Model of 91/10" barrel/38cal/ 1 of 160 made!!

[BMur]

I'm retired now so finally getting to my project guns. This rare bird was in very bad shape when I bought it many moons ago.
Putting it back into shooting shape. I'm actually looking forward to shooting it. The bore is mint. See photo's of bullet slug. Mic's at .359 groove/ .349 land. So mirror mint.

I'm working on the damaged hammer and will install a modified front sight that I prefer for target shooting. The numbers all match and it actually is on the serial number List in the Neil and Jinks book. (No factory letter yet)

Also, this target gun was manufactured prior to 1898 since it does not have the logo on the frame nor does it have a caliber stamp on the barrel.

Ok, now to the "issue".... I'm working up a Target Black Powder load for this gun and noticed right away that the chamber depth is 1 1/16" ?? That doesn't make sense to me. A target gun should have a very tight chamber depth that matches "exactly" the case length of the intended cartridge. These are listed as 38 S&W centerfire. The early 38 S&W is actually "WAY" too short for this chamber. See photos.

It easily chambers a .38 Long Colt and very near chambers a .38 Special wadcutter loaded to specs. However the 38 Special case is just a bit too long so it runs up on the chamber lip.

So, I cut a .38 Special case just enough to "MATCH" the chamber length and intend to load .360 wadcutters. See photo of modified trimmed case.

My Questions to the forum is:

What am I missing regarding the chamber depth on this Target gun?

I'm not aware of a special 38 caliber load for the 160 guns made in this caliber but the 38 Smith and Wesson is definitely not correct for this longer chamber and would not perform well since the case is too short leaving a long gap between the bullet and the rifling.


Murph

[murphydog]

Was it made (or altered) to fire the .38-44 Target round?

[StrawHat]

Are you sure it is factory chambered?

Kevin

[rct269]

You and I are on the same page when it comes to what the chamber should be. In view of the fact that isn't what it is (anymore), and cannot (reasonably) be returned to the original, I suggest you get in touch with Gary Lowe ("glowe") for his solution to a similar situation. His situation is his barrel was chambered for the 38-44 S&W round (a la NM #3 Target fodder). His solution was to fashion 357 Maximum brass to suit, load up some rounds, and fire away. I don't know the particulars (powder/powder charge/bullet(s)), only that he's happy with the results.

Ralph Tremaine

[BMur]

It’s definitely not the 38-44 chambering. Way too short for that.
I have no idea if it’s factory. It does not look altered. Even if it was? Altered to what caliber?
It really likes the 38 Long Colt. Is that possible? Maybe even a 38 Long rifle round?
It’s definitely NOT a 38 S&W chamber.

Murph

[murphydog]

Well, with the chamber at the length of a .38 Long Colt, perhaps it was simply altered to fire what may have been plentiful stockpiles of surplus military ammunition back in the day. Of all the alterations that can easily duplicate factory work, I would think rechambering would be near the top of the list.

[BMur]

I took a better look this time....With my 60 power eyes and a bright light and I can see some milling marks in the chamber so I guess you guys are correct. They sure didn't get the length right though....So, I'll have to make custom rounds for it by trimming 38 Special shells to fit....

I have no idea what they were trying to accomplish unless the 38 Long colt was the concept. I'm sure it would shoot that round ok but it's not a perfect fit.

Oh well, hoodwinked yet again by Bubba. Didn't even know it til 20 years later!


Murph

[ol777gunnerz]

Over the years on this forum there have been a few altered calibers in the single shots, off hand I remember someone has a .22lr that was changed to 22 magnum. I myself have one re-sleeved by H M Pope to 22 short, so the owner could use it for the indoor meets circa 1910.

[StrawHat]

Can a chamber cast be made. If so, take some good measurements and then you will know what you need to create.

Kevin

[rct269]

Well, I wondered about the 38 Long Colt concept. Then I wondered about the "mirror mint" bore----and the dimensions cited for the barrel slug. I figured when you took all those things together, whatever the concept was would make sense. Then, of course, I had to look up about the 38 Long Colt----said the bullet diameter was .357". I got confused right about then because "mirror mint" bore + barrel slug dimensions + .357" diameter 38 Long Colt bullets made me think the result didn't make much sense at all. Now that may very well be because I don't know diddly about shooting anything except plain vanilla----regular everyday stuff like .22 Long Rifle, .38 Special, and .45 ACP; and that meant I was going to be needing some help from somebody who knows about stuff that doesn't make sense to folks like me.

