I bought a pound of Universal as an alternative to Unique because my supply is getting low, and it is nowhere to be found locally.
158- 160 gr. cast bullets for ~.38 Spl.+P loads. 357 brass, Standard primers, 5.2 gr, as recommended on the can label, looking for a load that is pleasant to shoot, economical and useful for general purposes.
The results were not encouraging. Cases were smoked about halfway from the front, and lots of soot, indicating a low-pressure load.
I don't want to throw the remainder of the can away, and probably can't sell the partial can, so do you think increasing the loading to 5.5 gr., or the 5.7 gr. shown on the can label for 357 Magnum loads will reduce the smoking and unburned powder?
Orrr...suggestions for another Unique replacement powder that I may be able to grab if/when It is available. At one time, I used Blue Dot, and liked it with my cast load, soooo...if it becomes available, I may buy some, even from an Internet bandit.

I have always loaded Universal just like it was a Unique. I have no issues with it.

I don't recall ever having a problem with smoked brass or other indications of low pressure when using Universal. Powder burn appeared to be normal. I only tried a couple of pounds of Universal about twenty or so years ago. It measured well, much better than Unique, but I never got quite the accuracy with Universal as I did with Unique. I've since gotten away from Unique, only because of poor metering.

I've found Bullseye, 231, and # 2400 will do all I need for any handgun cartridge.

For years, the only powders on my shelf were Unique, Bullseye and 2400. I understand that Alliant powders are unobtainable. That is worrisome. Guess it is time for me to branch out.

Couldn't even count the amount of universal clays I burned in 38spl p+ loads (158gr cast & 4.7gr universal).

Low end universal loads are dirty. Perhaps you should look on the hodgdon reloading data sight. 5,5gr or 5.7gr is on the low side for 357mag/158gr bullets.

You should be in the 6.2gr/6.3gr range

Maybe it's just going to be dirty for the loads sniper is after. I'd try some Titegroup for the lighter target type loads you're looking for.

Since you say you are using .357 brass but .38+P load data, I see no reason you can't go up since you must be using a revolver chambered for .357. The website says the maximum load in .357 is 6.2 gr.

.357 brass is thicker walled than .38 brass in my experience. That might be part of the issue. If you used .38 brass it might help. Loading .357 brass with .38 loads has never worked well for me.

There are different versions of the powders with "Universal" in their names: make sure you are correctly identifying which of the three you have!

International
Universal
Clays

Cheers!

__________________
Sit Reloader Sentiret

I think maybe you meant to type "Clays"....

"There are different versions of the powders with "Clays"...."

International Clays
Universal Clays
and just plain ol' Clays.

The more recent labels are less confusing than the old ones I think.

Clays performs much like Bullseye or Red Dot.

No Universal or Trail Boss has been made since 2019. Hogdon claims there will be some someday but they do not know when.

Alliant powder has always been available around here. I stocked up around 1992 and am glad I did.

__________________
S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

That powder does better with a 70% load in pistols and shot gun loads
if you are doing 12 Ga. trap loads.

It gets dirty with the slower fps loadings.

Never used Universal for any metallic center, but have burned lots of Universal Clays in small bore shot shells where it operates at very low pressure. It simply disappears as if you loaded with lighter fluid. Velocity doesn’t matter much in shot shells as long as you get the load up to 1,200 fps.

I'm puzzled. Universal is Universal Clays.

As glenwolde noted above, Hodgdon produced three flavors of Clays. In my opinion, their marketing folks hosed things up. Naming three different powders Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays confused people. Get the wrong one and you'll have troubles; they're different burn rates. Plain Clays is the fastest of the bunch and using it with Universal Clays or International Clays load data will cause overpressure. They got smart late and now call this trio Clays, International and Universal.

I tried Universal for low power 45 Colt loads and had results like yours, with smoky cases and such. I think it just doesn’t do well with low end loads. I have had excellent results with it in 9mm.

Are your 100% certain about that?
I may be mistaken (and I'm not at home where I can confirm it at the moment) BUT I'm pretty sure I have two different powders in my stash - Universal, and Universal Clays, and IIRC they are two different powders....

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

Yep! They changed the labelling to reduce the confusion. Check the 1lb and 8lb jugs on their website: Hodgdon Universal(R) Note that one shows "Clays technology" in the green band under Universal and the other just has a green band. FWIW, my 8 lb jug only shows the green band.

Attached Images

	Universal_1LB_LR__33915.jpg (70.2 KB, 30 views)
	Universal_8LB_HR__78992.jpg (37.9 KB, 30 views)

So are you saying they have always been the same powder from the same company - just two different names on the labels? That's odd.
Its not like HP38 vs W231 or H110 vs W296 where the same powder has two different brands AND names.
I'll have to check when I get home, but I would have sworn some of my reloading books show different load data for Universal vs Universal Clays.
Maybe I'm thinking Clays vs. Universal Clays.
Either way, making such a jumble of the names seems like a bad idea...

