Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special

SGT ROCK 11B · #**101** 07-12-2023, 05:31 PM

Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special ...

Because I have a 686 Plus in 357 Magnum

StrawHat · #**102** 07-12-2023, 08:41 PM

This is one of my revolvers chambered for the 38 S&W Special.

For those who might not recognize it, it is a newer version of the revolver that Phil Sharpe used to create what became the 357 Magnum. Yes, his had Target sights but this is what I have.

This is the revolver that Major Dan Wesson mentioned when asked about heat treated cylinders. His response was something like, “the steel we use is strong enough to handle the pressures without heat treating.”

There was a small but popular conversion of these revolvers that involved deepening the chambers to accept the Magnum cartridge. No blowups have been recorded of which I am aware.

I use the Skeeter load in this revolver and have no issues. I have also loaded stouter and found accuracy dropped off.

If I were to find myself in need of a small bore revolver, a 38 S&W Special is what I would choose.

Kevin

bmcgilvray · #**103** 07-12-2023, 09:56 PM

Here's an old thread I stuck up here on the Forum years ago showing some of the .38 Special load testing that has been undertaken over the years here.
Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

rosewood · #**104** 07-13-2023, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drm50

I’m lost here. What is the point of cranking up ultra hot loads? I’ve always loaded for handguns the same as rifles. Pick a bullet that is best for the intended purpose. Then work up the most accurate load. End of story, I’ve got loads that have never changed in over 50 yrs. The only way I change is if a component is discontinued. The load is for an individual gun, not the cartridge.

Because we can. That is part of the adventure of reloading. Can I make it better than factory? That is the fun of it for many. Some get excited with 1 hole groups, some get excited by super velocity. I have participated in both adventures and still do occasionally.

Different strokes for different folks.

Rosewood

Rock185 · #**105** 07-14-2023, 08:55 PM

Another interesting discussion. I loaded plenty of .357, but didn't shoot enough .38 Spcl. to bother loading it. Those of us on the Dept. who carried .357s did qualify with the issued Magnum ammo. We were issued the .357 125 grain JHP from Remington or Winchester; whichever happened to have the contract at the time. I did see a K-frame or two, and a Python with damaged forcing cones. The rangemaster asked me to chronograph the .38 and .357 duty ammo the Dept. was issuing at the time. IIRC, the .357 averaged ~1450 FPS in a 4" revolver.

The 158 grain Underwood .38 +P I tested recently averaged 1207 FPS in a 4" revolver, the Underwood 125 grain averaged 1267 FPS. I have no idea what pressures the ammo produced, but can say that primers looked normal and extraction was easy from both the 2" and 4" revolvers.

The N-Frame Smiths, Pythons and similar Colts, etc., use the shorter cylinders. I always figured that those shorter cylinders were used because prior to the introduction of the .357, those size guns were were chambered in the shorter 38 Spcl. Corporate economy, inertia? I sometimes had to make adjustments when I loaded .357 for my N-Frames. The .357 K and L-frames were a pleasure to load for due to their longer cylinders..

I wouldn't want it to get around, but in my dotage I most often shoot .38 Spcl. in my Colt, and S&W J, K, L, and N-frames, no matter the pressures or cylinder length

IAM Rand · #**106** 07-23-2023, 10:09 PM

Okay, so either Shooting Illustrated was reading my mind or I read theirs. Their latest edition has an article about beefing up the 38 Special. Guess I am not so far off base, huh!

The advertised velocities were not earth shattering by any means but, around 1100+ max but, I still think you can push the 38 to the 1200-1500 safely in the newer manufactured revolvers making it more of what Keith was looking for. I still think the 38 is a relevant caliber but, woefully lacking. Look old timers, you can still have your 700-800fps 38s but, why not let the 38 live up to its potential.

Just saying.

ArchAngelCD · #**107** 07-24-2023, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

Okay, so either Shooting Illustrated was reading my mind or I read theirs. Their latest edition has an article about beefing up the 38 Special. Guess I am not so far off base, huh!

The advertised velocities were not earth shattering by any means but, around 1100+ max but, I still think you can push the 38 to the 1200-1500 safely in the newer manufactured revolvers making it more of what Keith was looking for. I still think the 38 is a relevant caliber but, woefully lacking. Look old timers, you can still have your 700-800fps 38s but, why not let the 38 live up to its potential.

