For awhile now I’ve been impressed with Buffalo Bore awesome 158 gr. lead SWCHP 38 special load (#20A). Clocked at over 1040 fps from 2” bbl and 1160 fps (!) from 4” bbl, BB FBI load is without a doubt the most powerful 38 special load on the market today. Who says 38/44 is a thing of the past?

As a reloader I always wanted to replicate it. What does it take to get this type of ballistics in 38 special? Can it be done within +P limits? Tim Sundles who developed this load used to post on THR. People often asked him these questions. Tim provided some information but it only added to the mystery around his load. Over time Tim stated that:

1. BB #20A load is within SAAMI pressure limit
2. It is safe to fire it in any modern 38 special +P revolver in a good operating condition
3. He uses flash-suppressed non-canister powder which is not available in stores
4. To protect BB trade secrets he will provide no further information

A few months back a member of this forum, 336A, posted that Rimrock Bullets Co. sells 160 gr. soft lead SWCHP bullets used in BB load – link. Thanks, 336A! I bought some of them and can confirm that it is in fact the same bullet.

With the right bullet in hand, my BB FBI load duplication project was off to a good start. First things first – I broke one of the BB rounds. Inside the case I found 7.5 gr. of a flake powder. It looked somewhat similar to SR4756 but it wasn’t same. Below are close-up shots of the two powders taken at 11x magnification. You will see that BB flakes are smaller and thicker than SR4756.



Looking at these pictures someone may wonder if they were taken with an expensive lab microscope. Nothing of the kind, folks. I used my trusty 8 y.o. consumer digital SLR equipped with 20 y.o. 50 mm Nikon lens ($85 at the time) and a set of extension rings worth $60 NIB. It’s honest backyard science, folks, no cheating

Now, BB load is charged with 7.5 gr. of powder. We can assume that it must be one of the medium burn rate powders, not the likes of Bullseye or 2400. After studying recent and not so recent manual, I chose four powders to work with – HS-6, Longshot, SR4756 and VihtaVuori N340. All handloads were built as close as possible to BB load, except for less crimp. I did apply firm crimp but stopped short of making crimp line simply to extend service life of my brass. I found that bullets were held very securely without excessive crimp. It took over dozen good hits with Dillon bullet puller to break these rounds; normally I consider 5-6 hits to be good enough.


Buffalo Bore FBI load (left) and handload (right); Rimrock 160 gr. SWCHP. All handloads were made with Rimrock bullets,
S&B 38spl cases; OAL 1.46”; firm crimp. Primers: Rem 1-1/2 in N340, Longshot and SR4756 loads; Win SPM in HS6 loads.

BB load clocked 1044 fps in my 2-1/4” bbl SP101 – exactly as advertised. After several extended load-building and chronographing sessions, I found out what powder charge is needed to get same velocity in my handloads. Here it is:



Here you have it - four replicas of Buffalo Bore FBI load.

For those who want cheaper training load – I suggest that you try TVB 158 gr. SWC instead of Rimrock SWCHP. Rimrock makes wonderful soft hollow point bullet. It's close to perfect for self defense snubby loads but it is also rather expensive as far as training goes. I see no reason to punch holes in the paper with a $18.50/100 lead slugs. TVB bullets sell for almost 3 times less; in my tests they clocked at almost same velocity as Rimrock's and produced no leading at BB velocities. TVB bullets are available from a member of this forum Jessie aka NKJ Nut - Tennessee Valley Bullets.

Naturally, all of my BB replicas were well above published load recommendations for 38spl+P. FWIW, pressure calculations placed HS-6 and Longshot loads in 26,000-27,000 range; N340 and SR4756 were running a bit higher. Primers showed moderate deformation consistent with this range of pressures.



Does any of this mean that BB load has to be above +P pressure limit? Not at all. It is entirely possible that Tim Sundles’ secret flake powder allows him to reach 38/44 ballistics with 38spl+P pressures. The only way to find out would be to have his load tested by H.P. White or another reputable lab.



I have to say that I am not too concerned with the load pressure. My steel frame Colt Detective Special is quite happy with Buffalo Bore FBI load. And so am I.

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Very interesting report. Well thought out and executed. Thanks for sharing this info.

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Andy

Mike, thanks for the detailed report. I very much enjoyed it.

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Now go make God proud...