__________________
Send lawyers, guns & money...

It was orig:
Clays
International Clays
Universal Clays

..3 different powders , 3 different burn rates,,3 different applications.

The maker realized that the common 'Clays' name attached to each one of the 3 different powders was causing some issues with reloaders.

SO,,
The three powders had their names changed to:
Clays
International
Universal

No changes in the burn rates or reloading data for each.


Lables changed to note the name changes, The appearance of the powders changed over time as well as where the powders were actually mfg'd. AUstralia at first. Then Canada. A fire in a facility in Australia forced closure and ultimatly moving production to Canada in the (late?)90's IIRC.

But Clays is Clays no matter what the lable reads where it was mfg'd. It is always 'packaged in the USA IIRC as are the other two.

International Clays powder became simply 'International' powder
Universal Clays became simply 'Universal' powder.


IMR and ReLoader powder ID Numbers have caused some misreading and selection by reloaders.
But the Clays name branding on the International & Universal brands as well as the plain Clays powder made an Accurate selection very difficult.
Oh, there's another one..

My can of UNIVERSAL has the green band underneath the name, and Clays is printed on it.
When I bought the powder, I was confused, so I called Hodgdon, and was told that UNIVERSAL and UNIVERSAL Clays were the same powder. Apparently then, there is only one formulation of UNIVERSAL, and just the label has changed.
My UNIVERSAL passes the sniff test...no acrid odor, and the grains are a dark redish color, so all seems to be in order there.

I used Universal(Clays) in the 28 ga once or twice when I didn't have Unique. It worked just fine. I have a whole 8 pound jug of Universal but plenty of Unique. I also have a partial can of International(Clays) that I have no use for...It never fit anything well that I was shooting. Have lots of Clays which is a good 12 ga powder...but don't shoot or load 12 ga. and I use 231 for light revolver. I also have some partial kegs of other Hercules/Alliant powders that were hyped and never found them better than R&G Dots...and the other ones they made. Unique Herco and 2400. Blue dot was pretty good too.

A quick visit to the Hodgdons reloading site (38 Special, 110gr XTP for example) can show the different data for CLAYS & Universal.

CLAYS is a FAST POWDER, much like Bullseye, Universal a MEDIUM POWDER, more like Unique. I have had good results with all four.

Cheers!

__________________
Sit Reloader Sentiret

International clays is a fantastic pistol powder. International clays ran into trouble when it was used with "lite" for the caliber bullets. So hodgdon pulled all the data.

A link to the hodgdon 4th edition cowboy action reloading manual.
https://www.*************a?!&&p=34e37...dGEucGRm&ntb=1

As you can see the international clays load doesn't start until the 38spl/158gr reload data.

2 of my favorite loads for the 38spl:
3.3gr of bullseye and a 158gr cast 640 series fn hp (top group)
3.5gr of international clays and the same 158gr fn hp (bottom group)



I've burned 16+ #'s of internation clays over the decades in the 38spl's/44sp's & 44mags.

You are correct.
I blew up a Charter Arms Bulldog a couple of years ago by using a new bottle of their powder that I thought was the same as my old stock I had been using for years. I am one of the most careful reloaders you would ever meet.
Did an internet query on the subject and got all kinds of hits showing how mad lots of people were about the tricky labeling.
One guy said it was the stupidest thing Hodgdon’s marketing people had ever done. I agree.

Thanks for that information. I've often wondered about some powders that have no data. That's one of them. Hodgdon's site lists zero handgun loads for it.

A buddy just picked up a pound of Unique @ $54

__________________
213th FBINA

Since the obumma days, UNIVERSAL has been my go to handgun powder. Couldn't find any Unique so I tried a pound of Universal. Liked it so I bought 2 more pounds. Found out just how "universal" it is so I bought an 8 lb. jug. I have used it in 32 ACP up to 45 Colt. Never had any sooting but I normally find a load about mid way between start and max. New to me calibers usually start with Universal loads w/factory data...

I you failed to obturate the chamber with the brass, you have head room on powder charge. Just work up carefully.

I like loading Universal, it works great in my 686 357 mag 6” barrel.
A 6.0 gr charge averaged 1146 fps (3 ten shot strings averaged) with a commercially cast 158 gr SWC bullet CCI 550 mag primer in Starline brass.
Next time I will try a 5.7gr or 5.8 gr to get the MV down to 1000fps.

That seems to be the reality, if/when Unique can be found!