Just saying.

IMO there is no way to push a .38 Special anywhere near 1500 fps safely. It's difficult to achieve that is a .357 Magnum. (excluding an extremely light bullet)

Do not post data for those loads unless you can link to a reliable source which also gives pressure data.

1500 fps is unrealistic in a .38 Special. So is 1200 fps in most cases. I have a .38 Special +P load with a 135gr bullet that will do 1050 fps from a 4" barrel and that load is pushing the pressure limits of 20,000 psi.

IAM Rand · #**108** 07-24-2023, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

IMO there is no way to push a .38 Special anywhere near 1500 fps safely. It's difficult to achieve that is a .357 Magnum. (excluding an extremely light bullet)

Do not post data for those loads unless you can link to a reliable source which also gives pressure data.

1500 fps is unrealistic in a .38 Special. So is 1200 fps in most cases. I have a .38 Special +P load with a 135gr bullet that will do 1050 fps from a 4" barrel and that load is pushing the pressure limits of 20,000 psi.

Couple of things here.
1) I have never "published" any load data and wouldn't but, thanks for the warning.
2) You obviously have not seen the published data on Buffalo Bore's website. They have 357 between 1400-1500.

You obviously missed the reason I started this along with the others here that have been doomsday naysayers with loading hot 38 Specials.

I have a 38. Would I ever load 1000+ round to shoot out of it, "Heck no." It is a model 49. Have I loaded 38s hot and shot them out of a 357, Heck yessssssss. Are the new 38s capable of shooting a faster ammo, I believe the quality revolvers could/can. If you think I am crazy then please, by all means, write the editors of Shooters Illustrated and tell them that I and they are crazy. Grab a copy of the latest and see what they have in the article. The guy writing it was using a Korth 38 special. If anyone would/should be concerned about shooting loads that could destroy an expensive gun it would have been him.

rockquarry · #**109** 07-24-2023, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

Okay, so either Shooting Illustrated was reading my mind or I read theirs. Their latest edition has an article about beefing up the 38 Special. Guess I am not so far off base, huh!

The advertised velocities were not earth shattering by any means but, around 1100+ max but, I still think you can push the 38 to the 1200-1500 safely in the newer manufactured revolvers making it more of what Keith was looking for. I still think the 38 is a relevant caliber but, woefully lacking. Look old timers, you can still have your 700-800fps 38s but, why not let the 38 live up to its potential.

Just saying.

Is SHOOTING ILLUSTRATED a real paper gun magazine or some Internet creation? I'm unfamilar with it.

rosewood · #**110** 07-24-2023, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Is SHOOTING ILLUSTRATED a real paper gun magazine or some Internet creation? I'm unfamilar with it.

My google fu found it is an NRA publication and is available in paper option.

Rosewood

rockquarry · #**111** 07-24-2023, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosewood

My google fu found it is an NRA publication and is available in paper option.

Rosewood

Thank you; never heard of it.

CJH · #**112** 07-24-2023, 05:47 PM

Why not use a 357?

If I need a more powerful round I’d rather move up a cartridge IMO. There’s really no downside.

IAM Rand · #**113** 07-24-2023, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockquarry

Is SHOOTING ILLUSTRATED a real paper gun magazine or some Internet creation? I'm unfamilar with it.

It is a magazine put out by the NRA.

IAM Rand · #**114** 07-24-2023, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJH

Why not use a 357?

If I need a more powerful round I’d rather move up a cartridge IMO. There’s really no downside.

If you go back to my original supposition that gun makers are still making the 38 special and that it is still a relevant firearm, why not make it even more relevant. Elmer pushed the envelope in the 38. The only reason the 357 came about was that they didn't want people to load the more powerful 38 into a gun that wasn't designed to shoot the more powerful round (specifically the 38-44). The cartridge is shorter so that you can load a heaver round into it like the Keith 169-173 gr semi-wadcutter.

Somehow I have spoken heresy here and that I am encouraging people to harm themselves by loading the 38 to such a level that they would blow up their 38 special. My original supposition was that the newly manufacturers are making 38s to a point that they could handle a greater velocity round and keeping the 38 even more relevant.