Mike,
I wonder if you need to take a look at SR7625. That powder is very close to what you have in the Buffalo Bore photo. I'll take a picture of some of mine when I get home!

Just a thought.

Mike;
Beautiful Report.
Thanks,
Roger.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

Thanks for all the hard work!
Great report! As well as pictures!

Mike, do you have any 2400 to compare next to the BB powder?

Also, if you are trying to experiment outside SAAMI specs, do you happen to have a copy of Lyman/Ideal Handbook #39? They have data for heavy framed .38 specials and moderate .357s that might be of use to you.

And please be careful.

Since this thread has come back I might as well chime in again. Like the above posts I've been wondering if Power Pistol (or a variant of) might be the powder used in the BB ammo.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

I doubt it, Tony: I've run max +P loads with Power Pistol in the .38, and I don't quite get the velocities that the BB stuff delivers. Get lots of flash, though!

So then... How well does a soft 158 gr. SWCHP actually penetrate at 1050 FPS? Is it really any better than a hard SWC? I have my doubts.

If I could find a 147 gr. cast HP bullet for the 9mm, I believe I can get 1100 FPS out of my 2" 940. And it's amazing how many people think 147 gr. bullets are a terrible choice in the 9mm.

Dave Sinko

Since this thread has been resurrected, I'm gonna reply to this 3-1/2 year old post.
I doubt a soft SWC-HP will penetrate as well as a hardcast SWC, at any velocity which expands it. The hard bullet being unexpanded is smaller & has greater sectional density and will therefore penetrate deeper at a given velocity.. But I would pick the expanding bullet IF the penetration is sufficient for the intended target. Self-defense against unarmored human beans (even wearing a leather jacket or similar) is different than shooting game animals which might have a gristle plate or other hardened features protecting their innards..
And I don't see the point in a cast hollowpoint bullet-- unless cast quite soft (which most people don't do), it won't expand so it might as well be a plain SWC . In which case a full wadctter will do more damage IMHO.

Lyman makes, or used to make, a 147 gr cast HP that only gets 1061 fps out of a 4" barrel, according to Lyman 49th edition. That's 368 ft lbs of energy from a 4" barrel.

OTOH, I have clocked 1100 fps out of a 2" barrel with .38 Specials using a 158 gr bullet for 425 ft lbs of energy.

How much that extra 58 ft pounds means on a target is unknown to me, but if I had my druthers, I'd druther have it.

Hoptob, have you thought about Ramshot's Silhouette? It's a duplicate of WAP, and the Ramshot load data lists (from a 7.75" barrel) a 158 gr SWC getting 1046fps over 5.6gr at 16,720psi. It's also flash suppressed. It's right below HS-6 on Ramshot's burn rate chart, too.

Great photo essay and test! Thank you!

A most interesting thread indeed. I am always on the lookout for warm .38 loads. However, I am also something of a cautious creature whenever I see really warm or speedy loads (yes, pressure worries me!). I am interested in trying some of these loads in some of my own revolvers (mostly k-frame .357s...but with a 686 and a Highway Patrolman thrown in for good measure). Has anyone else attempted to duplicate these loads in other guns...and with what results?

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Don't know, don't care.

Is Unique too old fashioned for that bullet?

Glad to see old thread coming back from oblivion.

I have not tried to duplicate BB load with other powders. It's unlikely that they use 2400 or Lil'gun just because there was only 7.5 gr. of a powder in the case. It would probably take a lot more of a slow powder to get to this kind of velocities. A member of this forum JFH has a lot of experience with Ramshot powders. I know that he likes them and I trust his opinion and experience. Unique is a possibility but I don't think two 5's wouldn't cut it. According to Alliant manual (link) 5.2 gr. Unique only gets you 919 fps from a 6-incher. I'd expect that it takes 6.5-7.0 gr. Unique to get 1000+ fps from a 2" bbl.

Thanks for nice comments I am working on and off on a new project "Speer 135 grain load on steroids". Will eventually finish it off and post the results.

Cheers,

Mike

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9x19, 9x29R, 9x33R, 10x22

Mike,
May I suggest using a 140gr Hornady XTP bullet for your load development. Those 135gr Gold Dots are very expensive compared to the Hornady bullets. When I was working on replicating the 135gr Short Barrel .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum rounds that's what I did. (I was very lucky to get 3 boxes of 100 for only $12/100) Even at retail prices they are still much cheaper.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Hoptob, I have already posted my appreciation of your fine research project, and post, but I will say again. GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

This thread is just too good to be relegated to the dust bin.

