I shoot NRA Action Pistol in the Production Division. Guns I use are a 6 inch M14 with full lug barrel and a 6 inch M686. For Action Pistol the AP-1 target has an X-Ring 4 inches in diameter, a 10 Ring 8 inches in diameter and an 8 ring which is 12 inches in diameter so -- for my game if a .38 load can't hold the X-Ring at 50 yards then it's not worth shooting.

For testing I mounted a red dot sight and used a sandbag rest. I've been experimenting with some 158 gr SWC bullets at 50 yards and the results are not satisfactory --3 shot groups average 8 to 14 inches.

I've tried Bayou, Missouri, and Brazos 158 grain SWC bullets sized at .358 with HiTek coating with Bullseye, N320, Titegroup and Federal primers. Velocities in the 775 to 850 FPS range.

In comparison -- off a sandbag rest with a red dot sight Zero 125 gr JHP with N320 at 1000 FPS holds the X-Ring with 2 inch groups.

Has anyone else had similar experience with poor accuracy at long range with the 158 gr lead SWC? Any suggestions to make them group better?

Are they beveled base bullets? I never get good results with those. A lot of times commercial casters use them because they are easier to cast and easier to load for the end user. They work great for plinking but straight base bullets are far better for precision work in my experience.

I've had great luck with Accurate molds 173 gr. Keith bullet and their copy of the Lyman 358477 150 gr. The key is to match the bullet diameter to what your gun likes, and also find the alloy that it likes. Also, great lube is needed. With commercial cast bullets what they call lube is basically just cheap wax. I use SPG lube which is fantastic and keeps the bore in perfect shape.

One of my guns groups best with Lyman #2 alloy at .357", and another likes 20-1 alloy and .358". You can also weigh each bullet and segregate those that are out of spec.

If you don't cast your own, it will be MUCH easier to make your gun group best with jacketed bullets, unfortunately.

I don't do well at 50yds. Bullseye style but am still trying. The problem doesn't seem to be bullets. I don't use coated bullets, only conventionally lubed cast bullets that I cast. I prefer the H&G #51, a 160 grain SWC design. Bullets are fairly soft. Have you tried conventionally lubed bullets for comparison?

I do most of my shooting off the bench at 50 yards. I like the Missouri Hi-Tech coated leads .358. I've found the RN edges the SWC in accuracy out of my 38/44 Outdoorsman. Unique propellant does the job for me.

Yes. I have found most cast 158 grain SWC loads at .38 Special velocities to be not very accurate at 50 yards. Changing to swaged lead 158 grain SWC bullets improved groups considerably. I have had particularly good results with Magnus swaged 158 grain SWC bullets.

It's been my experience that a cast lead bullet can be just as accurate as a jacketed bullet, but often is not. There are a variety of reasons, some of which smithra 66 commented on above.

Things like lube choice, bore / throat fit, casting voids, bullet mold alignment, consistency, etc. all contribute to less than steller accuracy.

If it were me, I would make sure my cast bullets fit my throats properly. I would measure and weigh each for consistency, and separate as needed. I'd experiment with several different powder, and velocities. I have shot bullets that performed poorly at say 750 fps, but tightened right up at 850 or more fps. Cast bullets are capable of 4 inch or less groups out of a quality revolver at 50 yards, but it takes some work to make it happen.

In the short term, it might be easier to stick with the proven jacketed load at 50 yards if possible, and use your cast stuff for the closer stages if it is sufficiently accurate.

I routinely get sub 2 inch 25 yard, and sub 4 inch 50 yard cast bullet groups out of my .44's and .45's, usually with non coated, SPG lubed home cast, and lots of load development.

