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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 02-05-2013, 08:14 AM
hpyglf hpyglf is offline
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Do you know that Rollin White had three patents with the bored through cylinder, all from April 1855? He had the original one, but then had two other patents granted on the same date reissued to include the bored through cylinder claim.

That most of all explains the falling out between White and SW as patent expiration approached. SW had only rights to one of the patents, and undoubtedly White held it over their head that they'd need all three.

Such a reissuance, by the way, was wholly inappropriate as they extended the scope of those patents, something for which reissuance is not intended.

Has anyone studied the case of White v. Ethan Allen?

I read somewhere that White offered the patent first to Sam Colt. I have not seen support for this notion anywhere except in Parsons book, and for that (strictly from memory, I believe it's at about p. 4) Parsons provides no citation. He says White so testified, but in the testimony of White v. Allen he says he kept it a secret from Colt.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:57 PM
johngross johngross is offline
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Originally Posted by hpyglf View Post
I read somewhere that White offered the patent first to Sam Colt. I have not seen support for this notion anywhere except in Parsons book, and for that (strictly from memory, I believe it's at about p. 4) Parsons provides no citation. He says White so testified, but in the testimony of White v. Allen he says he kept it a secret from Colt.

My understanding of Parson's (pages 42-44) is the following.

While working at Colt's White purchased a Colt revolver for his experiment. He did keep it a secret from Colt while employed there, out of concern for his job and that of his brothers (who were also employed at Colt's). White wrote that if Col. Colt knew he was working on improvements for a repeating pistol that "he and his brothers would be discharged."

After White left Colt's and secured his patents, he "endeavored to make some arrangement with Col. Colt to manufacture arms on the plan of his said inventions, but without success."

It appears to me that Parson's source for this is footnote 2 on page 219, Attached to Petition to Commissioner of Patents for Renewal of Patent No. 12.648 of April 3, 1855, on file in the Patent Office.

John Gross
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:09 AM
hpyglf hpyglf is offline
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John, that is very helpful. It was very fortunate for White that Colt was dead by the time of the 1863 case. Actually, Rollin White began his experiments not by buying a revolver from the factory, but by taking "refuse" cylinders. This from his testimony in White v. Allen. I am not a factory maven, but I can imagine that imperfect cylinders would be "scrap", not "refuse". The former has value, the latter none. In other words, White stole scrap materials to begin his experiments, so-called.

He gave the story about Colt firing anyone found to be fooling around with pistol design is absolutely bogus. White told that story in order to back date the date of invention so that it preceded the filing of a certain foreign patent which appeared several years before White's filing. He had to explain why his invention was prior in time, even if his filing was not. White's story is quite implausible. Where'd he get the idea to backdate to a specific date? I do note that White's attorney in the case, Charles Keller, was not restrained by scruples.

As for working out a deal with Colt, we have only White's word and in the application, to which you kindly drew my attention, subject to cross examination. Now, it makes sense he would have offered it to Colt. And it makes just as much sense that Colt would have laughed him out of the office.

White's patent was wholly preposterous and impractical. It would blow up, just as Colt's early experiments with chambers open at both ends blew up. The breechloading of firearms was hardly a new concept, it had been around only for a couple of centuries. The problem was always with communication of fire, that is having all the chambers go off at once. Well, until the advent of the metallic cartridge no one had a practical answer. White's solution was to plug the chambers at the rear with leather. That was not practical either.

In White v. Allen, Allen had two fine third party expert witnesses, both of whom said of the White design that it was a disaster. White had one expert who said the thing worked like a charm each and every time. That expert was Daniel Wesson. Hmmm.

White prevailed in that case in which the opinion of the court is laden with specious reasoning and some rather bizarre holdings. That was to be expected given the presiding judge, Nathan Clifford, and the Allen's counsel, Benjamin Curtis. Curtis had been on the Supreme Court and became an arch enemy of Chief Justice Taney. Curtis resigned from the court and was replaced by a staunch Taney ally, Nathan Clifford. When in White v. Allen Clifford got Curtis before him, Curtis's client (Ethan Allen) didn't have a chance.

The application for patent renewal was turned down. What ensued in Congress was a battle for bill requiring a rehearing. That bill passed handily, but Grant vetoed it and the veto was sustained.

The patent renewal hearing was to be heard in the Federal Court House in Manhattan. On the eve of the hearing the courthouse was broken into, and the only thing taken were the models and papers of Rollin White. I won't go on, but somehow the break-in just did not make it into any newspaper. Whaddyaknow?

Last edited by handejector; 01-31-2022 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:11 AM
dogngun dogngun is offline
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A lawyer "not restrained by scruples..."

Just imagine....


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