Well then, there is certainly plenty of good information in this thread! Don't forget the range report.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Exactly. Great info.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

While I appreciate the effort you put into this I have to question some of your loads. In particular that load of VV N340.

According to my 2012 VV manual the maximum charge for a 357 Magnum with this powder combined with an Intercast 160 grain bullet is 7.4 grains. So your particular load probably falls somewhere between +P and 357 Magnum in terms of pressure produced. I suspect that some of your other loads may fall into this same area. As a result you may want to consider adding a notation to your original post that these particular loads should be used only in revolvers rated for the 357 Magnum.

I've been looking into handloading for a while now. I think this would be the perfect place to start. Might as well practice with what I carry, right? Thanks for all the great info.

A quick question for any of y'all that know about pressures and such:
I recently bought a M10-5 for use as my EDC. It is before the time of +P (76-77). I don't know a lot about how the .38 special changed over time. Just to play it safe I bought BB 20C for defense. My question is can I shoot +P out of my model 10, even though it isn't marked for it? If I can't, can I use less powder to bring the FBI [hand]load down to standard pressures?

Any info would be great. Thanks guys.
Franz

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an actual conservative

Noticed that the BB load was said to have just 7.5 grs of powder in the load.

On 5/23/2013 I pulled the trigger three times on my M49
snub nose with a 158gr Lswc and did not fire the last two....
the chrony read out 912, 944 and 970 fps. Recoil was Heavy.
The load had a heavy crimp and standard cci 500 primers.
This load was the maximum load of 7.5grs BLUE Dot, per Alliant data.

With a very heavy crimp it may reach the 1,000 + fps........
but not in my J frame revolver!!

My final test with BD will try for 830 fps and be hopefully under the 18,000 cup pressures for the little J frame.

Hi. I am a new member to this forum, but have been reading it for years. I am 65 years old and have been reloading since 1975.

Back in 2009, member Hoptob started this thread with an excellent post about duplicating the Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP-GC +P load (BB #20A). He duplicated the load with 4 different powders and I have been using his 8.0gr HS-6 load to duplicate the BB load and have been very happy with it.

In that posting he said that BB was using 7.5 gr of a flake powder in its factory loading.

The four powders he used are as follows:

Powder...........Hodgdon Burn Rate Number..............Charge Needed to Duplicate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N340..............37.................................................6.7 gr
SR4756...........39.................................................7.0 gr
HS-6...............42.................................................8.0 gr
Longshot.........53..................................................7.0 gr

As we know, burn rate charts are approximate for reloading purposes and powders can change their relative position on the chart depending upon what cartridge case they are used in and what bullet weight they are used behind. This appears to be the case with Longshot; it changes it position from #53 to #39/#40 when used in a 38 Special case behind the Rim Rock 158 gr LSWCHP-GC bullet.

Fast forward to 2014 and I am out of HS-6. Can’t find any anywhere - OK, OK … a guy on GunBroker has 2 lbs of it for $100.00 a lb (plus additional HazMat + additional shipping !!). All that means is he is letting everyone know he has some, but it isn’t really for sale.

Anyway, a week ago, I go to our local gun show, with my list of the 4 powders. Can’t find any of them there; however, I do find a powder called CFE Pistol. It is #44 on Hodgdon’s burn rate chart. That is in the Burn Rate range I am looking for, so I decide to give it a try and buy 1 lb.

Here are my results:

Powder: CFE Pistol
Powder Charge: 7.5 gr (note1: same as BB) (note2: yes, I worked up to this charge)
Cases: Once fired Nickeled 38 Special with headstamp “Winchester 38 SPL+P”
Primers: WSP
Bullet: Rim Rock 158 LSWCHP-GC (same bullet BB and Hoptob use)
Crimp: VERY firm roll crimp
Ransom Rest
Number of shots per group and distance: 6/25 yards
Chrono: Shooting Chrony
Number of shots per velocity group and distance: 6/6 feet
Firearm #1: S&W 64-4 2” Barrel
Firearm #2: S&W 66-4 4” barrel
Temperature: 73 degrees F
Conditions: Sunny with very little wind

Firearm: 64-4
------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1041 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 26.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 5.7 inches

CFE-P Avg Vel: 1044 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 25.0 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 5.5 inches


Firearm: 66-4
-------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1128 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 11.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 3.0 inches

CFE-P Avg Vel: 1138 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 11.2 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 3.1 inches

It appears that for my revolvers and my cases, my primers and my lot of CFE Pistol powder, that 7.5 grains of CFE Pistol duplicates the 7.5 grain load that Buffalo Bore uses. While CFE Pistol is a ball powder and Hoptob reports that Buffalo Bore uses a flake powder, it takes equal charge weights of each powder to produce the same exterior ballistic results. I would think that also means that both powders are producing very nearly the same internal ballistic pressures as well.