Larry

Try Ozark Trail Laser Cast. They by far are the most accurate SWC IN ALL MY 1911’S. The other suggestion is GT Bullets. You can get them in several diameters but you need to slug your barrel first. For all my lead bullet loads I always wind up back with the old faithful Bullseye powder. Doing some testing with CFE pistol and having great results but the jury is still out

I would use these 3 for long distance shooting . EK's 173 gr swc is my first choice and a stellar performer at esp long distance . 2nd is Accurate Molds plain base version of the Ray Thompson bullet , 2 crimp grooves ( Lyman 358156 ) is the gas checked version . 3rd is an old Ideal / Lyman mold 358432 in a 160 gr WC , yes a Wad cutter . It does well in a 357 load , weighs 160 grs and isn't seated deep like other wadcutters . Sadly it was discontinued many years ago but they do turn up from time to time . NOE makes a version . I lucked out and bought an original IDEAL 4 cav iron mold . It has performed better than I can describe . It doesn't sound like you are a caster . Save your $ , don't buy " others " bullets , cast your own and I highly recommend EK's swc for what you are wanting . Tom @ Accurate molds , NOE molds and MP molds are my recommendations for EK's swc . I have an old Lyman 2 cav that works well but it did require a trip back to get the diameter corrected . Good luck , Regards Paul

The issue goes far beyond "brand name" consumer-minded considerations.
("Gee Alice, whay detergent gets your dishes so bright?")

Have you weighed these bullets? Have you measured their actual diameter (with a micrometer, not a dial caliper)?

You don't mention your particular gun specs, ie: throat diameters, bore diameter, presence of thread choke (or not?), etc.
Once you know that, you can then tune your reloading dies to match (with consideration given to the type of brass you use) so you're not ruining your bullets.

Without this info, you won't know where to begin as far as selecting a bullet, especially a cast lead bullet(!), is concerned.

Here are some suggestions from a long time Bullseye pistol shooter who is NRA Distinguished Revolver.

Do you have to shoot SWC? In my Ransom rest testing, RNL always outperformed SWC. With RNL, it was not difficult to get 2.5” or less 10 shot groups at 50 yards.

I used Lyman 358311. Cast with wheel weights.

S&W revolvers are not like Colts. S&W likes fat bullets, cast 0.359” or more.

For lube I use 50% beeswax and 50% wheel bearing grease. It is soft and sticky.

Cases, primers, and powder doesn’t seem to matter. I got great groups with Bullseye, 231, Titegroup, etc. You just need to get them to fly about 775 fps with a 6” barrel.

Go with soft lead, soft lube, fat bullets with a plain base. Don’t waste your time with hard cast, 0.357”, blue wax lubed bevel base commercial bullets.

Once you find a bullet that works, do NOT clean the barrel. It won’t rust with your soft waxy greasy lube. But my Ransom Rest testing showed it takes 25-35 rounds to “settle” a barrel back to good grouping if you cleaned the barrel back to bright shiny cleanness. Don’t clean it! When you get into the 2.5” zone, leave it alone.

I don't recall ever trying the #358311 design at 50 yards, but your positive comments may make such a project worth doing. At 25 yards, the accuracy I've seen with this bullet have been good, about the same as the H&G #51 SWC at that distance.

I realize 50 yard shooting is very different from 25 yard shooting and easily separates good loads from mediocre or poor ones.

Definitely the case even if you swap from jacketed to lead or t' other way around.

It was with a .44, but I've had outstanding performance with hard cast SWC with square base-even at 100 yards. Just for grins & giggles, try a small batch of Berry THPs. While I haven't shot them at 50 yards, even doubling my 25 yard groups keeps you well inside the X ring. My personal suspicion has more to do with the coating on the bullet, but I'll bow to the experience of those above.

"Action" pistol target with an X ring?????????? OK, it's a game.

Added edit: Come to think of it, try the regular flat point Berry's. In 9 mm I've hovering close to 1" at 25 yards. From prone with a red dot sight.

I cannot find Ozark Trail bullets.

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Handloading accurate 50 yard ammo is tough ...
The problem may lie in your reloading ... the steps you take how you preform the steps , case expansion for bullet seating , seating the bullet without sizing it doiwn in the case , undersized bullets will drive you nuts trying to figure out where they come from . Seating bulets in one step ... crimping in a seperate step ... most importantly ... powder charging ...\
the powder charges Must be extremely consistent .
I would buy some factory loaded lead 158 gr. ammo , test them and see ... is it my handloads or...?
I've been working on castin bullets and loading accurate 38 specal ammo for a good 50 years ... and It's tough to do !
Gopod Luck ... Load Safe ,
Gary

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If I were going to eliminate things that were not aiding accuracy, I'd start with the bullet. Coated bullets are all the rage, but not if you are looking for exceptional accuracy at 50 yards. Old PPC shooters used to get exceptional accuracy with lead bullets and newer "Precision" revolver shooters are causing a resurgence in interest. You really need to pick the minds of ones who know, if you can find them. You might start with joining Bullseye-L Forum

...I'm going to lay in some bullets for accuracy. My go to bullets have been Missouri coated SWCs. Since I'm not the greatest pistol shooter, I've attributed inaccuracy to my ineptness. MAYBE I can improve scores with better bullets.