Sigh, I guess I am just a radical.

jjrr · #**115** 07-24-2023, 06:22 PM

My experience, I loaded some 357 to almost max from a well respected reloading manual and shot a couple of those in my model 28 and then they sat around on the shelf for couple years and I broke them down and loaded to a more moderate level. There is no way I would consider shooting 357 power level ammo in a 38 special revolver.

Drm50 · #**116** 07-24-2023, 06:42 PM

The loading manuals are full of +P and baby magnum loads for 38sp. I would guess that there are more bullets and loads for the 38sp than any other cartridge.
To me anything that is not accurate is not interesting. I’ve loaded a lot of revolver ammo and load only one heavy. It’s an old Ruger SBH. It’s running 22.5gr 2400 over 240JHP. Why you ask? Because that is it’s sweet spot or it wouldn’t be cranking that load.
We have a few locals known for blowing up firearms. Do what turns you on.
I don’t think anyone gives the slightest hoot what others do or think. One thing for sure I’m not in awe of somebody hot rodding their 38sp.

LostintheOzone · #**117** 07-24-2023, 07:39 PM

IAM Rand · #**118** 07-26-2023, 11:11 AM

IAM Rand · #**119** 07-30-2023, 05:41 PM

[QUOTE=Torquemada;But honestly, if the 38 special wasnt/isnt "enough gun", you should have bought something else.[/QUOTE]

Um, I believe that was my point. I believe that the new 38s are more than enough gun and that it can be loaded hotter than what general manufacturing is doing.

I thought that I made that point but, I guess I was making a point over some people's head.

SuperMan · #**120** 07-30-2023, 10:59 PM

If anyone has a subscription to LoadData.com they have listed .38-44 loads...

IAM Rand · #**121** 07-31-2023, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torquemada

foolish insult doesnt even register on me,

Wasn't supposed to be an insult but, take it as you will. Don't think I said every 38 produced could handle the increased pressures of an uploaded 38 cartridge. Even people writing for what would be considered reputable magazines (Shooting Illustrated) are asking the same questions.

I pose one simple idea, one that has been posed by many other more talented reloaders than I, and all of the sudden it is sheer madness on my part. Guns blowing up, cats and dogs sleeping together, putting pineapple on pizza.

What will the world come to.

ArchAngelCD · #**122** 08-01-2023, 12:09 AM

Let's relax people, I don't want to have to shut this thread down because of bickering.

ddixie884 · #**123** 08-10-2023, 09:31 PM

I have loaded a lot of 160gr lswc on 5gr Unique. This load will give you about 100 ft./s better velocity than most factory loads. This is Elmer and Skeeters light regular load. Anybody that shoots it normally prefers it to factory RN loads. It gives something over 900 FPS in a 4 inch barrel. Lyman number 45 gave 5.4 as max so I rounded down to 5gr. That was in 73 and probably 50 to 60% of all of my 38 special since then were that load. Try it ,you’ll like it.

cowboy4evr · #**124** 08-10-2023, 10:33 PM

My info source for 38spl +P and 38-44 loads using various powders and bullets comes from " Handloader Magazine " by Brian Pierce in the October 2016 issue . It includes the Lyman 358156 and the Keith 358429 among quite a few others. It's quite a lengthy article using different powders as well . It's worth the read ! Regards Paul

rockquarry · #**125** 08-10-2023, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy4evr

My info source for 38spl +P and 38-44 loads using various powders and bullets comes from " Handloader Magazine " by Brian Pierce in the October 2016 issue . It includes the Lyman 358156 and the Keith 358429 among quite a few others. It's quite a lengthy article using different powders as well . It's worth the read ! Regards Paul

I haven't seen that article in a while, but it may be the best yet on the subject. Lots of data.

Forrest r · #**126** 08-11-2023, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cowboy4evr

My info source for 38spl +P and 38-44 loads using various powders and bullets comes from " Handloader Magazine " by Brian Pierce in the October 2016 issue . It includes the Lyman 358156 and the Keith 358429 among quite a few others. It's quite a lengthy article using different powders as well . It's worth the read ! Regards Paul

Yes that was a fantastic article!!!

All of the "max" loads listed in that article were 20,000psi or less.

I tested some of those load/bullet combo's in a 2" bbl'd snubnosed 38spl. My results (velocity wise) were comparable to what Pierce came up with.

