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12-01-2011, 11:22 AM
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looking for help for a s&w .44
Hello ,
I live in Belgium and have a ( i think ? ) a 1873 s&w russian .44 .
It has as markings on the bottom of the grip : 1869 and
17899 .
No markings on the side of the pistol .I heard that copys were made in europe and am wondering if this is one .
Any help is welcome .
Pat
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12-01-2011, 12:16 PM
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You have what looks like a 2nd Model Russian. The only marks other than on the butt are on the top of the barrel. You will find either Cyrillic or English markings stating the maker, patent dates, and if English, a marking at the end of the single line stating "Russian Model"
It certainly looks like a S&W, since almost all copies are oddly shaped and do not carry the exact profile of the S&W Russian.
Check the top of the barrel to see if you can make out any stampings.
The 1869 date is puzzling, since most had 1874 stamped on the butt above the serial number and these revolvers were not made in 1869. If it is a copy, it is a one of the few that truly copy the original 2nd Model.
Last edited by glowe; 12-01-2011 at 11:28 PM.
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12-01-2011, 11:04 PM
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If this gun is a S&W, it's in the wrong serial range to have a "Russian Model" stamping on the barrel rib. The 1869 date stamp on the butt is puzzling and would indicate the gun is a possible copy, allbeit a very good one. Is 17899 stamped on the back of the right grip panel? What's stamped on the barrel rib? Ed.
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12-03-2011, 07:29 AM
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I have no markings on the barrel but on the right grip panel i can see ,
1127 and under it 47B4
Under the barrel there seems to be a small B stamped on the flat part of the barrel .
Could this be belgium made ?
thanks for your replies ,
Pat
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12-03-2011, 09:13 AM
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Without any top barrel markings or signs that they were removed, you may well have a very good copy. As for where is was made is anybodies guess. Usually Belgium guns have the oval "ELG" stamp somewhere on the gun, so maybe made somewhere else.
I have a copy of a 44DA and it has the standard oval Belgium stampings on the gun. Not nearly as well done as yours.
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12-05-2011, 01:53 PM
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I agree with Glowe, it's a nice copy, probably European made. Ed.
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01-14-2012, 10:16 AM
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Well looks like i did not open my eyes the way i should !
there are worn markings on top of the barrel and seems to be russian alphabet but cant truly read all of it .Does anyone happen to have a pic of what t should read more or less ?
Thanks for the help by the way ,
respects
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01-14-2012, 03:34 PM
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Photos of the Russian markings on the top of the barrel rib on S&Ws, and on copies made by the Russian arsenals ( Tula,etc.) and by Ludwig Loewe Co. in Berlin, are shown is the "Standard catalog of Smith & Wessons, 3rd, edit, by Supica & Nahas, and in "Smith & Wesson 1847-1945" by Neal & Jinks. Your gun is probably one of the Tula or Loewe guns. Ed.
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01-14-2012, 04:17 PM
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Try these:
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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446
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01-16-2012, 08:02 AM
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The markings are the same on mine as the first markings of the 3 .The top one that is .I can only identify the first few words .
That means its a S&W russian ?
Thanks Dean by the way
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01-16-2012, 08:09 AM
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I also wonder why i have on the botom of the but 1869 and the numbers 17899 stamped if the were not made in1869 ?
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01-16-2012, 08:22 AM
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It seems to be in a very good condition and all mechanical parts are working like its new . Anyone have a idea what this might be worth ?
But like i see on the but that 1869 is stamped and 17899 it makes me wonder if its a real one since see they did not make them in 1869.
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01-16-2012, 09:12 AM
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By the way it does seem too be a 2 model but on the bottom of the but there is no sighn of ever being a ring on it .The bl is 7 inch .
My respects
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01-16-2012, 10:42 AM
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The first line is the standard Russian marking. This is usually followed by the Russian Imperial Eagle stamping. See if you can make it out back towards the topstrap.
Here is the problem, the Russian Second Model did not come out until 1873, but yours is stamped 1869??. On the other hand, there was a serial number range for one of the contracts was 1 to 20000, so yours falls into that range. Yours is also correct in terms of the barrel stamp if there is NOT a serial number at the end of the Russian stampings, since the serial numbr was added in the higher serial number range. Your hammer design is also a match to the Second Model, which is usually not done well in the copies.
Jury is still out on whether you have the real thing or a copy, but I am once again leaning to the real thing. Maybe someone else can comment on the 1869 butt stamp.
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01-16-2012, 11:20 AM
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According to Neal & Jinks, the first marking is the standard S&W marking found on the 2nd and 3rd Model Russians. The second marking is on Tula made guns and the third is from the Ludwig & Lowe examples.
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01-17-2012, 06:31 AM
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i checked again and it seems to be identical from the first pic on top untill the last letters AbAb .The last word and numbers dont seem to be there .Instead there seem to be punch marks .I did find 4 numbers under the spring on top of the barrel like on this pic were the 2 dots are marked .
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01-17-2012, 06:32 AM
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And those N are : 2501
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01-17-2012, 07:49 AM
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a small "B" on the barrel flat on the underside near the hinge .
Daniel B. Wesson ???? Similar markings were placed on Smith & Wesson revolvers made for the Russian Government and S&W clearly sold some commercial revolvers made from parts that were intended for the Russian contracts .I also have no proof of ever having a ring at the end of the bottom of the but and yet they all seem to have one ?