What do you all think of heavy plated RN bullets? Or would it be better just to get some FMJ RNs? I got some heavy plated 9mm bullets one time for a 'project' that didn't concern accuracy, but I was impressed by them nonetheless.

This is going to be an interesting project. Between my 6" 686 and my Ruger PPC maybe I can improve accuracy at close ranges and beyond.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I wouldn't bother with the thick plate bullets*. I added an edit above to note that with Berrys flat points in 9 mm I can get real close to 1 inch at 25 yards. With a red dot and from prone. Iron sighted handguns and I don't get along at 25 yards-and beyond-anymore if we're talking about itty-bitty groups.

* I haven't noted any ill effects with the standard plate at around 1250 f/s. I expect a lot of the alleged drama around plated bullets has to do with the quality and the thickness of the plating.

Many Moons ago, I sent a lot of 148 & 158 lead, down range at our outdoor range
and found out that the factory ammo was not the best for 50 yard targets, even with a 6" barrel, off hand.

Shooting at a steel pig at 100 yards was very interresting.
The 158 would hit about five feet short, in the dirt and the 148 would
strike the dirt about 20 yards short of the target.

A 357 magnum load would hit at POA.

Good luck finding the right loads.

Many thanks to all for the excellent advice and guidance! For reference I did weigh two sets of cast bullets to look at the amount of deviation -- picked out 10 bullets and weighed each one here are the results:

BRAZOS 158 grain SWC Hi Tek Coated

161.0
161.7
161.3
160.7
160.7
161.6
160.8
161.0
161.1
160.8

BAYOU 158 Grain SWC Hi Tek Coated

156.9
155.9
156.4
155.7
157.0
155.9
156.9
156.5
156.4
155.9

For now my Bianchi Cup load will most likely be the Zero 125 gr JHP behind N320 powder and Federal Primer at between 950 and 1000 FPS so it makes 120 Power Factor. When shooting standing offhand (Im at the age now where hitting the deck in prone position under the time limits imposed is becoming very difficult) on the 50 yard stage of the NRA Action Pistol Practical Course I need to have the self confidence that if I do my job the bullets will land in the 8 inch diameter 10 ring.

The 158's appear to work OK up to 25 yards -- beyond that they're not too good.

I agree that you should try swaged bullets. Back when I was an active IDPA shooter I used thousands of Zero’s swaged RNLs over 4.1 grains of Titegroup and they would hold 1.5” at 25 yards from my M67-1. They ran ~830 fps from the 4” barrel and didn’t lead. With a 6” barrel and a lower power factor you could back off the charge a good bit.

I understand why you want the SWCs, but if the RNs shoot better they might be a better choice.

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Regards,

Chuck

Has anybody tried 148 grain Hollow Based Wadcutters at 50 yards? They do the job well at 25 yards out of my PPC revolver ( a Combat master piece). Our range does not have a 50 yard range or I would try them myself.

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

Plated bullets are the worst of all types for accuracy. They aren't hard like jacketed bullets, but they are just a little harder than lead bullets. They don't seem to grip the rifling like the other two.

I used them for action pistol but never bullseye work.

One time I was by myself at the outdoor range and I was playing 'mortar' with wadcutters out of a snub. I was dropping them pretty close to the target at 75 yards.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I have lined up my rear sight at the base of my front sight
for maximum range targets with loads that were under powered
or needed more elevation, to get near a traget, past it's abilities.

However I only did if on paper or "Pest" that did not hurt, if the shot went wild. ;
which happened a lot, when passing the "Green light" target area.

While we've been concentrating on bullets, another factor has crossed my mind: velocity. Waay back in the last century I was gifted a couple of boxes of the new Winchester target .45 ACP loaded with a 200 gr SWC bullet at 710 f/s and told it was the cats pajamas for target work.

