Serial Numbers Question

[Absalom]

I guess there is a first time for everything. A gun I was buying came back as stolen when my transfer dealer ran it through NCIC, and brought a visit from the local PD. I happen to know the investigating officer, and even though I'm not supposed to discuss names, the actual model or serial number, everything in this post is okay to share.
The theft report goes back 40 years, in another part of the country. All we have so far on the stolen gun is S&W, .38 (not specified whether Spl.), and the serial number, five digits with no letters, all of which matches the gun at hand and was sufficient to trigger the NCIC alert.
Both the officer and I think that there is a good chance that due to the large number of different models S&W made in .38 and .38 Spl., there are probably more guns out there matching these criteria with an overlapping serial. He is trying get more details from the reporting department, while I'm wanting to figure out how likely it is that there is more than one gun that matches.
So before I start hitting the Catalog and do a lot of research, I thought I'd throw the question out to the large pool of experts on this forum: How many different models could potentially be out there with the same serial number, if any?
All input is greatly appreciated.

Btw., I'm posting this in the antiques subforum because the gun in question is an antique, and none of the many modern Smiths I've owned had a serial that short and w/o letters in it.

[Wiregrassguy]

There are a lot more folks on here that have better information than I and I am NO expert, but I suspect your .38 is .38 S&W and a top break. Chances are it has a matching SN with a hand ejector since S&W started the SN's over again at 1 with the 1899 M&P. In fact, I would wager a confectionary on that premise.

[deadin]

If it is an antique in .38 it is a top-break in .38 S&W. (No 38 Specials until 1899)
There could be duplicate numbers between .38 Double Action, .38 Single Action and .38 Hammerless. (You didn't mention the model..) There is also the possibility of one ofthe NM #3's being chambered in some form of 38, but they're fairly rare.Same with the large frame DA's.

My question would be if it is a antique, why was it going thru a transfer dealers books in the first place? (Or is there some sort of an Oregon law I'm not aware of?)

Added: Guy's premise is one I hadn't thought of and is probably right...

[glowe]

Since it had to go through a NICS check, it can not be any top-break model, except maybe a 38 Perfected and 38 Safety. I think all 5 digit 38 Hammerless were made before 1898 however.
That leaves HEs.

Obviously, the 38 M&Ps are the most prevelant out there and a 5 digit number would have been manufactered from 1902 to 1908 or so. Victory Model has a "V" prefix, so if originally captured, it would not qualify but was made with 5 digit serial numbers. Also, I suppose that a 357 Magnum could have been listed as a 38 caliber, since that was the dimension of the 38 Special as well.

Others could be:
38/22 Terrier
38/44 HE/Heavy Duty
38/44 Outsdoorsman
38 Regulation Police were mostly 6 digit numbers, but some were 5 digit
38 Chiefs Special
38 Centenial

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by deadin

My question would be if it is a antique, why was it going thru a transfer dealers books in the first place? (Or is there some sort of an Oregon law I'm not aware of?)
...

I'm using "antique" in the way this forum uses it, not the way ATF defines it. Too many people think anything made before 1898 is legally an antique. Not so. If it fires centerfire ammo that's still manufactured, like .38 S&W, ATF does not consider it an antique, no matter when it was made, and you need to do interstate transfers through an FFL (although there are quite a few people, including on Gunbroker, who are not aware of that).

Here is the pertinent quote from the ATF handbook (my underlining):

26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

If you got in trouble, I guess you could try to have an argument with ATF about whether modern smokeless .38S&W loads are "different ammunition" than the black powder loads you would have bought in 1890, but knowing the Feds, I don't think that would get you very far.
By the way, of course I'm talking about interstate sales. If I misunderstood and you were asking about Oregon requiring a transfer dealer for local sales, I apologize for the lecture. But I don't know of any state requiring that for any handgun, so I assumed.

[DWalt]

You are misinterpreting the definition of an antique in several respects. Any firearm manufactured prior to 1899 (not 1898) is an antique, even if it was originally designed to fire a metallic cartridge. What is not an antique is an antique or post 1898 replica which has been modified to fire metallic cartridges (with some exceptions). There is some confusion regarding what antique firearms can be shipped using USPS involving persons which are not federally-licensed dealers, and also impinges on the definition of a Curio and Relic. For example, a S&W .38 DA made in 1896 is definitely an antique, and is unregulated under BATFE statutes.. But it is unclear as to whether an ordinary person can ship it to anyone using USPS. There are lots of differences of opinion on this point.

Second - there are LOTS of revolvers of different types and ages which could have identical serial numbers and are in the same caliber. A revolver described only an an "S&W .38 Special revolver having SN 23456" is inadequately described to make a determination as to whether it has been stolen or not.

I don't think you are going to get any useful answers here about your situation without a much more complete explanation of the circumstances.

