38-55 pressures.

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I mention the .375 Win as it’s the reason you won’t see Buffalo Bore making .38-55 ammo using a hard cast” bullet anytime soon.

Buffalo Bore current loads a “heavy” .38-55 load using a .377” 255 gr Barnes jacketed soft point bullet launching at 1950 fps. That load will work fine in any .38-55. It’s optimized for modern .3775” bore rifles but is soft cored enough to obturate in an older .380-.381” .38-55.

It’s also soft enough to shoot in the .375” bore of the .375 Win, without exceeding the pressure limits of the .375 Win. But that would not be the case with a lead bullet cast hard enough for those .38-55 “heavy” .38-55+P 38,000 CUP pressures, as a hard cast lead bullet can create more pressure than a soft lead core jacketed bullet.

I have a Marlin 1895 and I shoot mostly Trapdoor pressure reloads in it.
I do not find the higher pressure loads pleasant at all. Trapdoor loads will kill a deer right now.
I would just shoot the recommended low pressure loads for the Trapdoor or find some Remington factory 405gr “for all rifles” ammunition.
No need to stress the old girl.

Black powder era cartridges like the .45-70 and .38-55 generally have three different load pressures and performance levels.

For example the .38-55 developed around 1320 fps with a 255 gr bullet in its original black powder form. That increased to around 1590 fps with smokeless “high velocity” loads. Currently, modern smokeless powders and an unofficial “+P” pressure standard of 38,000 CUP (as opposed to the SAAMI 30,000 CUP/35,000 psi standard) that result in velocities of 1950 fps.

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For the .45-70, there is a similar range of performance.

The old ball powder trap door suitable loads generate about 18,000 to 20,000 psi. That produces about 1550 fps for a 300 gr lead bullet and about 1400 fps for a 405 gr bullet.

Later smokeless powder loads for other than trap door rifles have become SAAMI standardized at 28,000 psi. That higher pressure increases performance to about 2000 fps for the 300 gr bullet and 1600 fps for the 405 gr bullet.

Then there are “Marlin 1895” loads generating around 40,000 CUP found in various load manuals. They”ll launch a 300 gr bullet at about 2100 fps.

There are also higher “Ruger Only” loads that generate around 50,000 CUP.

Buffalo Bore advertises a non standard, not even unofficial “+P” pressure used that gets 2350 fps out of a 300 gr bullet, and 2000 fps for a 405 gr bullet. I’ve never heard the actual pressure generated.

SS336, I think you posted some wise words there and my comments above were probably a silly half measure toward common sense, and even the middle tier is just not needed for what I do. Anyway I am finding the learning curve (pun intended) for holdovers on steep trajectories to be a heck of a lot of fun, so I think the next batches will certainly be trapdoor levels.

I agree. I shoot both black powder and smokeless loads in my .45-70s and .38-55s and the majority of my smokeless loads are to black powder velocities. Black powder performance without the cleaning requirements.


I have been known to load up to higher 1600 ish fps velocities for my .38-55 with a 255 gr bullet, about 300 fps over black powder levels, for certain hunting purposes.

However, the regular black powder performance level is more than adequate for deer sized game out to practical lever gun ranges of 150-200 yards.

405 gr. bullet and 70 grns. of blackpowder. Shoots tight and won’t beat you gun or your shoulder up. It’ll kill anything in North America.

My own conclusions about 45-70 loads is that life is too short to want to pound myself to death with Ruger strength loads. Even the high end Marlin and 1886 loads can hurt.
Any trapdoor strength load that will consistently hit on target at 100 yards will kill anything that is hit right and sure as won't kill the shooters shoulder when at the range. And remember, practice makes perfect. Hard to do when it involves self torture!

John

I've had several .45-70s in the last thirty-five or more years. I never loaded a jacketed bullet in any of the guns. A cast bullet of the right alloy for the load will do all the cartridge was intended for and then some.

I tried many loads and several bullet designs and found the cartridge to be quite accurate in most guns. I somehow lost interest in the .45-70, now much preferring my single shot .32-40, .38-55, and .405 Winchester rifles. I have one remaining .45-70, a Shiloh Sharps that I bought more than thirty years ago, and that will soon go the gun show route along with a few others.

One can learn a great deal about handloading and cast bullets with the .45-70 and it's fine hunting cartridge. I can't imagine why anyone would load the cartridge hot. Recoil really takes the enjoyment out of any cartridge. If you have a propensity for recoil, at least consider something that shoots flat.

The general recommendations are to hold the Marlin to 40k in pressure , hodgdon data for leverguns max loads are pretty close to that. I have the Marlin cowboy and use those loads a lot. Now if you have a browning or Winchester 1886 that’s a whole new ball game, I believe that is the strongest leverguns action on earth. I could start 500 arguments by saying I believe those rifles will handle ruger only data all day long for lunch and dinner!

Looked up my notes on the loads I tried with my Uberti Hi-wall sporter, a fairly light rifle at under 7 lbs.
47.8 gr of 3031 with 405gr jacketed. Around 1700+ fps and upwards to 37,000 C.U.P per the Lyman 47th ed. That was top end for the 1886 and Marlin lever guns. All I can say is ouch!
The upper end for trapdoors with the same powder is 39 grs 3031, and with Lymans 385 gr cast at 1400 fps at 17000 C.U.P. About 50 fps lower with the jacketed 405 gr.
I prefer 12 grs Unique with tthe 385 gr cast in my carbine and old Remington rolling block. Both will ding the 8 inch gong all day at 100 yds without the pain.

Certainly one of the more versatile cartridges out there. And a historic one to boot.

John