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Old 04-16-2024, 11:18 AM
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Default Heavy roll crimp-

My original post got deleted somehow so I hope this isnt a repost.
So I am loading 357 again, full house loads w/ W296.
The question is, what is meant by heavy roll crimp?
It seems to be subjective. Maybe its covered in the Lyman manual- I should go back over that.
To me “heavy” is an additional 1/2 turn once die meets case mouth and “light” is quarter turn on my Lee die.
The XTP still spins freely in the case once crimped.
My loads dont back out when shooting.
What does the wolf pack say?
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Old 04-16-2024, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgeargrndrr View Post
The XTP still spins freely in the case once crimped.
Huh?

Are you saying once loaded you can spin the bullet in the case? The only way that can happen is if the case wasn't resized. I have never experienced that.

Edit: or as others mentioned, the expander is too big or the bullet is too small...

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Old 04-16-2024, 11:47 AM
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If you're not getting a lot on unburned powder you're probably fine. IF it's a new load/bullet combo I'd try the additional turn of the crimp die. If you're getting the crimp into the cannelure it should be OK - IMO.
I've used 296/110 and crimped without worrying how 'heavy' it is in both 357 & 44 mag.
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Old 04-16-2024, 12:12 PM
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Crimp enough to prevent bullet movement under recoil - and no more.

Many handloaders crimp too heavily. After more than fifty years of loading full power .357 and .44 Magnum cartridges, it's hard for me to buy into the "heavier crimp makes powder burn completely" theory. An adequate crimp works fine. My experience has almost entirely been with cast bullets.

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Old 04-16-2024, 12:33 PM
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With a copper jacket bullet, a medium crimp on the "Can" is usually enough
to keep a bullet from jumping forward in it's case, with a heavy load.

I only use a "Heavy" crimp, when I am loading LEAD bullets with a heavy load
that I use in my hunting loads, for maximum velosity and penetration.

Your bullets "Spin", when crimped. Interresting.
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Old 04-16-2024, 12:53 PM
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Would check the bullet diameter...

I had a problem with this once. in a rifle. Using a lee neck sizing die on .308. Take sized case, insert bullet to cannelure, run through collet crimp, bullets could spin. and be pushed into case.
Tried with a larger diameter .309/.310 cast bullet, and it was nice and tightly crimped in with no movement.
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Old 04-16-2024, 02:30 PM
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Thank you all for the suggestions.
XTP diameter is .3565. I could not measure the cannelure diameter.

I might have found the culprit of the spinning bullets.
Cases are fully sized. I exclusively use winchester 1x fired nickel plated brass. 1.2855”. *Edit: for full house defensive loads
I tried on regular winchester brass which is slightly longer at 1.2857”. Dies were probably set up with this case years ago for hard cast medium loads.
The xtp projectiles dont spin on the regular brass or it takes a good firm grasp of the bullet make it spin.
Which leads me to believe that :
1)There is 0.002” less crimp
2) nickel plated may have less friction and allows the bullet to spin in the roll crimp.
I dont have any other jacketed bullets with cannelures to test out.
And this of course does not happen on hard cast.
Attempted to upload a gif but it was too big.
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Old 04-16-2024, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgeargrndrr View Post
I might have found the culprit of the spinning bullets.
Cases are fully sized. I exclusively use winchester 1x fired nickel plated brass. 1.2855”.

I tried on regular winchester brass which is slightly longer at 1.2857”. Dies were probably set up with this case years ago for hard cast medium loads.

Which leads me to believe that :
1)There is 0.002” less crimp
Yep, or close enough. The case isn't travelling as far into the case so the crimp is less aggressive.

I've never had consistent enough components to just "set it and forget it." I set the dies up every time.

Good catch.
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Old 04-16-2024, 03:32 PM
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If the case is properly sized you should not be able to move the bullet even without a crimp. Should not be able to turn it, push it in or pull it out with all your strength. I've bad luck with Lee rifle dies where the bullet drops all the way down in the case after sizing.
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Old 04-16-2024, 05:30 PM
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"Heavy" is completely subjective. It would be possible to dimensionally define a crimp, although difficult to measure a surface or case mouth edge folded inward from O.D. What would be far more difficult to define and measure would be brass yield strength and ductility (elongation percentage) to make bullet pull uniform. We'll just get by with "heavy", sort of like "finger tight".