Ralph Tremaine

[murphydog]

Originally Posted by BMur

I took a better look this time....With my 60 power eyes and a bright light and I can see some milling marks in the chamber so I guess you guys are correct. They sure didn't get the length right though....So, I'll have to make custom rounds for it by trimming 38 Special shells to fit....

I have no idea what they were trying to accomplish unless the 38 Long colt was the concept. I'm sure it would shoot that round ok but it's not a perfect fit.

Oh well, hoodwinked yet again by Bubba. Didn't even know it til 20 years later!


Murph

Perhaps go all out, change the chamber length to 1.15" (.38 Special), and have a barrel that doesn't need special brass? Would you also need to load it with .38 S & W bullets?

[Oyeboteb]

I do not know what to make of this..!


How odd!

[BMur]

I did think about extending the chamber just a tad to make life easier and just load 38 Special Wadcutters but for me personally it’s easy to shave brass. I’ll make 50, load I’m up and just keep reloading those.

The bore does require a 360 lead bullet for optimum accuracy in my opinion so I’ll use my square head Wadcutter mold. Circa 1905.

This target gun should be my most accurate gun period. Reason being there is zero gap from Bullet to rifling. In fact it can’t be better. The gun is built like a rifle so rifle accuracy is what I am expecting. Target revolvers still have to jump the gap between the face of the cylinder/forcing cone/ then rifling.

In this single shot the Wadcutter bullet would actually start spinning before it leaves the brass shell.

Ralph,
The 38 Long Colt has a long history. Originally an outside lubricated .375 bullet. Was then changed in 1891 to an inside lubricated .360 hollow based bullet. That’s the round on the right that is photo’d from my collection. So it would be very accurate in this target gun but not nail driving since the chamber was not modified correctly. It’s too long for the 38 Long case. So there is a gap for the bullet to jump before it hits the rifling.

The shell directly to the left is the exact chamber length now existing. I shaved that case to match. The round all the way to the left is a 38 special wadcutter. Just a tad too long.

I’ll have fun with this gun for sure. I expect it to be extremely accurate once I dial it in with the perfect powder load, bullet, and lube.

I’ll post a range report once I get it all together. My other target guns are already good to go. This is the last one on my list to get ready for a full day of shooting.

Murph

[keithhagan]

Have you considered sizing down some 41 long colt brass from using .386 to .360/.361 bullets? It's got the same rim size and is already a hair shorter than 38 special.

Starline carries new 41 long colt brass.

[george_lehr]

You said that the .38 S&W is way too short, but does a case chamber? I ask because it's my understanding that the .38 S&W case is larger in diameter than .38 Special. Also, that the old .38/200 British revolvers often had chambers reamed deeper to accommodate .38 special rounds, but that expanded or split .38 special cases could result if fired in those chambers.

[BMur]

Keith,
I’ve never altered the 41 Long case due to cost. I have played a lot with the 38 Special case only because I would pick them up off the ground in volume at the range for years. Free brass is pretty cheap. Made 41 Long, 38 Long/ Short Colt, 38 S&W, all out of 38 special also.

George,

I agree. Without modifying the 38 special brass you do run the risk of splitting cases. I have a case expander. I anneal the 38 special case and expand it to match the 38 S&W prior to loading and yes it does chamber the 38 S&W. I’ve done this many times to load my 38 S&W top breaks. I have so much 38 special brass that I use it for a lot of other calibers including 41 Long Colt by heating and expanding the case in two stages. It works very well with black powder loads and a lot better than upwards of $1 a case for 41 Long Colt brass!!

What they want for ammo now makes me sick. Reloading is fun and saves a ton of money on ammo.

Murph

[glowe]

Originally Posted by rct269

. . . His situation is his barrel was chambered for the 38-44 S&W round (a la NM #3 Target fodder). His solution was to fashion 357 Maximum brass to suit, load up some rounds, and fire away. I don't know the particulars (powder/powder charge/bullet(s)), only that he's happy with the results . . .