Myself, I never hot rodded the 38spl's, shot countless 1000's of them. But always used 357mags when hotter/heavier loads were needed.

On a side note:
While heavy bullets have their place, a lite bullet does extremely well in the 38spls. I was playing around with that snubnosed 38spl and a p+ load of unique using a 115gr "indoor gallery bullet" pictured, the bullet on the right.

I was getting 1100fps with that 115gr bullet and a lot less recoil compared to the Pierce loads.

Rock185 · #**127** 08-13-2023, 06:00 PM

cowboy4evr, Thanks for mention of that October '16 Handloader article. I dug out my copy. I hadn't paid any attention to the article on loading .38s at the time. Since I chronographed that .38 Spcl. Underwood recently, I was especially interested in the .38-44 data. Looks like the Underwood approximates some of the heavier loads Brian Pearce tested, though he tested in a 6 1/2" barrel and I used a 4"..

rosewood · #**128** 08-16-2023, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock185

cowboy4evr, Thanks for mention of that October '16 Handloader article. I dug out my copy. I hadn't paid any attention to the article on loading .38s at the time. Since I chronographed that .38 Spcl. Underwood recently, I was especially interested in the .38-44 data. Looks like the Underwood approximates some of the heavier loads Brian Pearce tested, though he tested in a 6 1/2" barrel and I used a 4"..

Anyone know of this article is available online. Tks

alwslate · #**129** 08-17-2023, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rosewood

Anyone know of this article is available online. Tks

Back issues of Handloader magazine can be ordered online or over the phone from the publisher.

ArchAngelCD · #**130** 08-17-2023, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwslate

Back issues of Handloader magazine can be ordered online or over the phone from the publisher.

Yes they are.

Here is the link: Issues | Handloader Magazine

lppd4 · #**131** 08-23-2023, 04:09 PM

I just don’t get trying to push any handgun bullets faster than available factory loads. My thoughts are that Winchester/Remington/Federal and others have full time engineers on their payroll and have probably forgot more than I’ll ever know. And I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds in 45 years of reloading. They have much more sophisticated equipment to measure pressure velocities accuracy and there is a wide variety of loads a readily an available. I stick to practice rounds for my loads and work on my marksmanship with an occasional moderate load thrown in there. I have never loaded handgun rounds to max velocities and doubt I ever will just don’t see the need.

IAM Rand · #**132** 08-23-2023, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lppd4

My thoughts are that Winchester/Remington/Federal and others have full time engineers on their payroll and have probably forgot more than I’ll ever know.

And they also have lawyers that tell them, "We don't want to get a law suit, how can we load them so that they are safe."

Don't you think that they back it off a little or maybe alot to "keep it safe." Especially with the new pistols they make. If you load your own you know your own. I am not saying you have to get crazy but, I think hand loaders can do better.

lppd4 · #**133** 08-24-2023, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

And they also have lawyers that tell them, "We don't want to get a law suit, how can we load them so that they are safe."

Don't you think that they back it off a little or maybe alot to "keep it safe." Especially with the new pistols they make. If you load your own you know your own. I am not saying you have to get crazy but, I think hand loaders can do better.

Good point

reddog81 · #**134** 08-24-2023, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

And they also have lawyers that tell them, "We don't want to get a law suit, how can we load them so that they are safe."

Don't you think that they back it off a little or maybe alot to "keep it safe." Especially with the new pistols they make. If you load your own you know your own. I am not saying you have to get crazy but, I think hand loaders can do better.

Did their lawyers tell you this?

rockquarry · #**135** 08-24-2023, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddog81

Did their lawyers tell you this?

The "lawyer" excuse, reason, solution, etc. seems to surface when something more logical and with more evidence doesn't. Erroneous conventional wisdom at it's best. There may be a good reason for something being done the way it's done that doesn't involve lawyers. I'm not a lawyer.

smithra_66 · #**136** 08-24-2023, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJH

Why not use a 357?

If I need a more powerful round I’d rather move up a cartridge IMO. There’s really no downside.

I've already answered that in this thread. With certain long bullets like the Keith 173, they don't fit in magnum brass.

You HAVE to use Special brass in certain guns like N frames with that bullet, and there is nothing unsafe about it.

