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S&W 1.5" Banker

Not my auction and I am not bidding

please tell me about this model

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5th Model Safety from around 1922-25 - you should really post this under "Antiques" for more knowledgeable opions than mine. The stocks are probably a later addition and not numbered to the gun. Looks like original nickel to me, and maybe even the original 1-1/2 inch barrel, though only a letter will tell for sure. If it is what it claims to be, only the buyer will know if it is worth $7,500!

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Peter #2091

Dosgatos,
I believe the Seller's Description is Correct that this is One of the Two 1 1/2 Inchers that came from Gary Garbrecht's Collection & were sold at the Amoskeag Auction in 2005 or 2006,but I thought they both had Factory Letters stating they were correct!! Not positively sure,but I thought I remembered the Amoskeag Description stating they did!! It is true that one sold for $8000+,but I believe that this one only brought around $4000 or so!! I also believe the Stocks are correct if this is,in fact,the same Revolver!! Pricing aside,this "Is" a Very,Very Scarce Safety Hammerless in any case!! Although given it's Condition & without the Factory Letter I seriously doubt it will bring the asking price,but you just never know!!

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Masterpiece

Bushmaster,

I know a fair amount about these Little Revolvers,but I believe I'm going to let the "Resident Expert" Mike Maher(mmaher94087) give you the complete rundown on these!! I'm sure when he sees the Thread he'll be along shortly & have a much better explanation for you than myself!! These Little Safety Hammerless/New Departure Top-Breaks are pretty much his specialty!! He may even know the specifics of the Amoskeag Auction,where I believe this Revolver was auctioned some years back,in case some of my information was incorrect!!

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Masterpiece

To All Interested,

I did a little more digging into these 1 1/2" Safety's since my previous post & came up with some more info for you!! It seems that the Interest & Realized Prices of these Rare Revolvers has diminished "Drastically" since the Amoskeag Auction!! I found 4 more that were "Lettered" as being shipped with 1 1/2" Barrels & sold at one of Martin's Auctions in 2009!! The Prices Realized for these High Condition Revolvers was well below the $8000 & $4000 Mark that these Short Barreled Revolvers sold for in 2005!! These also came from another well-known S&W Collector (Bill Maier) whom I'm sure most of you knew!! In fact,there was even a 1 5/8" Barreled 5th Model 38 Safety that is even Rarer than the 1 1/2" Revolvers being 1 of only 3-5 known to exist & the price realized was only $3000!!

Point to all this being,I believe the Seller of the one in question should have done a bit more research before placing such an Enormous Starting Bid on his Auction!! So given it's Mediocre Condition,Lack of Factory Letter,& a few other Questionable Issues,I think he'll own that one for some time to come!! In fact now,I beginning to wonder if that Revolver was even the other one that sold for $4000 or so at the Amoskeag Auction in 2005!! Maybe Mike Maher will be along shortly to clear this up because truthfully my recollection of that Auction was too long ago for me to remember the specifics!!

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Masterpiece

I'm curious about the checkered walnut grips. My understanding is that these were available as an option late in the gun's production, that is late 1930s. This set is on a gun from the early 1920s. On the other hand, I have two sets of these grips, and both are numbered (in pencil) in the 250,000 series. I have been keeping a data base on shipping dates for a few while, which lists three guns in the 250s, two from 1922 and one from 1925.

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Peter #2091

It looks like the real thing to me, but with out a factory letter I wouldn't pay 1/15th of what they are asking. The fact that he doesn't mention a factory letter sounds a warning bell to me. I believe that he is asking way to much even if it is a factory 1 1/2 inch special order gun. I have a couple of the Gary Garbrecht guns and they came with factory letters.
I think the Guns sold from the Bill Maier collection sold well below their value because of the sheer number of Safety Hammerless guns sold. Bill had acquired upwards of 100 the rarest, finest Safetys ever collected. They were all put on the market at once and I think that that lowered the average price considerably. There were over a half dozen of the very rare ultra short barrel for sale alone. There were dozens of engraved guns and dozens of absolutely pristine of every barrel length. He had the rarest of the rare and there are only so many high end collectors out there. If they had sold individually I think they would have collected higher prices.

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Mark Connot

Mark,

I fully agree!! Bill's Revolvers were the "Best of the Best"!! Especially in the realm of Safety Hammerless Revolvers!! I think the observations you stated could very well have been the reason the Realized Prices were so low on his,but on the other hand I think the interest in these Early Revolvers has been falling as well & has had a great affect also!! I've seen this happening with most Antique S&W Revolvers in recent years!! Even the Rare or Scarce High Condition Early Smith's don't seem to bring what they have in years past!!