I do not know when the factory sold off their excess inventory of single shot barrels, but they were in the white and sold off as originally offered by S&W. Propperts had many barrels several years ago and I decided to pick up a 38 S&W barrel to go with my target 38 Model of 1891 revolver. It was as advertised, no serial number, in the white, roll stamped address but no SMITH & WESSON or caliber stamped. Metal was as it would have left the initial manufacture but not quite finished or polished. I was able to use a modified extractor system from a 38 DA parts gun and fashion the extractor plate to get the case extraction system working properly and finished the barrel.

I shot 38 S&W with very poor results, trying various bullet weights and powder combinations with no improvements. I finally got around to closely check out the rifling and found it to be perfect for a .361" bullet, but also finally noticed that the chamber was deep into the barrel. Perfectly done with absolutely no sign of rework. polished and finished perfectly.

I measured the chamber and started to look for brass only to find that it was exactly the same dimension as a 38-44 Target case. This was a case that was loaded similar to the 320 Revolving Rifle where the bullet was fully seated inside the case.
Measuring it I determined it matched the 38/44 case exactly.

I called Poppert's for more data and they stated that all barrels were sold as they came from the factory and offered to trade it back to them for a short chambered 38 S&W barrel, but I said no thanks, I'll keep it. Long story short, with Ralph's assistance, I was able to come up with a load that ran about 660 fps and shot very well.

Process involved finding Remington 357 Maximum brass and trimming it to fit the chamber. The original cartridges were loaded as follows” The 38-44 is a special target cartridge containing 20 grs of powder and 146 of lead either self-lubricated or grooved bullet. Bullet is seated even with mouth of shell. Penetration 6 7/8 in pine boards. Gallery charge, 6grs of powder and 70gr round ball loaded in same shell.

In order to reproduce the ballistics of the original caliber, I used a 158 grain gas check SWC. The reason for the selection was that the bullets dropped from my mold at .361”, just what I needed. Added 3.2 grains of Unique and filled the case with Puflon. Velocity averaged 661 fps and accuracy improved dramatically at 25 yards. Bottom line is that my barrel almost had to be done at the factory, possibly to test other calibers, but this one was never put on a gun so maybe a few were bored for 38-44 and some were finished and tested without ever producing them for sale.

[Jim Watson]

We get so many warnings against the chance of getting a .38 +P in an old or otherwise unsuitable gun, I think you are well off trimming brass to an odd length for your single shot.

I think its theoretical zero "jump" has a way to go to beat a good revolver, though.

[rct269]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

We get so many warnings against the chance of getting a .38 +P in an old or otherwise unsuitable gun, I think you are well off trimming brass to an odd length for your single shot.

I think its theoretical zero "jump" has a way to go to beat a good revolver, though.

Good revolvers become EXQUISITE revolvers when combined with zero "jump".(!!)

Ralph Tremaine

[Trapper70]

Murph

I stand in awe of your toys and expertise. Anxious for you to share the load data that you work-up.

[BMur]

Thanks Trapper,

Well I admit, I got a little lazy and decided to use pre- made lead bullets. Only due to my shop temp being what it is?

Anyway, I decided to use 3 loads and two different bullets. A 158 grain round nose and my 125 grain target bullet. Both are custom cast to .360. The 125 grain is Lazer cast and I have had excellent results in long barrel S&W topbreaks at 20 yard targets.

I had to tap into my stash of primers and thought the forum would get a kick out of the price tag on my Winchester primers? That’s why we stock pile reloading supplies for times like these!

Photo of my loaded rounds are as follows:


1st load) ( Left cartridge)
16 grains of FFFG Goex compressed with the 125 grain/ .360 Lazer molded target bullet. The case is expanded below the bullet seating depth to match the chamber diameter.( Trick for optimum accuracy) The top 1/3 of the case is run through a RCBS .38 cal sizing die to provide a tight seat without crimping the case. This helps to line up the bullet for perfect initial contact with the rifling.

2nd load) ( cartridge on right)
Identical powder load as first. Same shell specs also except this load has a 158 grain round nose lead bullet compressed against the powder.
*** Notice also the photo of the 158 grain bullet run through the bore? That’s exactly what you want to see from your bullet selection.

3rd load)( middle cartridge)

This is the hottest load. 19.5 grains of compressed FFFG Goex. 125 grain target Lazer molded bullet. Again, lower case is expanded to match bore dimension and mouth of case is only run 1/3 into a RCBS .38 sizing die. I intend to try this single shot at 50 yards so this will be the down range load.