This is why I've graduated to light loads in my old age. I'm selling my remaining quantities of H110 and W296 at the next swap meet. Bullseye behind soft lead goes much farther per pound.

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Old 04-16-2024, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer-mark View Post
If the case is properly sized you should not be able to move the bullet even without a crimp. Should not be able to turn it, push it in or pull it out with all your strength. I've bad luck with Lee rifle dies where the bullet drops all the way down in the case after sizing.
This is what I was thinking too. Likely your expander is slightly oversized. You should have enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place prior to crimping. The crimp is really to hold the bullet in the case against the inertia of recoil or the impact of feeding in an autoloader. Cast bullets probably fit tight because they’re sized .358” or .359”. You can polish your expander button down with a drill and fine sandpaper or try a different one if you have another set of dies.
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Old 04-16-2024, 06:49 PM
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I have had a few expander plugs that allowed the bullet to move after being seated I took them out and reduced their diameter by a thousandth of an inch or so and that's how the problem giving them much more neck tension because of a smaller amount of expansion

As to a roll crimp for a max load of 296 or H110, I always use the Lee factory crimp die that applies a collet crimp to the brass

This crimp is absolutely fantastic and it will even work on projectiles that do not have a cannelure
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Old 04-16-2024, 08:19 PM
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I think that “heavy crimp” may depend in part on the crimp groove or cannelure that you are roll crimping into. I try to get the case mouth all of the way into the groove but without distorting the bullet.

Many guys have success with a Lee factory crimp die. I prefer a Redding Profile Crimp when doing a roll crimp. Either way, crimping after the bullet is fully seated (IOW in a separate step) makes more sense to me than crimping while you’re still pushing the bullet into the case.
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Old 04-16-2024, 10:36 PM
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Default Can you make or convert to.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgeargrndrr View Post
Thank you all for the suggestions.
XTP diameter is .3565. I could not measure the cannelure diameter.

I might have found the culprit of the spinning bullets.
Cases are fully sized. I exclusively use winchester 1x fired nickel plated brass. 1.2855”. *Edit: for full house defensive loads
I tried on regular winchester brass which is slightly longer at 1.2857”. Dies were probably set up with this case years ago for hard cast medium loads.
The xtp projectiles dont spin on the regular brass or it takes a good firm grasp of the bullet make it spin.
Which leads me to believe that :
1)There is 0.002” less crimp
2) nickel plated may have less friction and allows the bullet to spin in the roll crimp.
I dont have any other jacketed bullets with cannelures to test out.
And this of course does not happen on hard cast.
Attempted to upload a gif but it was too big.


....JPEG files? They are much smaller than Gifs.

It wouldn't hurt to tighten up the die just a tad.
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Old 04-16-2024, 10:46 PM
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You fellas hit the nail on the head.
I looked at my resizer/decapper a little more closely.
Its an RCBS 38 spl. Die set Without any 357 designation.
It was slightly expanding the case mouth. I erroneously assumed all 38 dies work with 357.
Switching to my Hornady set, zero issues with bullets spinning any longer.
Million thanks for the input

Oh, I seat and crimp in two separate steps.
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Old 04-17-2024, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgeargrndrr View Post
You fellas hit the nail on the head.
I looked at my resizer/decapper a little more closely.
Its an RCBS 38 spl. Die set Without any 357 designation.
It was slightly expanding the case mouth. I erroneously assumed all 38 dies work with 357.
Switching to my Hornady set, zero issues with bullets spinning any longer.
Million thanks for the input

Oh, I seat and crimp in two separate steps.
Your RCBS dies from the 1960s or 1970s? And you do not have Carbide Dies?
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Old 04-17-2024, 02:41 AM
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I think one of the best books to buy is Author's Scovill on reloading the Colt SAA. Goes into detail on crimping, case sizes vs bullet diameter, lead and jacketed, and so on. While focused on the Colt SAA calibers the information is pertinent to all reloading.
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Old 04-17-2024, 09:01 AM
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It being a 38 die set is fine, the only difference between a 38 set and a 38/357 set is the 357 stamp. The dies for the shorter cartridge can be adjusted to load the longer one but not vice versa.

