Why does one 9mm bullet plunk and the other sticks

Well, I'm nuts.....

mtgianni said:
Most people say we are nuts to load 9mm as you can buy it for yada yada yada. They say we must be crazy to mess with cast also. So given that we fall in the small percentages of those who reload 9mm with cast go the next step. ........
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With the powder (about $22-30/Lb max) and primers (5¢ ea) that I bought years ago I can load 9mm about 5¢/rnd cheaper than I can buy it. But I can make .38 or .357 rounds for about a penny more. .223 ammo is cheap, too. I can make those for 35¢/rnd or buy it for 65¢/rnd. I can make 30-06 for about 50¢/round where you can buy it for $1.35/rnd.

Do I buy some 9mm and .223 when they're so 'cheap'....SURE! But I don't have to and when everything gets scarce or the price goes up, it won't bother me a bit.

And cast bullets? The Missouri's cost 11 or 12¢ each. I don't mind using some X-Treme plated that are about 8¢ ea if I don't push them too hard. That's ECONOMY! I retired on disability over 20 years ago. Economy is VERY IMPORTANT to me.:D

So if I had all kinds of money, I wouldn't have to reload at all. But I'd sure miss the fun.:)
 
rwsmith said:
With the powder (about $22-30/Lb max) and primers (5¢ ea) that I bought years ago I can load 9mm about 5¢/rnd cheaper than I can buy it. But I can make .38 or .357 rounds for about a penny more. .223 ammo is cheap, too. I can make those for 35¢/rnd or buy it for 65¢/rnd. I can make 30-06 for about 50¢/round where you can buy it for $1.35/rnd.

Do I buy some 9mm and .223 when they're so 'cheap'....SURE! But I don't have to and when everything gets scarce or the price goes up, it won't bother me a bit.

And cast bullets? The Missouri's cost 11 or 12¢ each. I don't mind using some X-Treme plated that are about 8¢ ea if I don't push them too hard. That's ECONOMY! I retired on disability over 20 years ago. Economy is VERY IMPORTANT to me.:D

So if I had all kinds of money, I wouldn't have to reload at all. But I'd sure miss the fun.:)
Click to expand...

After decades of going through various "shortages", already have my preferred/tested/very accurate components for 9mm. And at my age, likely a lifetime supply. And it is with jacketed bullets in 9mm.

So any cost comparison is my time vs cost/availability of any available new components. And have been retired for years,

The older i get, the closer to a lifetime supply i have.
 
I try to replicate the original bullet style and weight if I can. SWC seems to be an odd bullet style to use in an auto loader. That's mostly because the way the ammo has to enter the chamber along a barrel ramp. If you don't get the OAL just right it could cause feeding problems.

I never had any problems loading until I started loading for autos. So to keep things as simple as possible I tried to replicate the original ammo specs. That would be using jacketed RN bullets. Once I got that to work I moved to coated bullets. Lead isn't nearly as uniform as jacketed bullets as was mentioned above so they size differently. I know this because some plunk and some don't. I use range brass also which causes issues. The best I can do is seat and crimp in two different operations. If the crimp die is set correctly I don't worry about a plunk test even though the ammo diameter isn't uniform. I just shoot it and it works.

I no longer use lead for 9mm. I buy Zero FMJ for about $150/1000. I know lead is cheaper but it's also more complicated to load.
 
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I load approximately 800 rounds of 9mm per month for our matches. All are loaded in a variety of unknown range brass cases using 115g copper plated or jacketed bullets. Here are some of my findings:

Using nothing but range brass some cases will exhibit a slight bell at the base and sometimes cannot be easily seen. This can be a large issue with CZ type guns as their chambers are very tight unlike others. Since we go thru many rounds my solution was to purchase a rollsizer machine. That took care of that problem as they all chamber in everything every time. It was not cheap but again I'm faced with volume production too.