You also mentioned that the guns you picked up at the Amoskeag Auction that came from Gary's Collection were "Lettered" as I thought they were!! I couldn't specifically remember the Serial Numbers of the 1 1/2" Safety's they sold,but I thought both had Factory Letters!! You would think the Seller of the one in question would have known that!! I also believe,as you do,this Revolver is Original!! Regardless,without some documentation to back his comments he doesn't have a chance of realizing anything near that price!!

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Masterpiece

Peter,

I have no reason to believe the Grips on this Revolver are not correct!! One thing you have to remember is S&W didn't ship or build their Revolvers in any Specific Serial No. Order whatsoever even during this time period!! So needless to say,whatever they had at the time the gun was built or shipped went on the Revolver unless Special-Ordered!! I have seen these Checkered Wood Stocks well before the 1930's on Small Dbl.Action Top-Breaks and/or Safety's!! Some as early as the Late Teen's & quite a few in the 20's that are the correct grips for the Revolver!! Truthfully,I'm not sure if there "Is" an exact timeframe when they became available!! You've seen that yourself by the information you mentioned!!

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Masterpiece

It appears that I'm late for th party... I agree with everything posted above and can't shed any new light on the subject. Without a letter or a guaranteed refund if it doesn't letter as 1 1/2"; I wouldn't touch it. I feel the price is way off target anyway. Also, I do not believe the factory was concerned with "exact" barrel legnths due to the process of cutting and crowning a barrel. I own a 2 1/4" that 'letters' as a 2". Small variations were normal. Oh, by the way, thank you for the flattering title. Mike #283

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Mike Maher #283

Hi Mike,

Geez,after all that I may have to change your "New" Title to something else!! Ha!Ha! I thought for sure you'd have something earth-shattering to tell us!! Thanks for stopping by anyway!! Even if it was only to let everyone know we all weren't full of it!! By the way,"You're Welcome"!!

Take Care!!

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Masterpiece

I have a Blue one, somewhere in the two inch length, and, if memory serve, the Barrel has the SMITH & WESSON name, and, the Calibre designation on it.

I will see if I can find it later and look.

Should these latter 1930s clean-up run 'Bankers' versions not have the Barrel Texts also?

I think just about all the really short Barrel 5th Mdl ones have Serial Numbers in a fairly close range toeachother ( with extremely few having sold prior to the latter 1930s ), from when a bunch were set aside to be short Barrel versions...but were not finished or sold ( discounted even, to try and move them out ) till later in the 1930s...

Yes?

I was hoping to find a bit of information on the history of this little revolvers

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(Quote)
Should these latter 1930s clean-up run 'Bankers' versions not have the Barrel Texts also?

Oyeboteb,

This is one of the Questionable Issues that I mentioned previously about the Revolver we've been discussing!! Yes,most all of them including the 2" Bicycle Revolvers had the Caliber Designation & Company Name Roll-Marked in the Sides of the Barrel rather than the Top Rib!! This said,I have run across a few over the years that somehow missed this process in the course of production,but did "Letter" correctly as I believe this one might because of all the Matching Numbers!! This is one of the many reasons,disregarding the price,why the lack of the Factory Letter is going to stop anyone from buying this Revolver!!

Also,as far as the Serial No.Ranges these were made in,I found that out of the 9 or 10 I know of only 2 of the 10 were actually shipped after 1930!! So by this,I believe the observation I mentioned previously about no rhyme or reason to when these were produced or shipped can be made by the Serial No. still holds true!!

Another interesting observation I found concerning these Revolvers being referred to as "Banker Specials" is the fact that out of all of these 1 1/2" Barreled 38 Safety's only "One" was actually ordered by a Bank!! This was Serial No. 259795 that was ordered by the Springfield National Bank of Springfield,Mass. & shipped to Carlisle Hardware of Springfield,Mass. on Feb.18th,1934!! It is also One of only Two 1 1/2" Barreled 38 Safety's that are known to exist as a Blued Revolver!! How about that!! So the Mystery Question is still out there!! How did the "Banker Specials" Nickname come to be?? Maybe Mike Maher will be back with an answer!!

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Masterpiece

Bushmaster,

I wish there was more to tell you about their history,but if you read my last post asking how these came to be known as "Banker Specials",you'll see that only One out of all of them I have documentation on was actually ordered by a Bank!! Hopefully someone else will come forward with more info in regards to your question to shed more light on the subject for you!! Sorry!!

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Masterpiece

I don't have much to add, other than that I would love to own that little gun, regardless of pedigree. Too bad the price is outrageous.

Here's my take on the Bankers Special name. It comes from...Colt. Which really did have a Bankers Special.