Back in those days I could group 5 rounds at 25 yards in 2.5 inches one handed with my handloads using Speers 200 gr lead SWC. I was lucky to stay in the black with the magic factory rounds. I started wondering if it was the loads, so I pulled down some of the factory ammo and reloaded the same cases with the factory bullet but my powder charge. I was now back to good groups.

I no longer recall what my powder charge was, but it was faster than the factory stuff. The slower velocity allowed my poor follow through enough time to wobble off dead center. Moral of the story being that powder puff loads sometimes aren't the solution.

Added: PPC shooters used wadcutters at 50 yards, but the guns that did best had a different twist than the S&W 1-18.75. 1-10 was popular.

I don't shoot .38 swc's at 50 yards, so I have nothing useful to contribute.
As an observation, it seems odd that both of your revolvers behave the same way. Excuse my ignorance, but why not just shoot the jacketed bullets that group well? Is SWC lead a requirement?
I have a lot of experience shooting big bore revolvers at 50 and 100 yards (when I was younger). Unfortunately none of it is relevant to your situation.
Lastly, make sure the brinell hardness of your bullets are proper for the chamber pressure of your loads. Good luck and good shooting.
Ray

The lighter loads sometimes shed enough velocity at 50 yards to destabilize. It would be interesting to know how well the OP's loads shoot at 25 yards.

Answered my own question by reading a article in the newest "Guns" magazine. They have an article on the S&W 52's. In the article it states the S&W accuracy requirement was a 5 shot group in 2 inches at 50 yards. If I could do that now I would be ecstatic! 40 years ago I could probably have done that, but not now!!

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USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

The main problem here is the factory twist rate of 1 in 18-3/4. The factory barrel for light target loads (700 to 850 fps) is borderline too slow. That's why all the PPC guns that had to shoot small groups at 50 yd. had a custom barrel with 1 in 10 or 1 in 14, or a Python barrel with 1 in 14. The slow bullets spin down below the needed stabilizing RPM before 50 yards in a factory barrel. They start out spinning faster and stay above the minimum in a tighter twist barrel. The heaviest bullets are best for long distance (180 for .357, 300 for .44, etc.), because they retain forward and rotational velocity longer than lighter bullets.

Load some of the bullets you have now to 920 or above fps and see how they do at 50 yards. With a higher velocity, the bullets will start out at a higher rpm and stay above the minimum rpm longer. You'll make yourself crazy trying to get 50 yard groups with light loads and factory barrel. All my guns shoot tight groups with several bullets by doing this. They are great with cast and lubed lead, polymer or powder coat, or jacketed. The only ones that don't work for me are the copper plated Berry's and Ranier. Those give a shotgun pattern in my guns. Bottom line - more velocity will give you tighter groups.

My current Bianchi 686 with a 6", 1 in 10 twist .355 Walther barrel shoots 3/8" groups at 25 yd. and a little over 1" at 50 yd. in a Ransom Rest. Sadly, I can't shoot like that holding it by hand. The bullets are .357 Zero 125 gr. JHP going around 1050 fps.

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protocalldesign.com

I’m sorry. Oregon Trail Laser cast. Just google laser cast bullets.

A little different spin on the 35cal bullets. (no pun intended)

Decades ago (1980's) I cast/shot only 2 bullets for the 38spl/357mags. The lyman 358311 158gr rn and the h&g #50 148gr wc. By the 1990's I got interested in molds and swaging bullets. Did a lot of testing/shooting over the years with different firearms chambered in 38spl and 357mag. Contenders, s&w's, colts, dan wessons, charter arms, rugers. Along with custom 1 in 10 twist and 1 in 11 twist barrels.

Several years ago, I decided to thin the herd and sold off all of my swaging equipment and most of my molds. Before selling everything off I decided to do head-to-head testing with the bullets I cast and swage. I tested the bullets in 38spl cases and 357mag cases. I used firearms with 2", 2 1/2", 4" (2x), 6" (3x), 8" & 10" bbl's. Twist rates were 1 in 10, 1 in 11, 1 in 18 7/8. Only used 6 different powders in the testing, 3 standard powders (bullseye/be-86/unique) and 3 magnum powders (2400/h110/mp-300).

Used these bullets for testing.