Coated bullets can be an issue sometimes too and jam in the barrel to tight, again especially with CZ pistols. You go to clear the chamber and the bullet is left behind or it all pulls apart on clearing. Note they are swaged properly, it can be that tight. I switched back to copper plated or jacketed and that issue was resolved.

OAL is yet another issue, once again especially with CZ pistols. They like a round to have an OAL around 1.09 give or take after checking the throat chamber. Solution was to load all rounds at 1.09-1.10 max.

Small flash holes can also be an issue when resizing/decap. Either the primer does not come out at the resize/decap station or you break the decap pin. Norma brass is notorious for this! Solution was to replace the resize/decap die on my S1050 with a Lee die so I could use a Squirrel Daddy decap pin.

We (wife and I) shoot handgun (CZ/1911) and PCC for our matches so yes I need to load a lot of rounds lol. I don't have time for jams in the machine or a gun in the middle of a match. PCC and 1911 type 9mm guns are much more forgiving than the CZ products. So I try and load one round that will function smoothly in all 9mm guns. I buy range brass by the 5 gallon bucket without regard of head stamps. The most defining changes I made were roll sizing, copper, and OAL.
 

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Ok so now they plunk? Did you back off on the max oal a little? Lets hope they feed and run your pistol. Not sure how much bullet is in the case but watch for over pressure signs, 9mm has a very small case and pressure changes fast with bullet seating.
Good luck, glad you got it figured out. Now have fun and be safe.
 
I don't recall ever doing a "plunk" test with the 9mm cartridge, one I've loaded for more than thirty-five years. I've used my own cast bullets almost exclusively during that time. I get 100% reliable feeding, chambering, and extraction and accuracy is at least somewhat better than factory jacketed bullet loads I've tried. My cartridges are within specs.

However, I did find my handloads would not function in a friends H&K (don't know the model) because I was using a near max OAL that worked fine in my three 9mm pistols. Same for another friend's Glock, but this was when Glock only had one or two versions on the market, 1980s.

I've tried many, many different bullet designs and weights. The bullet I've settled on is an obsolete Lyman .38 Special round nose design, #358212. Weight is about 150 grains. I'm sure that with the many custom mould makers we have today, a copy or something similar is available to casters.

I seldom shoot 9mm anymore as I've lost interest in the cartridge, much preferring the .45 ACP, but for those with an interest in 9mm, jacketed, plated, painted, and coated bullets really offer nothing over a conventionally lubed and sized cast bullet of the proper diameter and the right alloy for the load; same as for all other handgun chamberings.

I've tried mixed brass without problems, but it will likely never shoot better than brass from the same batch or at least brass with the same headstamp. Range pickups are not the best way to go. You potentially put yourself at a disadvantage from the start.
 
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While the plunk test works, and you've already got the "gauge", you might think about investing in an actual cartridge gauge. It wouldn't have picked up the problem you had, but it might tip you off to others. It'll show you if your product meets SAAMI specs. I broke down a long time ago and bought one when a friends gun repeatedly choked on stuff that ran through mine.

One of the things I learned was that if the round doesn't go all the way in it may be hanging up on the case rim. Due to the case variations I mentioned earlier, this generally isn't an issue so long as at least 1/2 the rim goes in. Sometimes more is OK, but that depends upon your pistol.
 
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I've got Wilson case gauges...

WR Moore said:
While the plunk test works, and you've already got the "gauge", you might think about investing in an actual cartridge gauge. It wouldn't have picked up the problem you had, but it might tip you off to others. It'll show you if your product meets SAAMI specs. I broke down a long time ago and bought one when a friends gun repeatedly choked on stuff that ran through mine.

One of the things I learned was that if the round doesn't go all the way in it may be hanging up on the case rim. Due to the case variations I mentioned earlier, this generally isn't an issue so long as at least 1/2 the rim goes in. Sometimes more is OK, but that depends upon your pistol.
Click to expand...