At any rate, being RCBS dies a call or email to RCBS customer service will almost assuredly result in them sending you a new expander. They are easy to deal with and have a great customer service department.
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Old 04-17-2024, 09:50 AM
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First you need to correct the case sizing / expander problem you have ...
The XTP should Not spin freely in the case ... before or after it has been crimped .
Go back and read the manual again and see if they adress this ...
Usually a sizer sizes down the case enough ... Lee Carbide will even oversize at times ... but case tension should keep the XTP from spinning . Are you using dies designed to load Cast or Coated bullets ... these use an expander that runs larger than an expander designed for jacketed XTP's . Jacketed bullets should measure .357" , cast .358" - 359" .
Special larger expanders are used in die sets for Lead Bullet and are sold as Cowboy Dies .
Check what you got and let us know .
38 special dies will reload 357 magnum just fine ... my RCBS are 50 years old and it works ... Sounds like someone set your 38 spcl. die up to load cast bullets ... .358" and your jacketed bullets are on the slim side .3565" ... tolerances stacked to give you "Loose Fit" ... Die adjustment and/or larger bullet would have solved it ... but New Dies are Nice ...Load Safe
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Old 04-17-2024, 12:05 PM
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It's possible to crimp enough to expand the case just south of the crimp, allowing the bullet to spin in the case. You can usually ID this condition by the cartridge not seating fully in the chamber without a push from behind
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Old 04-17-2024, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer-mark View Post
If the case is properly sized you should not be able to move the bullet even without a crimp. Should not be able to turn it, push it in or pull it out with all your strength. I've bad luck with Lee rifle dies where the bullet drops all the way down in the case after sizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggibson511960 View Post
"Heavy" is completely subjective. It would be possible to dimensionally define a crimp, although difficult to measure a surface or case mouth edge folded inward from O.D. What would be far more difficult to define and measure would be brass yield strength and ductility (elongation percentage) to make bullet pull uniform. We'll just get by with "heavy", sort of like "finger tight".

This is why I've graduated to light loads in my old age. I'm selling my remaining quantities of H110 and W296 at the next swap meet. Bullseye behind soft lead goes much farther per pound.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rdgeargrndrr View Post
You fellas hit the nail on the head.
I looked at my resizer/decapper a little more closely.
Its an RCBS 38 spl. Die set Without any 357 designation.
It was slightly expanding the case mouth. I erroneously assumed all 38 dies work with 357.
Switching to my Hornady set, zero issues with bullets spinning any longer.
Million thanks for the input

Oh, I seat and crimp in two separate steps.
Never have I had a bullet turn in a .357 magnum case after the bullet is seated in the case or after roll crimp. Like has been said the heavy roll crimp is a matter of interpretation. The heavier the roll crimp is when reloading, shortens the life of the brass because of splitting the mouth of case.
Looks like you got this problem figured out now.
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Old 04-17-2024, 05:46 PM
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Default I use a spacer ring...

...with my .38 dies that fit under the locknut of the die. They are a few bucks at Midway and other places.
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Old 04-17-2024, 07:04 PM
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Question

I would remeasure the bullets: they might be 124gr 9mm vs. 125gr 38 cal...

Also, what device used in measuring them? Calibration?

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Old 04-17-2024, 08:43 PM
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Take a close look at the crimp of a factory round of 357 that is considered full house....... with a magnifying glass or something similar.
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Old 04-18-2024, 01:00 AM
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I have winchester LRN around here somewhere, that the crimp was so heavy, it BOTTLE NECKED them into a wierd, almost 38/32 caliber monstrosity
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Old 04-18-2024, 05:51 PM
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I have winchester LRN around here somewhere, that the crimp was so heavy, it BOTTLE NECKED them into a wierd, almost 38/32 caliber monstrosity
...I was just really heavy handed in reloading ammo. I have since learned that if everything is set right, it takes very little effort.
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Old 04-19-2024, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
...I was just really heavy handed in reloading ammo. I have since learned that if everything is set right, it takes very little effort.
its factory loaded winchester 140 grain LRN
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Old 04-19-2024, 10:20 AM
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I find that surplus powder WC 820 aka AA9 needs a heavier crimp than 2400 or 296/110. It also needs a heavier bullet. That is accomplished for me by an extra 1/4 turn on the crimp die.
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