I have heard "Bankers Special" and "Shopkeeper" used to refer to guns which have a shorter than normal barrel, and lack an ejector rod and housing in the case of a SAA, but are in fact neither of these special models.

This is a very interesting thread. I have had a passion for Special Order Safety Hammerless revolvers for some time and I'm always looking for info on more of them.
The four 32 ultra short barrels that I have looked at ranged from the 57xxx serial number range to #188xxx. The last one shipped in 1911.
The four 1 1/2 inch 38 Safetys that I have examined range from serial # 247xxx to serial # 259xxx. That puts them from about 1921 to 1931.
#258595 was the other blue one. It shipped to a hardware store in WV in 1929. Roy Jinks once told me that the majority of ultra short barrel 38 Safetys that he has written letters for were shipped to WV.
The single 1 5/8 inch length safety that I know of that he has lettered went to a liquor store owner in Philadelphia in 1923. His son said that he used it to walk to a bank a few blocks away to make his after hours cash drops. I suppose that makes it a bankers special of sorts.
Special order barrel length Safetys are quite rare, and they're certainly not easy to find. I suspect that it will be a few years before the one that started this discussion brings $7500, but it will some day. The question is, how long will it take.

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Mark Connot

Hi Mark,

If the 1 5/8" Barreled 38 Safety you're referring is Serial No.'d 247084,it shipped to E.K.Tryon Co. in Phila.Pa. on Feb.14th,1923!! Truthfully,I've never heard of E.K.Tryon being called a Liquor Store,especially during the Prohibition Era,but they were a Firearms Distributor & General Hardware Store that I have seen quite a few Smith & Wesson Revolvers in Pa. being shipped to in the Early 1900's!! Personally,I have an Very Early "Bekeart" Serial No.Range 22/32 Heavy Frame Target shipped to them on Aug.1st,1911 & was the 707th one produced!! I believe they were more of an All-Purpose kind of Store selling a little bit of everything & I suppose that would have included Liquor & Spirits prior to Prohibition,and possibly after,as they were in business for quite some time after Prohibiton was repealed!! Also,if your story plays out,he would most likely have needed the Revolver to make it to the Bank & back alive!! There were "Gangsters" in Phila. too!! Ha!Ha!

You're also correct as to the majority of these Ultra Short-Barreled Revolvers being shipped to West Virginia Destinations!! In fact,a Single Order for 4 of the Total of the 1 1/2" Barreled 38's known to exist,were shipped in Identical Configurations to West Virginia in April of 1927!! I wonder what the mystery lurking behind the fascination for these in West Virginia was?? I'm sure it would be an interesting story to hear!!

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Masterpiece

{QUOTE}:
Here's my take on the Bankers Special name. It comes from...Colt. Which really did have a Bankers Special.


Dragon,

I thought of this too,but the fact remains that the Short-Barreled Smith's were being produced for some time prior to Colt introducing their "Banker Special" Model in 1928!! Who copied who?? So the S&W "Banker Special" mystery continues!! Which came first,the "Chicken or the Egg"???

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Masterpiece

It's not a mystery, I think the name has just been applied more recently by collectors. It's just like a Bicycle Gun. Are 2" special order Safety Hammerless models marked "Bicycle Gun"? No. Did S&W ever refer to it as a Bicycle Gun? Not that I know of. Yet people commonly call them Bicycle Guns. I think the same thing has happened with the Bankers Specials.

Did S&W ever officially refer to this gun as a "Bankers Special"? Again I'm not absolutely certain on this, but if they did not then the name has no importance except to modern collector's who have applied it.

Dragon,

I'm sure that's most likely the case & was something that caught on after Colt decided to name theirs!! I have never known S&W refer the nomenclature "Bicycle Revolver or Banker Special" to be their own!! I know years back when I collected the Safety's,I had never heard the term "Banker Special" mentioned!! Although,I do know the 2" Safety's have been referred to as "Bicycle" Revolvers for many years!! This reference came from the fact that they were small & easily carried when riding bicycles that were in abundance in the Late 1800's & Early 1900's when they first started showing up!!

Semi-Retraction!!
I knew there was a S&W "Bicycle" Revolver!! Ha! Ha! Thanks,Mark!!