Elmer Keith was doing this in the 1930s.

smithra_66 · #**137** 08-24-2023, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lppd4

I just don’t get trying to push any handgun bullets faster than available factory loads. My thoughts are that Winchester/Remington/Federal and others have full time engineers on their payroll and have probably forgot more than I’ll ever know. And I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds in 45 years of reloading. They have much more sophisticated equipment to measure pressure velocities accuracy and there is a wide variety of loads a readily an available. I stick to practice rounds for my loads and work on my marksmanship with an occasional moderate load thrown in there. I have never loaded handgun rounds to max velocities and doubt I ever will just don’t see the need.

We've been through this too, on this thread.

Certain calibers like 38 special and 45 Colt were developed prior to modern smokeless powders and associated pressures.

SAAMI specs keep them loaded WAAAY below their safe potential because there are many old guns still in circulation design for the pressures these cartridges made circa 1900, not what they could make circa 2023.

smithra_66 · #**138** 08-24-2023, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

If you go back to my original supposition that gun makers are still making the 38 special and that it is still a relevant firearm, why not make it even more relevant. Elmer pushed the envelope in the 38. The only reason the 357 came about was that they didn't want people to load the more powerful 38 into a gun that wasn't designed to shoot the more powerful round (specifically the 38-44). The cartridge is shorter so that you can load a heaver round into it like the Keith 169-173 gr semi-wadcutter.

Somehow I have spoken heresy here and that I am encouraging people to harm themselves by loading the 38 to such a level that they would blow up their 38 special. My original supposition was that the newly manufacturers are making 38s to a point that they could handle a greater velocity round and keeping the 38 even more relevant.

Sigh, I guess I am just a radical.

This is quite common. People can't wrap their head around the fact that many calibers are downloaded by SAAMI purposely.

The 38 special is a little pipsqueak. The 357 Magnum is a fire breathing dragon. In reality, they are 135 thousands different in length. How could one be that much less powerful?

They aren't able to separate CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL vs. gun strength, the era in which it was designed, and firearms in the wild that shoot it.

The 45 Colt is more powerful than the 44 Mag. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

The 38 Special is MUCH more powerful than the 9mm. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

It's just physics. But again, a lot of people can't keep SAAMI / Factory loads separate from CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL.

No one in their right mind would look at a 9mm side by side with a 38 special and think the 9mm is more powerful. It's just that the factories load 9mm to 100% of its potential. The 38 is loaded to 50-60% of its potential! A handloader can unlock 100% of its potential.

SAAMI specs condition us to keep a hierarchy of cartridges in our heads, but it is many times separate from the full potential of those cartridges for various reasons!

rosewood · #**139** 08-24-2023, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithra_66

This is quite common. People can't wrap their head around the fact that many calibers are downloaded by SAAMI purposely.

The 38 special is a little pipsqueak. The 357 Magnum is a fire breathing dragon. In reality, they are 135 thousands different in length. How could one be that much less powerful?

They aren't able to separate CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL vs. gun strength, the era in which it was designed, and firearms in the wild that shoot it.

The 45 Colt is more powerful than the 44 Mag. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

The 38 Special is MUCH more powerful than the 9mm. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

It's just physics. But again, a lot of people can't keep SAAMI / Factory loads separate from CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL.

No one in their right mind would look at a 9mm side by side with a 38 special and think the 9mm is more powerful. It's just that the factories load 9mm to 100% of its potential. The 38 is loaded to 50-60% of its potential! A handloader can unlock 100% of its potential.

SAAMI specs condition us to keep a hierarchy of cartridges in our heads, but it is many times separate from the full potential of those cartridges!

Well said!

For those of use that understand physics and loading and are confident in our abilities and experiences, we can experiment and enjoy loading. We can push the limits to max potential and be safe. For those that are ignorant of physics and logical deduction, they are best to stick with SAAMI and factory loaded ammo for their own safety and others.

If you can't comprehend that 10 grains of H110 is less powerful than 5 grains of Bullseye, you best stick to factory fodder.

Rosewood

IAM Rand · #**140** 08-24-2023, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithra_66

In reality, they are 135 thousands different in length.

Can you tell me why they lengthened the case that amount and called it 357 magnum? That is the answer to all.

ArchAngelCD · #**141** 08-24-2023, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

Can you tell me why they lengthened the case that amount and called it 357 magnum? That is the answer to all.