[glowe]

As DWalt says, there are official classifications of antique firearms and they have nothing to do with caliber. Simple to state that it is not necessary or even advised to send an antique through a NICS check. Any FFL worth their salt will tell you that and not charge you just to make a few bucks on a NICS check for an antique firearm. I will not bother to bid on auctions where the auction house states that their antiques require an FFL to ship to. It is not the law and costs many bidders extra money that need not be spent.

I suggest you contact the BATF and get the information directly from an enforcement officer.

Here is a list that the BATF uses to determine classifications of various S&Ws. There are also lists for all other brands of revolvers as well.

S&W Single Action (SA) .32 and .38 top break revolvers, all are pre-1899

S&W Spur Trigger: With the exception of one rare S&W model, production of single-action spur trigger revolver frames had essentially stopped by 1892. So just about all of these are antique.)

S&W Double Action (DA) .32 top break revolvers with hammer (serial # below 209,301)

S&W DA .32 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 91,400)

S&W DA .38 top break revolvers with hammer (serial # below 382,022)

S&W DA .38 top break hammerless ("lemon squeezer") revolvers (serial # below 119,900)

S&W Model 3 and New Model 3 single action revolvers, all are pre-1899

Important Note: An article by Roy Jinks (S&W factory historian), some years ago reported that all of the *frames* for the large frame top-break S&Ws were made prior to 1899, and hence all New Model #3's, .44 DA 1st Models, DA Frontiers, and related models are considered "antique" by the BATFE, even though they may have been cataloged and even assembled well into the early 20th century. Special thanks to Roy Jinks and the S&W Collector's Association for this information.

S&W .45 Schofield revolvers, all are pre-1899 (Note: Most of the Schofields currently on the market are modern replicas)

S&W DA First Model revolver, all are pre-1899

S&W DA "Frontier" revolvers, all are pre-1899

S&W DA "Favorite" revolvers, all are pre-1899

S&W Model 1891, all are pre-1899

S&W 1st Model hand ejector (.32s only), all are pre-1899

[BreakMyTop]

Originally Posted by Absalom

I'm using "antique" in the way this forum uses it, not the way ATF defines it. Too many people think anything made before 1898 is legally an antique. Not so. If it fires centerfire ammo that's still manufactured, like .38 S&W, ATF does not consider it an antique, no matter when it was made, and you need to do interstate transfers through an FFL (although there are quite a few people, including on Gunbroker, who are not aware of that).

Here is the pertinent quote from the ATF handbook (my underlining):

26 U.S.C. § 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

This appears on in reference to NFA controlled firearms. for all others:

U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 44 › § 921
18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or



(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Second - there are LOTS of revolvers of different types and ages which could have identical serial numbers and are in the same caliber. A revolver described only an an "S&W .38 Special revolver having SN 23456" is inadequately described to make a determination as to whether it has been stolen or not.

I don't think you are going to get any useful answers here about your situation without a much more complete explanation of the circumstances.

You misunderstand what useful answer I'm looking for, because you totally confirm my point. If the police can't come up with any more detail and I can tell them, look, there are 30 guns out there that could fit the number and criteria, what's the likelihood?, they'll close the case and give me my gun, since there is no way to prove this is it, at least acc. to my friend at the PD.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by glowe

Any FFL worth their salt will tell you that and not charge you just to make a few bucks on a NICS check for an antique firearm. I will not bother to bid on auctions where the auction house states that their antiques require an FFL to ship to. It is not the law and costs many bidders extra money that need not be spent.

I kinda think I got my money's worth here, if it turns out I would have bought a stolen gun.
But thanks for that list. In the future, that will be very handy. I went to a gun show across the river in Washington quite a few years ago, and a dealer showed me a copy of the ATF handbook statement above to explain why he wouldn't sell me a 1890s pistol without the transfer dealer rigamarole, and I've been working with that assumption ever since. You just never stop learning.

[deadin]

dealer showed me a copy of the ATF handbook statement above to explain why he wouldn't sell me a 1890s

Sounds like you ran across one of the dealers that have opted to take the easy way out and not have to learn the ATF regulations. (KIt's more common than you might think....)

[Wiregrassguy]

A Honeybun would be nice...or a Dunkin' Donut...

[shawn mccarver]

Originally Posted by Absalom

Too many people think anything made before 1898 is legally an antique. Not so. If it fires centerfire ammo that's still manufactured, like .38 S&W, ATF does not consider it an antique, no matter when it was made. Here is the pertinent quote from the ATF handbook (my underlining). . . .

Wow - I guess almost everyone I know has an incorrect understanding of what constitutes an "antique" under the LAW (the ATF "handbook" is NOT the law, but merely what its author THINKS is the law, written in simpler terms, I suppose on the theory that their people cannot be trusted to actually read and understand what the law ACTUALLY says).

Here is what the law ACTUALLY says:

"(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof."

Subsection A is the applicable one in this case. Subsections B and C deal with replicas and muzzle loaders.