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Masterpiece

In the 1900/1901 Smith & Wesson catalog the first 2 inch 32 Safety Hammerless that was offered as a catalog item was called the Bicycle Safety in the catalog. It had it's own 2 page spread with picture. It was located in the catalog right after the regular 32 and 38 Safety Hammerless pages. It was offered as a bicycle gun for about 10 years. I don't believe the 2 inch 38 was ever called a bicycle gun by S&W. It was offered at a much later date in the catalogs. About half of the 2 inch 38s sold were sold in the serial number range of the last 1000 38 Safetys sold. That was long after the date that S&W ended the manufacture of 32 Safetys.
You are right Masterpiece the 1 5/8 inch gun I referred to was ordered by the original owner through the hard ware store. And according to the story he owned a speak easy. This is all hear say as I got the information through the man who sold the gun for the original owners son. I asked him to contact the son and have him write the information down but I never heard from him again. I owned the gun a long time ago and traded it to Bill Maier. That is a transaction that I have regretted since the day it happened.

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Mark Connot

What an interesting area within the larger Safety Hammerless family.

Iver Johnson and others of course referred to their .32 Calibre 'Snubby' Revolvers as 'Bicycle' Models, but I do not remember now what Iver Johnson called their .38 S&W Calibre Model.

The West Virginia mystery m-i-g-h-t be as simple as that someone in that area got one, and, showing it off to others, inspired them to want, and, to order or have ordered for them, models of the same kind!


I have long thought that S & W ought to have offered their 'M&P' in a 2 Inch Barrel Option, right from the get-go in 1899, or at least soon after.

Why it took them till 1934 or so to do so, I will never understand...and by then of course, the Colt Police Positive 2 Inch, and, soon after, the 'Detective Special' as such, were becoming very popular.

Really, a 2 Inch .38 Special variant of the S&W - oh heck, now I forgot what it is called - uhhhh, the five shot Hand Ejector usually seen in .38 S&W Calibre - Revolver would have been an interesting possibility also, for them to have offered.

I have carried a 1930s 2 Inch 'M&P' and compared to the Colt 2 Inch Police Positive or Detective Special, one does feel the heavier weight of the S&W, and, I myself do not mind, but I can see how some would.

The S&W 'M&P' fits my Hand a lot better though, and is more comfortable to shoot for me.

Three pages and not a single photo!

Hi Mark,

You know I knew that,but when you haven't collected these for a while things like that tend to slip your mind!! Actually,I went into my Catalogs & found the Bicycle Revolvers were listed even earlier than 1900 as you mentioned!! The Large 1899 Catalog lists them on Page 32 quite a few pages away from where the 32 & 38 Hammerless Safety's are listed!! It is not a 2-Page Spread,but it does show it Pictured with the 2" Barrel & a Detailed Description of the Revolver itself!! It also has this notation(Quote)~This Arm has all the advantages of our Safety Hammerless and cannot be accidentally discharged. It's lightweight and convienient size make it an ideal arm for wheelmen!~(End Quote) So I guess this means I'll have to retract my own statement that I didn't remember these being offered by S&W by name!! Thanks!! I'll know better next time to look before I open my big mouth & trust my memory!! You know now that I think about it,I have been noticing that it isn't as sharp as it used to be!! Does that mean I'm getting old??

Also,thanks for the confirmation about the 1 5/8" Safety!! I thought for a minute there may have been a multiple shipment of them that went to E.K.Tryon as well like the 4 West Virginia Revolvers were!! The Speak Easy Story makes better sense as well!! A more "Gangsterish" twist to the story that way too!! Is there such a word as "Gangsterish"?? Sounds good even if there isn't!!

I know what you mean when you said you regretted the day you traded it off to Bill!! My thoughts were the same after I sold and/or traded off my Safety's to expand my collection into other Smith's that I had found more interest in!! I really wish I would have held onto a few of the more interesting one's!! Especially since I've found that Roy's Research gives a much more detailed description now compared to then!! It seems like after the Late Seventies & Early Eighties there must have been alot of Factory Records found that provided more info on these!! Reason being,most of the Letters I had contained No Specifics such as (Barrel Length,Finish,Stocks,Etc.) just a Shipping Date & Destination!! Have you run across the same on Revolvers that were Lettered this Early?? Well,in any case,what's done is done!! I found them a good home at the time & I know a few of them filtered down into Bill Maier's Collection & the rest went into other Safety Hammerless Collections in the S&W Collectors Community!!

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Masterpiece

Hi Steve,

Thanks!! I would have,but mine have been gone for years & are nothing more than memories now!! Nice Revolvers by the way!!

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Masterpiece

Not the same, I know, but...just for fun -

.38 Calibre...




( Finish had curdley Oil on it )


And, what the heck, Mr. Iver Johnson, also in .38 S&W -





Good! Now we have some more pictures!

I resisted Bill's offers on my 2 1/4" but it wasn't easy. I often kidded him as we both pronounced our names the same but one of us didn't know how to spell it correctly. Mike #283

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Mike Maher #283