Top row left to right:
Home swaged 158gr jacketed hp using a 380acp case for the jacket.
Mihec 640 series 158gr fn hp
Lyman 358439 158gr swc hp
cramer #26 150gr swc hp
lyman 358156 150gr gc swc hp
Bottom row left to right:
Lyman 358477 140gr swc hp
cramer 158gr rn hp "hunter" bullet
h& g #51 swc hp


I also tested these hb bullets, left to right
lyman 358431 155gr hb swc
raphine 150gr fn hb
Mihec 148gr hbwc

The back of the bus:
Bullets with a bigger/thicker bullet base (bottom drive band) tended to not only have higher velocities for the same load. They tended to be more accurate. Of the 4 different " Keith style swc molds I had, the cramer #26 performed the best velocity and accuracy wise. Sold the rest, still have the #26. As you can see in has the largest bullet base.


The lyman 358311 has a large bullet base also.

The front of the bus:
Where the front drive band or bullet's shoulder end up in the leade of the cylinders plays a huge roll in accuracy. The bottom bullet is seated out further into the leade improving accuracy.

Bullets like the lyman 358156 and the Mihec 640 series bullets have a high & low crimp groove/2 crimp grooves. This allows the reloader to set the bullet out further (longer oal) into the leade of the chambers.

Left, that mihec 640 bullet (sized to .358") crimped in the bottom crimp groove loaded in 38spl cases.
Right: The h&g #50 (sized to .357") loaded long/crimped in the middle crimp groove loaded in 38spl cases.
Both reloads have a heavy, consistent crimp. Crimping is subjective & I've always used a heavy crimp on everything I reload. I also use a expander designed for cast bullets, no wasp waist in the reloads/can't see the bullet in the case.


Try to stay away from too hard of an alloy if you use cast bullets. I use 8/9bhn alloy to cast 99%+ of my revolver/pistol needs. On extremely rare occasions I use a 12/13bhn alloy to stop the cast bullets from "skidding" with hot magnum loads.

I don't do much @ 50yds anymore but I do have plinking/blammo ammo loads for the 357mag and the 44mag.
A mihec 640 series 250gr fn hp in a beater s&w 629/blammo ammo load for 50 & 100 yards. 6-shot group @ 50yds.

More blammo ammo 357mag loads shot with a s&w 686 and garbage mixed brass. Doesn't matter if I use the Mihec 640 158gr fn hp or the cramer 158gr rn hp. Or 5.5gr of bullseye or 6.0gr of bullseye. They shoot +/- 2" 6-shot groups @ 50yds.


All measurements are outside to outside.

Anyway, I'd be looking for bullets:
with large bases
soft alloys
multiple crimp grooves or the ability to crimp them out in the leades of your cylinders
bullets that don't have sharp shoulders or if they do have sharp shoulders they have a large/long front drive band like these swc's. They also have a generous crimp groove.

Even today ... Elmer Keith's bullet designs just Keep On Trucking ...
Maybe the old guy did know a thing or two ...
About two years ago I bought a reprint of his 1936 book " Sixgun Cartridges & Loads " except for loads with Hi-Vel #2 powder about 98% of the book is still relevant , casting and bullet alloy's haven't changed a lick . The reprint is still available on Amazon fo $10 to $15 ... and if you reload ... and want to read exactly what loads Elmer Keith used ... snag one ... best $15 reloading book I ever bought !

Note ... This is not his later book "Sixguns" ...
... but "Sixgun Cartridges & Loads" 1936 , this is the $15 Reprint by Silver Rock Publishing ... don't get em confused !
Gary

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NRA Member

Forest has some great information there. I would add that Lyman cherry makers did not always follow the same pattern. I have a 358477 with a thick base that I sot for years with the 5.4 gr of Unique that came with most Lyman manuals in the 70's to 90's, It is now labeled as way to hot but 5 gr Unique does a nearly equal job.

I recognize that you are buying bullets but consider that you don't build a line of racing cars by buying off the shelf parts. I would find a small one man casting shop, call him and tell him what you want and offer to buy a lot at a slight premium.

__________________
Front sight and squeeze

What is wrong with casting your own? Been casting for my handguns for the better part of 50 years.