This is true!

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

It's baaaaa-aaaaaaaack!

Seriously, there's a ton of good info in this thread. Kudos to the contributors!

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I found the data interesting and appreciate the report. One thing I didn't see mentioned is if any of the loads produce a low flash. I'm not familiar with BB's FBI load but a friend of mine carries BB in his Model 10 snubby. He told me he selected BB ammo based on its low flash claim. I'm not sure of the specific type of BB ammo he uses and I'm not sure if is +P or FBI load.

Years ago my shooting bud discharged his Model 10 snubby on a coyote that wandered into his camp ground late at night. I don't recall the type of ammo he used but he claimed the muzzle flash nearly blinded him and his wife both for several seconds.

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Dave

I've heard remarks in forums to the effect that Accurate Arms powder has little flash.

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WWSSD?
What would Skeeter do?

Speaking of flash suppressed powder, has anyone tried BE-86?

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dd884
JMHO-YMMV

Has anyone GOT any?????

If anyone is interested, you can see the night time muzzle flash from the BB #20A out of a 2" snubbie, as well as some other photos I took of some ammo that Hoptob (Mike) sent me for testing with a camera.

More night muzzle flash pics - courtesy of Hoptob

I can promise all of you that none of these shots in the dark, and many others I have done while photographing them, caused any temporary night blindness whatsoever.

Yeah, I'm bumping this thread.
I'm getting into loading .38 and .357 and have been interested in duplicating the BB FBI load for some time now.
This zombie thread must remain active.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

I will be trying the FBI load next week when my Rim Rock 158 SWC-HP bullets arrive.I read where Power Pistol works well with this bullet at the 6.0-6.3 gr. level.
These will be shot thru my Model 66 no dash 4 inch revolver and Ruger LCR .357. Will be using .38 Special brass since I have a bunch of it.

Well then, there is certainly plenty of good information in this thread! Don't forget the range report.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

Exactly. Great info.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

While I appreciate the effort you put into this I have to question some of your loads. In particular that load of VV N340.

According to my 2012 VV manual the maximum charge for a 357 Magnum with this powder combined with an Intercast 160 grain bullet is 7.4 grains. So your particular load probably falls somewhere between +P and 357 Magnum in terms of pressure produced. I suspect that some of your other loads may fall into this same area. As a result you may want to consider adding a notation to your original post that these particular loads should be used only in revolvers rated for the 357 Magnum.

I've been looking into handloading for a while now. I think this would be the perfect place to start. Might as well practice with what I carry, right? Thanks for all the great info.

A quick question for any of y'all that know about pressures and such:
I recently bought a M10-5 for use as my EDC. It is before the time of +P (76-77). I don't know a lot about how the .38 special changed over time. Just to play it safe I bought BB 20C for defense. My question is can I shoot +P out of my model 10, even though it isn't marked for it? If I can't, can I use less powder to bring the FBI [hand]load down to standard pressures?

Any info would be great. Thanks guys.
Franz

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an actual conservative

Noticed that the BB load was said to have just 7.5 grs of powder in the load.

On 5/23/2013 I pulled the trigger three times on my M49
snub nose with a 158gr Lswc and did not fire the last two....
the chrony read out 912, 944 and 970 fps. Recoil was Heavy.
The load had a heavy crimp and standard cci 500 primers.
This load was the maximum load of 7.5grs BLUE Dot, per Alliant data.

With a very heavy crimp it may reach the 1,000 + fps........
but not in my J frame revolver!!

My final test with BD will try for 830 fps and be hopefully under the 18,000 cup pressures for the little J frame.

Hi. I am a new member to this forum, but have been reading it for years. I am 65 years old and have been reloading since 1975.

Back in 2009, member Hoptob started this thread with an excellent post about duplicating the Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP-GC +P load (BB #20A). He duplicated the load with 4 different powders and I have been using his 8.0gr HS-6 load to duplicate the BB load and have been very happy with it.

In that posting he said that BB was using 7.5 gr of a flake powder in its factory loading.