They only made the cartridge longer so as to prevent someone from sticking the higher pressure round into a .38 Special and IMO, rightly so. Same goes for the .357 Maximum.

Like said above, not for today's guns but for those of the last.

Norman77 · #**142** 08-25-2023, 09:41 AM

Why not load it hot?

Concerning .38 Special with wadcutters, i had nicely shooting loads running them at like 650 fps with some wiggle room. Not hot.
They would just not shoot accurately in the python being put hotter, and it took me quite some time to really believe this myself, that 2.2 grain of a fast powder is really all it takes. And more is not helping at all.

With the .357 SWC, i zeroed in on 8 grains of True Blue. I tried more - i came down on it too, over the years. I was loading them hotter, but for no use.

Roundabout 27 000 psi (Quickload), up to 1200 fps (measured).
This is he pressure which my cast bullets (up to 18-20% linotype) prefer, and it seems this is not much different with 9 mm and .44 Magnum as well. 9 mm might run a bit hotter in the P226.

This all refers to cast bullets, no gas check, TL design, precision shooting,
after some 10 000 rounds down the tube.

steelslaver · #**143** 08-25-2023, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest r

Modern revolvers like the s&w 586/686, dan wesson 15 series and ruger's gp100 have no issues using the keith 358429/439.

A picture of a couple different "keith" style swc's for the 35cal's.

My favorite is the cramer #26 (silver/uncoated bullet). That large bottom drive band makes the bullet have higher velocities with the same powder weight/charge compared to the other 3 swc's.

The "thompson" bullet used by skeeter that has the 2 crimp grooves that was in a earlier post. I cast these, if you look closely you will see that there is a standard sized hp hole and an special order large hp pin/hole in the other 1. The small is for the 357mag & the large 38spl.

Myself I prefer these 640 series 158gr hp's and 170gr fn's that have a double crimp groove.

At the end of the day more people have blown up their revolvers using bullseye powder and a wc bullet. It got so bad hercules put this statement out trying to give reloaders an understanding of the consequences of their actions.

One of the guys I shoot with on Monday night at the cowboy action range, had 2 Italian Scofields in 38 special, when he shot his loads of 38 wadcutter he got some pierced primers. Guess what all his bullets were seated well below the case mouth.

IAM Rand · #**144** 08-25-2023, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchAngelCD

They only made the cartridge longer so as to prevent someone from sticking the higher pressure round into a .38 Special and IMO, rightly so. Same goes for the .357 Maximum.

Like said above, not for today's guns but for those of the last.

Exactly, they lengthened the cases so that they would not be put into the 38 special revolvers of yesterday. Are you telling me that the 38 specials made today are inferior to the ones that used to be made? And if they make 38 special +P revolvers, aren't they already going down that road.

People here are misunderstanding my post. I put it in reloading instead of ammo for a reason. Everyone knows their guns and what they are capable of doing. If I have a modern Colt or S&W 38 special would I want to juice up the load a little, yes. If I had an old revolver in 38 would I want to do that, no. What are people missing. I am in the 38's corner here. I think that with the modern revolvers, they can handle a little more than pistols made many years ago. There are ammo makers that are already doing this. Shooting magazines have articles about the relevance of the 38 and shooting more stout loads. I just posed the question here and oh boy did it start a firestorm.

Oh well, like I said above, every man's gotta know their limitations. I know mine but, still like pushing the envelope a little every now and then.

reddog81 · #**145** 08-28-2023, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

Exactly, they lengthened the cases so that they would not be put into the 38 special revolvers of yesterday. Are you telling me that the 38 specials made today are inferior to the ones that used to be made? And if they make 38 special +P revolvers, aren't they already going down that road.

People here are misunderstanding my post. I put it in reloading instead of ammo for a reason. Everyone knows their guns and what they are capable of doing. If I have a modern Colt or S&W 38 special would I want to juice up the load a little, yes. If I had an old revolver in 38 would I want to do that, no. What are people missing. I am in the 38's corner here. I think that with the modern revolvers, they can handle a little more than pistols made many years ago. There are ammo makers that are already doing this. Shooting magazines have articles about the relevance of the 38 and shooting more stout loads. I just posed the question here and oh boy did it start a firestorm.