Now, if the weather will just get better?

Murph

[StrawHat]

Any reason not to use FFFFg? I use it with good results in several cartridges.

Kevin

[BMur]

Ive never tried FFFFG in a pistol load. What kind of results did you get? What calibers?

Murph

[StrawHat]

I have used it in revolvers from 32 tp 45 ACP. I don’t own or use a chronograph, but judging target impact there is a velocity increase over the same amount of 3f. Also, you can fit more in even before you compress the load.
I use Olde Eynesford because it was available at the Log Cabin the day I was there.

Regular pistol primer and appropriate lube rounds out the formula.

If I can be of any other assistance, let me know.

Kevin

[glowe]

Published documentation suggests a 15% to 20% increase in pressures using 4F and recommend a similar reduction if volume between each grade of BP. The only valid use for FFFF powder is for priming flintlocks, using it in a pistol cartridge will definitely increase pressures and velocities. There is no need to increase velocities above that of 3F when loading cartridges and 2F above 50 caliber.

Kevin, I would ask that you consider a chrono. Without it experiments like using 4F in cartridges is not wise. Reloading opens up all types of possibilities and one can do custom loading, but without a chrono you just do not know what you are dealing with.

My use of a chronograph started 30 years ago after using an old reloading manual for 32-20 S&W. I was reloading some 32-20 for my first 32 Winchester M&P using an old manual that stated loads for revolvers. I loaded and shot these reloads and they worked, but the report was very sharp, unlike sub-sonic revolver ammo. I contacted a friend who brought out a chrono and we were able to get actual speed, which was just a shade over 1200 fps!!!!!

I rechecked the load manual, pulled bullets, weighing them and the powder, checked my primers and everything was exactly as the manual stated. My only guess was the author misused rifle loads in the revolver section???

Bottom line, anyone who reloads should own and use a chrono when changing loading components or guns. With all the safety checks one uses when loading, this is the most important for me, since I have yet to see the velocities stated in the manuals being matched with my guns and reloads and want to know where I am. Velocities and pressures are linked and without knowing either one is not wise. A $100 investment may save a $1000 gun or a body part someday.

[Jim Watson]

Good luck with blue wax bullet lube over black.

[BMur]

You sure that's what that is Jim?

Could it be Apache Blue lube, or Carnauba Blue Wax lube, or perhaps I removed the lube and applied my secret lube before loading? Maybe even apply a soft lube prior to shooting each round? Many options out there for black powder cast loads. Each having different results at the target.


Murph

[StrawHat]

Originally Posted by glowe

Published documentation suggests a 15% to 20% increase in pressures using 4F and recommend a similar reduction if volume between each grade of BP. The only valid use for FFFF powder is for priming flintlocks, using it in a pistol cartridge will definitely increase pressures and velocities. There is no need to increase velocities above that of 3F when loading cartridges and 2F above 50 caliber.

Kevin, I would ask that you consider a chrono. Without it experiments like using 4F in cartridges is not wise. Reloading opens up all types of possibilities and one can do custom loading, but without a chrono you just do not know what you are dealing with.

My use of a chronograph started 30 years ago after using an old reloading manual for 32-20 S&W. I was reloading some 32-20 for my first 32 Winchester M&P using an old manual that stated loads for revolvers. I loaded and shot these reloads and they worked, but the report was very sharp, unlike sub-sonic revolver ammo. I contacted a friend who brought out a chrono and we were able to get actual speed, which was just a shade over 1200 fps!!!!!

I rechecked the load manual, pulled bullets, weighing them and the powder, checked my primers and everything was exactly as the manual stated. My only guess was the author misused rifle loads in the revolver section???

Bottom line, anyone who reloads should own and use a chrono when changing loading components or guns. With all the safety checks one uses when loading, this is the most important for me, since I have yet to see the velocities stated in the manuals being matched with my guns and reloads and want to know where I am. Velocities and pressures are linked and without knowing either one is not wise. A $100 investment may save a $1000 gun or a body part someday.

No argument about pressures being higher with 4f. But it is still black powder and I have used it only in small capacity cases.

But, I and others have dissembled original black powder cartridges and in handgun cartridges the powder is much finer than modern 3f. Some rifle cartridges also.

I have responded more in a PM so as not to run this train farther off the rails.

Kevin