It also appears that, with this load, my 64-4 should be used at targets less than 25 yards away.

I recently used the CFE Pistol in some 9mm Luger loads. I really like it. I think 5.0 grains over a Berry's 124 GR FP bullet is my new favorite plinking/practice load. I was using 4.0 grains of Bullseye, but I hate how that powder sticks to the hopper, scale pan, and funnel with static cling. The CFE Pistol is a dream to work with.

Mike

If it's got a model number and it's steel, you are good to go. The mod 10 handles +P easily. Darn good gun. The +P standard was introduced in 1972 but ANY S&W that has a model number and is steel is ok with +P.

As far as loading your own the BEST place to start is with a good manual and stick to the published loads. There is a LOT to know rather than just how much powder goes with what bullet. There are threads here where this is covered a lot. If you can't find it yourself, ask.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I hate to just repeat what everybody else is saying but this is a first rate piece of work. THANKS!

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Hi Drummer, Welcome to the forum! Interesting post.

Where are you seeing a chart that changes a powders relative burn rate in different cases? I've only seen the standard ones supplied by the powder companies.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Hi Bluedot37, thanks for the welcome.

You are correct. There are only the standard published burn rate charts, based on a standard sized "vessel". To test, compile and publish them for all the various cartridge case and bullet combinations would be impossible. However, it is a fact that powders can change their relative burn rate order based upon the cartridge case they are used in and the bullet behind which they are used. This is sometimes explained in the verbiage that accompanies standard charts.

As a matter of fact, Dick Lee (founder of Lee Precision) reported that INCREASING the charge weight of powder in the same powder/case/bullet combination to a point where the powder becomes compressed (by seating the bullet deeper), can actually LOWER the pressure (compared to lighter weight charges), in effect making the powder change its burn rate to a higher (slower) number. He demonstrated this using IMR3031 and 110 gr bullets in the 30-06. You can read about this on pages 100 and 101 in "Modern Reloading by Richard Lee". My copy was printed in 2001.

So, bottom line, burn rate charts are approximations and powders can change their relative positions based upon various factors.

drummer007 said:
"While CFE Pistol is a ball powder...."

For what it's worth, I recall having looked at my CFE Pistol powder closely and it looked like flakes. Very small flakes.
George

Great info. I have used the loads from the early Speer manuals with no problems.

Has anyone here tested the BB type loads on the gel or on varmints? Any reports on self defense use?

.38 spl gel test: Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP +P - YouTube

60 to 70 caliber expansion

drummer007: Thanks for the photo. Impressive.

Some ball powders are semi-flattened just before final drying.

Titegroup is another example that appears to be flake but isn't.

Flake is made by an entirely different process.

Has anyone tried replicating the load using BE86?

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The American dream is alive

How high is the pressure with 7.5 gr of CFE Pistol?

What about using 2400 for duplicating the BB load?

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Wow - another old thread resurrected!

I have been a huge BB fan for years and it ( BB #20A) is my EDC load in my 2" M60-7. I know many Reloaders that have tried to duplicate it and as of yet none have been successful doing so and staying within the SAAMI limits. I suppose that even if one comes within 75 or 100 fps of the BB loads and stays within Spec's it would be a viable practice load for the BB carry ammo.

I have a feeling (a strong feeling) a charge of 7.5gr CFE-Pistol is well over the 20,000 PSI SAAMI limits for a .38 Special +P loaded with a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet.

That's fine if you"re shooting that round in a .357 Magnum but it's not a .38 Special +P and it's not a FBI Replica load.

__________________
Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Ummm nope. 4.6 is a max load (158 lead), you are nearing a double charge.

5.4 is max for a 130.

David

That's exactly what I was talking about in Post #71. You see it too...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

5.4 grains of CFE Pistol is max for a 158 grain Hornady XTP in .38 Special +P, according to the Hodgdon website.
For lead, it would be higher.

5.0 grains with a MEI 158 grain cast SWC yields 1029 fps at 16,700 psi.

I'm still not sure 7.5 would be withing +P pressures.
I don't think it would be a problem in a K frame, but wouldn't want to light one off in my J frame.
It would probably be a great load for my 66.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

5.4 listed as max. 7.5 is more than a 30% increase.

Does anybody have quickload?
I can find it if needed.