The four powders he used are as follows:

Powder...........Hodgdon Burn Rate Number..............Charge Needed to Duplicate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N340..............37.................................................6.7 gr
SR4756...........39.................................................7.0 gr
HS-6...............42.................................................8.0 gr
Longshot.........53..................................................7.0 gr

As we know, burn rate charts are approximate for reloading purposes and powders can change their relative position on the chart depending upon what cartridge case they are used in and what bullet weight they are used behind. This appears to be the case with Longshot; it changes it position from #53 to #39/#40 when used in a 38 Special case behind the Rim Rock 158 gr LSWCHP-GC bullet.

Fast forward to 2014 and I am out of HS-6. Can’t find any anywhere - OK, OK … a guy on GunBroker has 2 lbs of it for $100.00 a lb (plus additional HazMat + additional shipping !!). All that means is he is letting everyone know he has some, but it isn’t really for sale.

Anyway, a week ago, I go to our local gun show, with my list of the 4 powders. Can’t find any of them there; however, I do find a powder called CFE Pistol. It is #44 on Hodgdon’s burn rate chart. That is in the Burn Rate range I am looking for, so I decide to give it a try and buy 1 lb.

Here are my results:

Powder: CFE Pistol
Powder Charge: 7.5 gr (note1: same as BB) (note2: yes, I worked up to this charge)
Cases: Once fired Nickeled 38 Special with headstamp “Winchester 38 SPL+P”
Primers: WSP
Bullet: Rim Rock 158 LSWCHP-GC (same bullet BB and Hoptob use)
Crimp: VERY firm roll crimp
Ransom Rest
Number of shots per group and distance: 6/25 yards
Chrono: Shooting Chrony
Number of shots per velocity group and distance: 6/6 feet
Firearm #1: S&W 64-4 2” Barrel
Firearm #2: S&W 66-4 4” barrel
Temperature: 73 degrees F
Conditions: Sunny with very little wind

Firearm: 64-4
------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1041 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 26.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 5.7 inches

CFE-P Avg Vel: 1044 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 25.0 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 5.5 inches


Firearm: 66-4
-------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1128 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 11.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 3.0 inches

CFE-P Avg Vel: 1138 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 11.2 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 3.1 inches

It appears that for my revolvers and my cases, my primers and my lot of CFE Pistol powder, that 7.5 grains of CFE Pistol duplicates the 7.5 grain load that Buffalo Bore uses. While CFE Pistol is a ball powder and Hoptob reports that Buffalo Bore uses a flake powder, it takes equal charge weights of each powder to produce the same exterior ballistic results. I would think that also means that both powders are producing very nearly the same internal ballistic pressures as well.

It also appears that, with this load, my 64-4 should be used at targets less than 25 yards away.

Hi Drummer, Welcome to the forum! Interesting post.

Where are you seeing a chart that changes a powders relative burn rate in different cases? I've only seen the standard ones supplied by the powder companies.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

If it's got a model number and it's steel, you are good to go. The mod 10 handles +P easily. Darn good gun. The +P standard was introduced in 1972 but ANY S&W that has a model number and is steel is ok with +P.

As far as loading your own the BEST place to start is with a good manual and stick to the published loads. There is a LOT to know rather than just how much powder goes with what bullet. There are threads here where this is covered a lot. If you can't find it yourself, ask.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I hate to just repeat what everybody else is saying but this is a first rate piece of work. THANKS!

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I recently used the CFE Pistol in some 9mm Luger loads. I really like it. I think 5.0 grains over a Berry's 124 GR FP bullet is my new favorite plinking/practice load. I was using 4.0 grains of Bullseye, but I hate how that powder sticks to the hopper, scale pan, and funnel with static cling. The CFE Pistol is a dream to work with.

Mike

Has anyone tried replicating the load using BE86?

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The American dream is alive

How high is the pressure with 7.5 gr of CFE Pistol?

What about using 2400 for duplicating the BB load?

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Ummm nope. 4.6 is a max load (158 lead), you are nearing a double charge.

5.4 is max for a 130.

David

That's exactly what I was talking about in Post #71. You see it too...

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

5.4 grains of CFE Pistol is max for a 158 grain Hornady XTP in .38 Special +P, according to the Hodgdon website.
For lead, it would be higher.

5.0 grains with a MEI 158 grain cast SWC yields 1029 fps at 16,700 psi.