Oh well, like I said above, every man's gotta know their limitations. I know mine but, still like pushing the envelope a little every now and then.

How much extra pressure can a modern Colt Cobra take versus the original?

rockquarry · #**146** 08-28-2023, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddog81

How much extra pressure can a modern Colt Cobra take versus the original?

I wonder if even Colt could answer that one.

sniper · #**147** 08-30-2023, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruggyh

NO in writing but have sectioned a variety of case to be able to determine this. The older 38 cases (ballon head) are the weakest it the head area.

Additionally the 1/8" is huge due to the cross sectional area of the cartridge

And you would have any less in a 38 case shoot out of a 38 revolver.

The SAAMI specification are for the gun and ammunition at the time of inception (when they were created) to insure that all gun marked with the caliber are safe to use the ammunition.

Those "weak gun" you perceive are what the cartridge were intended, period.

If you want to hot rod 38 Special no one is stopping you , but I would preface declaring to everyone it is safe without knowing exactly what they have or intended is irresponsible and unsafe.

I will say again plenty of damaged /blown up guns to prove my point.

I dont think the owner of the picture guns started the day sayin let go blow up a gun.

It's true that many will try to "hot rod" cartridges, and say that somehow, those of us who choose milder loads for our 357 Magnums "aren't getting our money's worth" if we so choose. Hmmm...but in my never-humble opinion, that only goes so far. It hurts my heart to see beautiful guns damaged beyond recovery by?? Could be an accidental/careless double charge or just plain dumb headedness. Truth! We shoot best with what kicks us less, and most jacketed "defense" rounds are designed to operate best at 900-1,000 fps. Cast Bullets, whatever the hardness, again in my opinion, reach their peak of usefulness at 900-1,ooo fps. That is a velocity range that can be safely reached in most modern handguns... .38 Special or 357. The controversy has raged since forever, and that's O.K., but is probably a bit confusing for newer shooters. For that matter, for some of us older ones, too. Do whatever you like, but do it safely. Modern guns, and some older ones, too will not fall apart, like the "Wonderful one-hoss Shay", if abused with full snort+ loads. They will just not last as long.

crstrode · #**148** 08-30-2023, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAM Rand

Sigh, I guess I am just a radical.

Yes, you are a radical.

In this day and age it is radical to speak the truth, and back it up with facts and sound logic.

It is the conformist rabble that shun the light.

IAM Rand · #**149** 08-30-2023, 03:54 PM

Oooooooohhhhhh, you are gonna get this thread closed.

Groo01 · #**150** 08-31-2023, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smithra_66

Do you have any source that mentions 357s being thicker in the head? I don't think they are. The lines don't complicate themselves that much. They just make 38s and 357s out of the same stuff and cut the 38s a bit shorter!

Also, the 38 Special was basically the 357 magnum. 1/8" difference in length doesn't mean that much. In 1935 Elmer Keith wanted the factories to duplicate his turbo 38 Special that he was shooting out of the relatively new 38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers. The length was added and the new cartridge called the "357 Magnum" simply so it would not chamber in old k frames or Colt D-frames of the day. It was not to add more powder capacity. S&W did not want the liability of one of these high pressure rounds getting into a small frame gun.

When the 38 Special was lengthened to create the 357 magnum, a problem arose. The cylinders didn't get any longer! So long bullets that worked in 38 length brass no longer fit into a S&W N frame or a Colt E-Frame gun.

So even today, if one wants to get Magnum performance using the long Keith 173 gr. SWC (which is BY FAR the most accurate bullet at really long ranges), then one must use 38 Special brass.

So it's a little more complicated than you make it. The 357 is great, but it only leaves room for stubby little bullets sticking out in many revolvers (such as N frames, Pythons, etc). You have to push the long bullets in so deep that whatever powder advantage you had, you lose over the 38.

The 38 gets a bad rap as a "weak" cartridge simply because it's loaded to anemic pressures as a result of SAAMI specs because there are millions upon millions of old, weak guns out there. In a strong gun, it is every bit the equal, and sometimes BETTER, than the 357 magnum!

There is no difference in powder room as long as the bullets are seated to the same oal,
The cylinder is the limiter, and keith used it all with the 173 gr swc bullet in a 38 case, to shoot in a 357 case the bullet is crimped over the driving band
the powder room is the same the presures change.