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01-17-2012, 08:15 AM
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Smith & Wesson Model 3, it was introduced around 1869.
looks identical as mine but no ring on the but .Could mine be one of the first ones built for Russia maybe ?
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01-17-2012, 09:57 AM
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The Second Model was introduced in 1873, not 1869. The First Model American was introduced in 1870, and the First Model Russian was introduced in 1871. Both the early models had a round back frame and no trigger spur.
On later S&Ws, the B was used to indicate Blued, versus N for nickel. The back of the cylinder on your gun looks like nickel.
You may have a gun that was put together with both blued and nickeled parts. Probably not uncommon in Russia to take parts to make up a working gun.
Your gun probably needs to be inspected closely by a dedicated S&W Model 3 expert to get the final word on authenticity.
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01-17-2012, 03:28 PM
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I can always try but i must say i dont know many S&W experts where i live in Belgium . But many thanks for your reply .
My respects
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01-17-2012, 04:13 PM
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Can you post a photograph of the butt showing the 1869 and 17899 markings?
The letters on the barrel rib that you describe as AbAb are actually the last letters of the Russian spelling of "Springfield" -- ЛЪДЪ. (I hope that shows up properly on everybody's screen; it looks right on mine. I used the Windows "character map" utility to produce them in the Cyrillic alphabet.) The following letters that seem to be missing from yours are the Russian Spelling of "America" and, apparently, a six digit number. I don't know enough about Russian models to know if this would be a second stamping of the serial number to keep separate large pieces of a single revolver properly associated.
I agree with the suggestion above that this is a gun assembled from pieces of other Second Model Russian revolvers. Perhaps numbers were erased or added to keep track of guns built from separate parts. (I know: wild speculation.)
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01-18-2012, 01:49 PM
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By the way that is not a pick off my cylinder . Sorry about that ,mine is blued .
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01-18-2012, 01:55 PM
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The spelling you showed is what i have on mine i just have not the rest ( america ) and the numbers just a few dot markings .I will try to take a clear pick of the butt .
By the way david you would not happen to be dave wilson from costa mesa by any chance ?that was a old budy of mine in the old days when i lived in California .
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01-19-2012, 09:46 AM
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I hope this pic is clear enough .
Thanks for all the help
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01-19-2012, 11:34 AM
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Just speculation, but could it be possible that this is an "international" parts gun?
S&W barrel/cylinder and a Tula or Ludwig/Lowe frame??
However I can't explain the lack of a lanyard ring.
What is the mark on the bottom of the right grip panel? (I can't quite make it out..)
Interesting gun........
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01-19-2012, 12:01 PM
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It looks like a R or H
And the butt has 17899 and the cylinder also
Last edited by Patsup2; 01-19-2012 at 12:10 PM.
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01-19-2012, 02:12 PM
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Maybe the ones with the detachable shoulder stoks had no rings on the butt ? I found on on this site and they have lots of info on these guns . My serial num seem to fit in this range of guns and it was also comen that after the cyrrilic markings that there was no serial num on the barrel .
Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson - Jim Supica, Richard Nahas - Google Boeken
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01-25-2012, 10:56 AM
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If i understand this artical it means that they did make this model in 1869 but with english markings till Aug 69 ?
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01-25-2012, 11:40 AM
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Patent dates and manufacture dates really don't have any commonality other that you should never see a manufacture date that is earlier than the patent date. The other way around is normal. It just means that there is some feature of the gun that was patented in 1869 and is being used on the current model.
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01-25-2012, 01:16 PM
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Deadin is correct, patent dates always preceed the manufacture date of any firearm. In this case as stated before, the 1869 stamp on the butt of your revolver is bogus, because the first year the Second Model Russian was manufactured was 1873 - that is a fact that adds more speculation as to the possibility that the whole revolver is a European copy.
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01-25-2012, 03:42 PM
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Ok then ,thank you all for the help again . I found a person that sells books about these guns here in Belgium and we should be together in a weeks time so that he can check out the gun . I will post a thread to let you know what he thinks of it .
My respects ,
Pat
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01-26-2012, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patsup2
The spelling you showed is what i have on mine i just have not the rest ( america ) and the numbers just a few dot markings .I will try to take a clear pick of the butt .
By the way david you would not happen to be dave wilson from costa mesa by any chance ?that was a old budy of mine in the old days when i lived in California .
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Sorry I missed this or would have replied before. I did work in Costa Mesa for several years (1998-2008) but I'm not the DW you mentioned. There are several David Wilsons in Orange County, and we keep stumbling over one another.
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02-09-2012, 06:13 AM
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Ok ,
I now know what my gun is . A few people were right here .
Its the real thing but never made it to Russia.Was sold on the comercial market but also has a few small parts that are not from the same gun .
Thanks for all te help by the way .
Respect
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03-26-2015, 04:42 AM
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was able to read the markings
Now that i was able to read all the markings i can say its exactly the same as the top pic of the barrel rib markings .
any response is welcome .
Still wondering why its stamped 1869 on the but ?
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03-27-2015, 03:53 PM
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Not an expert at all,but sometimes a number that one thinks is a date,1869 in this case,isn't a date at all,but rather an inventory number.
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03-28-2015, 03:51 PM
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this is probably right and like i thought its a true s&w
thanks for your input .I also believe now that its what it seems to be ,
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