I'm still not sure 7.5 would be withing +P pressures.
I don't think it would be a problem in a K frame, but wouldn't want to light one off in my J frame.
It would probably be a great load for my 66.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Wow - another old thread resurrected!

I have been a huge BB fan for years and it ( BB #20A) is my EDC load in my 2" M60-7. I know many Reloaders that have tried to duplicate it and as of yet none have been successful doing so and staying within the SAAMI limits. I suppose that even if one comes within 75 or 100 fps of the BB loads and stays within Spec's it would be a viable practice load for the BB carry ammo.

I have a feeling (a strong feeling) a charge of 7.5gr CFE-Pistol is well over the 20,000 PSI SAAMI limits for a .38 Special +P loaded with a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet.

That's fine if you"re shooting that round in a .357 Magnum but it's not a .38 Special +P and it's not a FBI Replica load.

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Freedom is never free!!
SWCA #3437

5.4 listed as max. 7.5 is more than a 30% increase.

Does anybody have quickload?
I can find it if needed.

David

CFE Pistol's not in QL.

Regarding Buffalo Bore's enhanced "FBI Load" and its handloaded emulation, what results do these achieve in terms of penetration-expansion - especially versus malefactor in winter clothing - compared with Remington's original +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP ammunition? I mention Remington's because it appears to have measurably higher muzzle velocity and softer swaged bullet than Winchester or Federal's version.

Buffalo Bore's advertising blurb mentions violent expansion with about 14 inches of penetration in gelatin without mentioning any thick clothing fronting the gelatin. If bullets of these enhanced +P ammunitions are essentially the same hardness as Remingtons, would increasing close range velocity by several hundred feet per second result in devasting but shallow would channels in that circumstance?

To venture into a less frequent circumstance, placing a barrier between target human being and bullet - a sofa or typically cheap room-to-room door, for example, does the velocity increase retard lethal penetration that your target is less likely to cease his activity when compared with slower original FBI Load?

Let's not loose sight of what the OP's entire premise is here. He is suggesting different powders to use for TRAINING LOADS. If the loads he posted are SLIGHTLY backed off from I suspect pressures would rapidly drop and cheaper TRAINING loads would be very viable. Even if you only achieve around 950 fps (a 90 fps drop) I would still feel these are very viable TRAINING loads while using safer pressures. Carry the BB's for SD, practice with hand-loads and I doubt there would be a game changing perceptible difference for these purposes. YMMV!

Since the weather in Ohio is still too ****** to shoot outside much, it is brass processing and load work-up time.

I now use 135 Gold Dots in my 38 Spl. defense loads for a variety of reasons.

That said, I have used the FBI load a lot, including Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore. C-B and BB both have very stout recoil when fired out of a light weight J-frame. More than I like, and more than my wife can handle. This is part of the reason for changing to 135 GD's.

I am doing more load development for .38 Special and am using BE-86 and CFE pistol, among others. Thought I would try those powders with 158 LSWCHP's just for old times sake.

While researching these loads, I reread this thread very closely. After rereading, and since I am going to be testing CFE Pistol, I did a linear regression analysis for CFE and 158 XTP's from Hodgdon's current manual. Here is what I found:

CFE Pistol, 158 XTP, 7.7" barrel:

4.6 gr., 816 FPS, 13,600 PSI Tabulated
5.0 gr., 914 FPS, 16,200 PSI Tabulated
5.4 gr., 986 FPS, 18,500 PSI Tabulated (+P)

5.6 gr., 1034 FPS, 20,000 PSI Extrapolated (+P)

7.5 gr., 1440 FPS, 31,400 PSI Extrapolated (.357 Mag. level)

Please note that these results are with a 7.7" test barrel and jacketed bullets. YMMV.

I am a P.E., mechanical engineer, and have been reloading since 1978.

As an aside, Dr. Fackler's research on the FBI load in the late 1980's seems to indicate that the optimum combination of penetration (12" - 18") and expansion (0.5" - 0.6") for both bare and clothed gelatin occurs with a muzzle velocity of about 875 - 900 FPS. I am shooting for (bad pun intended) about 875 FPS from my 2" J-frames and will take what I get in everything else.

S/F,

RAS, P.E. (aka Walter)

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A man's got to know his limita