But it turns out that they aren't good for chambering, but I might try them for it now that I know what a 'good' round is.
 
The reason I like SWCs...

LostintheOzone said:
I try to replicate the original bullet style and weight if I can. SWC seems to be an odd bullet style to use in an auto loader. That's mostly because the way the ammo has to enter the chamber along a barrel ramp. If you don't get the OAL just right it could cause feeding problems.

I never had any problems loading until I started loading for autos. So to keep things as simple as possible I tried to replicate the original ammo specs. That would be using jacketed RN bullets. Once I got that to work I moved to coated bullets. Lead isn't nearly as uniform as jacketed bullets as was mentioned above so they size differently. I know this because some plunk and some don't. I use range brass also which causes issues. The best I can do is seat and crimp in two different operations. If the crimp die is set correctly I don't worry about a plunk test even though the ammo diameter isn't uniform. I just shoot it and it works.

I no longer use lead for 9mm. I buy Zero FMJ for about $150/1000. I know lead is cheaper but it's also more complicated to load.
Click to expand...

All I use them for are targets and some plinking. I still get a nice clean hole with SWCs. Of course full WCs are out of the picture. They ffed and reject reliably (as long as they are properlly put together and I think I have that licked)
 
I SUGGEST GETTING A CASE GAGE. I PREFER A SHOCK BOTTLE GAGE. IT HOLDS 100RDS AT A TIME. IF THEY FIT IN THAT GAGE THEY HAVE FIT INTO EVERY MATCH 9MM I'VE TRIED. INCLUDING EXTREMELY TIGHT MATCH 9MM CHAMBERS BY THE FOLLOWING BUILDERS. ROCK RIVER ARMS, ACCURACY-X, DAVIS SAMS, ALAN TANAKA, CLARK & TONY KIDD. BARRELS WERE KART, NOWLIN, KKM, CLARK, RRA, BAR-STO.

THAT BEING SAID , I AGREE WITH SEVERAL OTHER POSTS. YOUR CRIMP APPEARS TO BE LACKING.
JP
 
Man is that CLASSY MO-chine!

Mike0251 said:
I load approximately 800 rounds of 9mm per month for our matches. All are loaded in a variety of unknown range brass cases using 115g copper plated or jacketed bullets. Here are some of my findings:

Using nothing but range brass some cases will exhibit a slight bell at the base and sometimes cannot be easily seen. This can be a large issue with CZ type guns as their chambers are very tight unlike others. Since we go thru many rounds my solution was to purchase a rollsizer machine. That took care of that problem as they all chamber in everything every time. It was not cheap but again I'm faced with volume production too.

Coated bullets can be an issue sometimes too and jam in the barrel to tight, again especially with CZ pistols. You go to clear the chamber and the bullet is left behind or it all pulls apart on clearing. Note they are swaged properly, it can be that tight. I switched back to copper plated or jacketed and that issue was resolved.

OAL is yet another issue, once again especially with CZ pistols. They like a round to have an OAL around 1.09 give or take after checking the throat chamber. Solution was to load all rounds at 1.09-1.10 max.

Small flash holes can also be an issue when resizing/decap. Either the primer does not come out at the resize/decap station or you break the decap pin. Norma brass is notorious for this! Solution was to replace the resize/decap die on my S1050 with a Lee die so I could use a Squirrel Daddy decap pin.

We (wife and I) shoot handgun (CZ/1911) and PCC for our matches so yes I need to load a lot of rounds lol. I don't have time for jams in the machine or a gun in the middle of a match. PCC and 1911 type 9mm guns are much more forgiving than the CZ products. So I try and load one round that will function smoothly in all 9mm guns. I buy range brass by the 5 gallon bucket without regard of head stamps. The most defining changes I made were roll sizing, copper, and OAL.
Click to expand...

That is doing it RIGHT! And, yes, I see your point about not having room for chambering errors being in serious competition like that.