David

CFE Pistol's not in QL.

Regarding Buffalo Bore's enhanced "FBI Load" and its handloaded emulation, what results do these achieve in terms of penetration-expansion - especially versus malefactor in winter clothing - compared with Remington's original +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP ammunition? I mention Remington's because it appears to have measurably higher muzzle velocity and softer swaged bullet than Winchester or Federal's version.

Buffalo Bore's advertising blurb mentions violent expansion with about 14 inches of penetration in gelatin without mentioning any thick clothing fronting the gelatin. If bullets of these enhanced +P ammunitions are essentially the same hardness as Remingtons, would increasing close range velocity by several hundred feet per second result in devasting but shallow would channels in that circumstance?

To venture into a less frequent circumstance, placing a barrier between target human being and bullet - a sofa or typically cheap room-to-room door, for example, does the velocity increase retard lethal penetration that your target is less likely to cease his activity when compared with slower original FBI Load?

Let's not loose sight of what the OP's entire premise is here. He is suggesting different powders to use for TRAINING LOADS. If the loads he posted are SLIGHTLY backed off from I suspect pressures would rapidly drop and cheaper TRAINING loads would be very viable. Even if you only achieve around 950 fps (a 90 fps drop) I would still feel these are very viable TRAINING loads while using safer pressures. Carry the BB's for SD, practice with hand-loads and I doubt there would be a game changing perceptible difference for these purposes. YMMV!

Since the weather in Ohio is still too ****** to shoot outside much, it is brass processing and load work-up time.

I now use 135 Gold Dots in my 38 Spl. defense loads for a variety of reasons.

That said, I have used the FBI load a lot, including Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore. C-B and BB both have very stout recoil when fired out of a light weight J-frame. More than I like, and more than my wife can handle. This is part of the reason for changing to 135 GD's.

I am doing more load development for .38 Special and am using BE-86 and CFE pistol, among others. Thought I would try those powders with 158 LSWCHP's just for old times sake.

While researching these loads, I reread this thread very closely. After rereading, and since I am going to be testing CFE Pistol, I did a linear regression analysis for CFE and 158 XTP's from Hodgdon's current manual. Here is what I found:

CFE Pistol, 158 XTP, 7.7" barrel:

4.6 gr., 816 FPS, 13,600 PSI Tabulated
5.0 gr., 914 FPS, 16,200 PSI Tabulated
5.4 gr., 986 FPS, 18,500 PSI Tabulated (+P)

5.6 gr., 1034 FPS, 20,000 PSI Extrapolated (+P)

7.5 gr., 1440 FPS, 31,400 PSI Extrapolated (.357 Mag. level)

Please note that these results are with a 7.7" test barrel and jacketed bullets. YMMV.

I am a P.E., mechanical engineer, and have been reloading since 1978.

As an aside, Dr. Fackler's research on the FBI load in the late 1980's seems to indicate that the optimum combination of penetration (12" - 18") and expansion (0.5" - 0.6") for both bare and clothed gelatin occurs with a muzzle velocity of about 875 - 900 FPS. I am shooting for (bad pun intended) about 875 FPS from my 2" J-frames and will take what I get in everything else.

S/F,

RAS, P.E. (aka Walter)

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A man's got to know his limita

Great thread here. I will have to come back to peruse.

hoptob,

Will all due respect, sir, why waste valuable shooting time trying to duplicate a factory load? I have at least 2 boxes of W-W factory FBI loads that have to be 30 years old. I have no reason to buy more. They'll last me the rest of my life.

BTW, I've yet to come across any .38 Special or .357 Mag load that I think surpasses the FBI load for bipedal self-defense. And I will add that the FBI load is not a whole lot of fun when fired out of a 2" Model 60. I couldn't imagine firing a .357 Mag load out of a "J" Frame.

There's a huge difference between the fbi load and the buffalo bore fbi load.

The main difference is the hollow based hollow pointed bullet in the fbi load.



That bullet can be duplicated with one of these hollow based molds from lyman.



The the load hollow based bullet will need to be hollow pointed using a forster hollow point tool.

The buffalo bore fbi load uses a 158gr lead swc hp that is gas checked. 20 rounds for $29

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

In 2012 Brian Pearce did an article on testing different 38spl p+ loads in a 1.875" bbl'd ruger lcr snub nosed revolver. He duplicated the Buffalo bore load using:
6.3gr of power pistol powder
158gr rimrock lead swc hp
standard primer

The buffalo bore load gave pearce 999fps in that lcr.
The pp load gave pearce 1004fps

g/ch .38/.357 mag 158 gr. SWC-HP per 100/ in a plastic ammo box - Gas Checked Cast Lead Bullets - Top Shelf Bullets

I've done allot of testing with power pistol in low pressure cartridges like the 38spl/44psl/45acp. The results have been extremely impressive.