__________________
USMC 69-93 Combat Pistol Inst.

There's nothing wrong with a swc, they're my "go-to" style bullet in the 45acp's and for plinking in the 44cal's (the +/- 245gr hp pictured in the above post).

Note the 44cal swc is for plinking.

The difference is all I have to do is marry the oal/throat in the 45acp bbl to the shoulder of the swc bullet and the magic happens. 3 lite bullets for the 45acp. Two of them are swc's, with the 5f cramer being 175gr instead of the standard 200gr because it's has a hollow base.

Same 4.3gr load of clays (excellent load for any +/- 200gr bullet in the 45acp/1911's). 5-shot groups @ 50ft.


With a revolver it's a little different. There's freebore in the cylinders then the leade. After that there's the bbl gap and then the forcing cone. There's a lot of jumping, reshaping, distortion happening.

A swc with a sharp front drive band/shoulder is more susceptible to this type of distortion. If any distortion happens the nose of the swc follows and this upsets the yawl of the bullet.

More chicken scratch targets. Earlier I showed 50 yard targets using a 640 series & a rn bullet. This was the 25yd targets using the same loads (5.5gr and 6.0gr of bullseye). But also in the 25yd targets are a swc, namely the cramer #26.


The #26 bullet was tested @ 50yds with the other 2 bullets. It didn't end up in the picture.


That's because it (the swc bullet) fell out @ 50yds. The other 2 actually did better @ 50yds then @ 25yds. Groups are not linier when target shooting with pistols/revolvers. If I'm getting 1" groups @ 25yds I expect to get 2 1/2" or 3" groups @ 50yds. I chalk it up to old age & a deuterating skillset.

When you pull the trigger the initial pressure/short start pressure pushes on the bullet's base. Anything under pressure goes to the least point of resistance. This is why hb bullets, long bodied bullets (wc's) or bullets with large bottom drive bands/bullet bases tend to do better accuracy wise/stay strait.

That's only 1/2 the accuracy battle. The front of the bullet is bouncing/sliding into the leade of the chamber of the cylinder. And then again into the forcing cone. Any skidding/flattening/canting of the front drive band of a swc causes the nose of the swc to follow. A wc bullet has no nose and will straiten any initial distortion out with it's long body. This is where the faster twist/spin comes into play. A fn bullet is affected more then a wc bullet by this distortion. But it does better then the heavy nosed swc's.

fn style bullets became popular in the silhouette competitions for a reason.

Keith designed an excellent bullet. But he also had a custom revolver made to shoot them in. I have a beater 629 truck gun. It will put 5 shots in a group and have 1 flier consistently.

If I were to recommend a bullet for the 38spl/50yd line I'd go with a type 3 wc like this 160gr version.
160 Grain Wadcutter (.359)-359-160-WC

The most accurate cast bullet from all my 38 specials and 357 magnums is Lyman #358432 the 160 gr, version plain base wadcutter .
I don't know why ... but it just works .
Lyman has dropped this mould ... I found a single cavity Lyman on Ebay and when I discovered how accurate it shot , in all my revolvers ... I discovered NOE makes it in a 4 cavity aluminum mould ... I ordered one so fast it made my head spin ... and now this is just about the only bullet I cast and load !
If you haven't tried it ... you need to !
See post #35 for a link for this bullet at Matt's Bullet's .
Not many reloaders / shooters know about this neat bullet ...
...It's a Sleeper !
Gary

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NRA Member

I used to shoot a ton of NRA Action Pistol in the late-'80s until the early 2000s. My primary bullet for practice and local competitions was the Bull-X 158gr RN and SWC bullets, and I had zero problems with X-ring accuracy out to 50 yards with them. Unfortunately, they went out of business years ago, but I probably have 20,000 of their bullets still laying around. I just coated them with Alox and had no issues with leading.

As for large matches/Bianchi Cup, I moved to Remington 125gr SJHP bullets. Accuracy was a bit better, and surprisingly the point of impact with my 158gr practice ammo was the same.

Is it possible that your barrel just doesn't like 158gr lead? Have you tried those bullets in other .38s just as a test?

Change to 357 mag.,158 lswc, Alliant 2400 @ 13.0 grs. Starline brass.

That load won't give the OP acceptable recoil for the sustained part of the match.

Speer 158 LSWC over 3.5 grains of Bullseye will do it at 50 yards.