Little help with a Model 1891

Thuer · #1 05-11-2016, 01:28 PM

I did post this revolver before. But I do need now.a little help with this model 1891 first year of production and with number 42. The number is everywhere on the right places so it is a OK revolver. It could be much an much better and do have an issue. The treath on the cilinderax is gonne. That is very strange becouse normaly it is in one piece with the cilinder ax. No it looks that there is some kind of ring is missing. Also the gas seal is a sepret ring and not attached to the cilinder. Can anyone tell me moer about those features. And is it possible to find a spare ring for the ax. ( OK small to not existing chance but have to ask). Sorry for my bad English.

nicky4968 · #2 05-11-2016, 01:39 PM

I can't help with your revolver.
But, first, you are always welcome here.
Second, your English is much better than you think. We would call it "invented spelling," something practiced by Colonel Colt, himself.

opoefc · #3 05-11-2016, 02:03 PM

I'm guessing that at sometime in the past, after the gun left S&W, someone has tried to modify the gun for whatever reason and for now unknown purposes. Can you post photos of the extractor? Is there a lot of "end shake" to the cylinder? ( Does it move back and forth any when the barrel is latched to the frame? ) Ed.

glowe · #4 05-11-2016, 06:50 PM

It is likely that the front ring of the cylinder was damaged or someone wanted to do some experimental alterations. I will bet that the separate ring is not a factory part and was added to provide the right cylinder gap so the gun could function. The cylinder for the Model 1891 is the same as used in the 38 DA revolvers that went back to the early 1880s and all had integral front extension rings on their cylinder.

Thuer · #5 05-15-2016, 10:28 AM

I tryed to fit the cilinder of the model 1891 on the cilinderax of the double action model even to the hammerless safety models. It would not fit. You can place the cilinder of the model 1891 on those revolvers but it looks like you can't make a full turn on those axes. So the cilinder of the model 1891 is somewhat different.

model3sw · #6 05-15-2016, 11:58 AM

IIRC, the ring is simply press fit into the cylinder. If you look at the axis shaft you will see a shiny spot where the ring has been riding back and forth instead of a stationary position. Likely it is just worn, therefore "loose" not remaining in the position it was originally pressed in to fit tightly. I've seen this same condition in many, well used or worn top break revolvers especially the older Model 3s. Notorious in the 1st model Schofield where the axis shaft as a machined split in it (corrected in the 2nd model Schofield). In the 1st model Schofield if the axis shaft loosens (even just a little) it affects the timing and lock up usually severing the ring from the cylinder as yours appears to be.

Any of you old timers that have actually repaired these old revolvers, I welcome your input.

This is one of the very few revolvers I don't own and rarely encounter. The few I have encountered in the past 40 years have been in terrible condition, thus, chose not to purchase. I am looking for a higher condition 1891 Revolver, (3rd model single action .38) to accompany my 1891 single shots, and an assortment of single shot barrels in various calibers I acquired over the years. I never tried to swap a later barrel and cylinder on to the 1891 single shots even though the single shots have all the exact same mechanics of the revolver.

Does anyone know, for sure, if the 1st model DA .38 barrel and cylinder (or barrel and cylinder from another model) will interchange to the 1891, 1st model single shot ?

Also see: Why is the 38 Smith & Wesson Single Action, 3rd Model (Model of 1891) So Scarce?

At some later time S&W may have incorporated that ring into the machining of the cylinder, however, (if I am correct) this one was a separate part that was pressed in to place, actually adjusting the tolerances by how far the ring is pressed in or protrudes from the cylinder. Over the years that ring wears out, especially in instances where the revolver was in service for many years and may also this condition could be accelerated if shot with incorrectly loaded smokeless ammo.

Is your axis shaft tight or is it a bit loose ? I've seen old period repairs were the housing that the axis shaft screws in to, welded (as an attempted repair). I have a 1st model American with that weld repair as I described and have seen a few others in the past 40 years.

You may have to get a new ring made by a good local machinist or find another cylinder but then you'd give up the matching number on the cylinder.

Even though the condition of your revolver is not perfect, it is a scarce revolver. I feel it would be worth a professional, proper, repair.

glowe · #7 05-15-2016, 05:53 PM

Good point Sal. I never saw anywhere a press fit collar listed separate from the cylinder, but it makes sense, since it would be very costly produce a cylinder and coller from one piece of steel.

I cannot find one speck of difference between a 38 DA cylinder/barrel assembly and one from a 38 SA, except for the barrel stamping. Every part is identical, but all are hand fitted in final assembly, so a barrel assembly are not always a drop-in swap. I just grabbed a parts gun and my target 38 SA to compare. The photos show that the 38 SA barrel will fit the frame of my 38 SA frame, but will not quite lock into place with the 38 SA barrel. The 38 DA barrel will, however, drops into the 38 SA frame and function perfectly.

Thuer · #8 05-16-2016, 06:05 AM

Thanks for the good info model3sw.