I don't have any CZs (wish I did) but when I was really having a lot of trouble I had some rounds get stuck and be slightly out of battery so it wouldn't fire. I developed a technique where I could rap the action open safely so I didn't have to stop and get the gun cleared, but sometimes it would pull the bullet!

And I see that I will have to do some minor brass sorting.

Also, I may use more X-treme bullets for light/medium loads as long as they are economical, but I don't think I'm going to have to now that this is settled.
 
No problemo...

youngolddude said:
I incorrectly read your OAL to mean the overall "cartridge" length and not your various case lengths. My bad. Loading shorter will work and your crimp measurement looks ok. Apologies.
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Gotcha. And this has been a very high value discussion. You know people have been telling me to 'load them shorter' for a long time, and I did, but apparently not short enough.
 
Why to do some case sorting....

Take a look at these two rounds. They have been through the seating die to the proper OAL. They are labeled '9mm Luger', the headstamps are 'WIN' and 'F C'. Like I said, some appear to be .380 ACP cases.
 

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Although it involves an additional stage, I seat the bullet to an accurate OAL without crimping (the seating die is backed off), then crimp the case with a third die. It's nearly essential for roll crimps, but I do it for taper crimps as well.

Seating and crimping in the same die puts a lot of pressure on the case, which can cause it to bulge, and may shave a cast bullet. Separating the stages has dropped my reject rate to nearly zero.

It's no big deal using a four stage progressive press, but I do it on a single stage press too. I also trim the cases at least once, for once-fired pistol cases, to resolve any batch inconsistencies. (There's not enough pressure to extrude the brass.)
 
rwsmith said:
Take a look at these two rounds. They have been through the seating die to the proper OAL. They are labeled '9mm Luger', the headstamps are 'WIN' and 'F C'. Like I said, some appear to be .380 ACP cases.
Click to expand...

are you sure they dont say "9mm Br"
that's another name for 380
 
rwsmith said:
Gotcha. And this has been a very high value discussion. You know people have been telling me to 'load them shorter' for a long time, and I did, but apparently not short enough.
Click to expand...

Been through this with a few pistols.
Now I get to revisit it in 350 legend
It could be described as a 9mm version of a 357 maximum.
While I started out with a published minimum load, I got bulged case heads out of it and a few other auto cartridge issues.
I suspect the published data is a little dodgy. I cut the charge by 3 grains for the next test string and ran the cast 147 grain in a little deeper to keep it off the rifling. I'm seating with a 357 die and crimping with a lee 350 legend die in a progressive press.
the test string feeds from the mag well and does not feel sticky on extraction. Next range trip will tell if I have a handle on this animal.
Meanwhile, my 9mm mixed brass load has been more than acceptable through my 9mm PCC AR build.
When one thinks about the rats nest involved with that, where both the rifle and ammo demand tuning. the fact that I got the planets to align should serve as proof to others that it can be tamed, if not, mastered.
 
Actually....

PPCSHOOTER said:
I SUGGEST GETTING A CASE GAGE. I PREFER A SHOCK BOTTLE GAGE. IT HOLDS 100RDS AT A TIME. IF THEY FIT IN THAT GAGE THEY HAVE FIT INTO EVERY MATCH 9MM I'VE TRIED. INCLUDING EXTREMELY TIGHT MATCH 9MM CHAMBERS BY THE FOLLOWING BUILDERS. ROCK RIVER ARMS, ACCURACY-X, DAVIS SAMS, ALAN TANAKA, CLARK & TONY KIDD. BARRELS WERE KART, NOWLIN, KKM, CLARK, RRA, BAR-STO.

THAT BEING SAID , I AGREE WITH SEVERAL OTHER POSTS. YOUR CRIMP APPEARS TO BE LACKING.
JP
Click to expand...

....the crimp is about as good as it gets.


I'll look into the gauge if this round of fixes doen't bear fruit. But like I said, I THINK I've got it.
 
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