That was in the Handloader #276 issue.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Yes, issue #276.

Not to answer for my friend but I am also involved with this ongoing project. There are many reasons to replicate factory or designer loads. Let's start with price, BBs FBI Load costs $28.79 + shipping for 20 rounds. Handloading costs using the same RimRock bullet, $8.65 for 50 rounds.

Next comes the fun, reloaders like to experiment and it's satisfying when you succeed.

IMO, because of the cost it's difficult to practice with your carry ammo and practice is important. If you can develop a replica load for your carry ammo you can practice without breaking the bank and save the store bought ammo for carry.

There is more but those are the three that I think if first.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

With all due respect, why are you addressing someone that posted a thread in 2009 and has not posted since 2010?

See Archs post above.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I don't know what happened to Hoptob, he seems to have gone away. I for one was very impressed with the work he did on this project. Thanx Hoptob...........

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

This is an interesting read. Thank you for digging this back up.

All good points.

I tend to practice w/ light load, 158 LSWC's, as they are accurate - & very cost effective. I could be off base, but my thought is, that reflexes (ingrained through light load training) will take over w/ SD loads - should the need ever arise.

That said, I've been considering placing an order for 300 - 500 Rimrock LSWC-HP/GC's - just because. A bit of full power load training couldn't hurt, right?

My EDC revolvers (M340, M640-1, & M65-3) are all .357 chambered, & while I know that a lot of guys load primarily .38spl brass for training, I prefer magnum brass.

Understand that the subject matter here is duplicating the .38spl FBI load, been wondering if anyone here has done any work in the 950 - 1050fps range, w/ this bullet - in magnum brass.

It also occurs, that "if" the soft / gas checked Rimrock bullet will stand up to moderate level, .357 magnum pressures - & maintain accuracy, it might make an "interesting" load, for use in 2.5" - 4" L / N frames, as well.

Thoughts?

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Regards - GCF

When I bought some of them they told me they rate them to a max. of 1150 fps.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Thanks for the info. Did you load them in SPL., or magnum brass?

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Regards - GCF

My carry ammo is also the FBI load (Fed, WW or Rem) but it is not always easy to find. As I do like to shoot off the ammo that actually been carried at least a couple times a year, two 50 round boxes might last me 2 years but never the rest of my life and I'm 62!

I enjoy reloading and and try to load 158 gr Cast LSWC as close to 850 fps in a 2" barrel as possible for practice and plinking. And with the powder shortage of the last few years this has been interesting.

Great thread!

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Support your Police, & NRA

I'm getting 830 fps average with 5.2 grains of unique with a 158 LSWCHP ( max +p load in Speer #14) I have never even seen a box of the Rem or Win FBI load! Is this reload I have close to there specs? I'm shooting a 442


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I molded some pure PB from my Lyman mold #358156.
They weighted in at 154 Gr +or- 1 gr.
This Boolit takes a GC.
Should I GC them when testing the load given by the OP?
If I HP them, they will loose some weight and a GC adds only 3 gr or so.
I'm going to first test a few with my S&W HD over my Croney.
Then my M 638 & M 49 or M 36-1.

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Both.

38 Spcl. @ 6.0gr/Power Pistol (+P) &

357 Mag @ 8.0gr/Power Pistol

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Played around last year doing load development for the FBI Load using this bullet:



Starting point was ArchAngelCD's 7.0gr of HS-6 load. Then found comparative loads using 6.4gr of AA#5 and 5.6gr of Unique. Hope to do further work with them this summer

Don

That's a nice looking bullet - not sure if I missed it from earlier, but care to share details on the bullet/mould/maker?

Thanks

That's a bullet I cast out of an MP Mold 359640 mold. Once sized and lubed, they weigh in at about 160 grains.

Don

Don, any idea how hard those bullets are? They sure perform well, that is some outstanding expansion!

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I just sent an email to the old address I had, maybe it's still good. I hope so, maybe he will come back and discuss this further. I always did enjoy talking to him, Jim and a few others back then. (His name is Mike, right?)

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Tony,

That's not my pic, so I don't know what alloy was used. Personally, I cast mine from an alloy consisting of about: 97% Pb, 2.75% Sn, and only 0.25% Sb. I'm guessing a BHN of about 7.

Don