The last time I checked "ANY" means ANY and "in or before 1898" means in or before 1898. There are NO qualifiers about whether ammo is now available or not.

[DWalt]

Correct. Now, some states may have different definitions of an Antique under their laws. And there is nothing illegal about some FFL licensee requiring a purchaser to follow non-antique transfer requirements for a BATFE-defined antique arm if they insist. All you can do is not buy from them. I think there was a long discussion here not too long ago about who can ship an antique handgun (pre-1899) chambered for a currently available cartridge using USPS. I don't think the question was ever resolved, and may never be. The USPS regulation defies interpretation on this point. USPS employees will not interpret their own regulations, and in fact are forbidden to do so.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by shawn mccarver

Wow - I guess almost everyone I know has an incorrect understanding of what constitutes an "antique" under the LAW (the ATF "handbook" is NOT the law, but merely what its author THINKS is the law, written in simpler terms, I suppose on the theory that their people cannot be trusted to actually read and understand what the law ACTUALLY says).
.

Well, the problem here is what one chooses to read as "the law". Your quote is from the Gun Control Act, mine from the National Firearms Act. Both are currently "the law". I do not lay claim to the expertise to decide which one applies in any given situation, and more importantly, which one the Feds would choose to apply.

[Absalom]

Okay, all's well. Just got a call from my friend at the PD, who finally heard back from the place where the theft report came from. Turns out the NCIC report left out the little fact that the stolen gun was blued. This one is nickel. Case closed. I'll get it tomorrow.
Thanks everyone for your contributions. And if anyone ever offers you a S&W .38 with serial #45135 that is blued, be aware it might be stolen.
Good night.

[JSR III]

and you need to do interstate transfers through an FFL (although there are quite a few people, including on Gunbroker, who are not aware of that).

While we are discussing rules and laws, lets clear up a few areas of that statement.

The term FFL is bandied about and is generally used to describe someone that deals in firearms ie: a dealer. The initials actually mean Federal Firearms License.

There are many classes of Federal Firearm Licenses.

01 - Dealer
02 - Pawnbroker
03 - C&R
06 - Mfg. of ammo
07 - Mfg. of firearms
08 - Importer of firearms
09 - Dealer in destructive devices
10 - Mfg. destructive devices
11 - Importer of destructive devices

you need to do interstate transfers through an FFL

This is true if you are referring to anyone on the list shown above, however, if you are using the term FFL as many folks do to refer to a "dealer" then you are incorrect. As the holder of a C&R FFL I AM able to acquire firearms through interstate commerce without the use of an FFL - 01 (dealer) on either end. A private party can send me a C&R qualified firearm directly. That being ANY firearm that is 50 years old (a relic) or any firearm that is on the BATF list (a curio). There are some exclusions like most machine guns, non original military firearms etc. but that is a different discussion.

In addition, the BATF considers the mfg. date as the determining date as to when a firearm was made. Once the serial number is placed on the frame, the BATF considers it a firearm. Since S&W did not keep track of mfg. dates, the BATF accepts the shipping date as acceptable for establishing a S&W's age. Obviously, since a gun has to be manufactured before it is shipped, they have no problem using the shipping date as the birth date. As one of the earlier posters pointed out, since it is established that many S&W frames were built prior to the antique cut off date, even if shipped after that date, the BATF would consider them as antiques.

I hope that helps.

PS: So now all a thief has to do is have a gun nickled and its no longer stolen.

[deadin]

Well, the problem here is what one chooses to read as "the law". Your quote is from the Gun Control Act, mine from the National Firearms Act. Both are currently "the law".

Yes, both are "the law" but they are not the same as they address a different class of firearm. The NFA is concerned with "Machine guns", Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns, Destructive Devices and a class called "Other Weapons", all of which require some sort of registration, paperwork and a tax stamp. The GCA is for regular rifles, shotguns and handguns.
The definition of "Antique Firearm" is different in each. The one we are concerned with is the GCA definition, which is the one I posted earlier.

[red9]

Going back to the original question, just within the HE models your s/n could be found on I frame 38 S&W and J, K and N frame 38 Specials. Next add into the equation the fact (frequently demonstrated in "what is it" posts) that people often omit letters or use assembly numbers in place of the s/n. Good luck. Hopefully, the entering agency no longer has a case file and the investigation will be dropped.

Bob

[DWalt]

The purpose of the present scheme of firearm serial identification (using somewhat arbitrary number and letter combinations) is intended to provide better identification than the former method, where only numeric characters were used. There won't be any duplications of identfiers across different calibers, makers, or model platforms. The identifier is now unique to an individual firearm, and cannot be duplicated.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by JSR III

PS: So now all a thief has to do is have a gun nickled and its no longer stolen.

FINAL UPDATE:
I just received my copy of the official police report. The distinction that cleared my gun wasn't just the finish, but the stolen gun was also reported as having a 2-inch barrel, whereas mine has the 3.25-inch barrel.