Antique S&W cardboard gun boxes??????

Shipped from Factory to ???

I just finished a 20 min search of Factory letters and confirmed “ Guns shipped From the factory” directly to several Distributors including: Hartley & Graham ; Hibbard, Spencer & Bartlett, Chicago; Schoverly, Daley & Gales, etc. Didn’t take much effort to find this factory documented evidence. Even found one That shipped to San Francisco, from the factory!

Definitely the vast number of letters I glanced at went to M Robinson but I think they were no way involved with these other examples shipped directly from the factory to other listed Major Distributors so that much at least we can confirm.

M. Robinson must have had a huge clientele of steady customers that represented both small shops and larger retailers but other larger Major Distributors based on These factory Letters obviously did not need to go through them to obtain volumes of guns.

*** Also, if you look closely at the Distributor photos I posted? They are very competitive prices. Some claiming the best price available. Doesn’t seem possible to me that they could purchase guns from a Distributor in the same town ( New York) and still maintain a profit margin? Only! If they purchased directly from the factory.

**** Nice collection Books. I noticed you also have different instruction labels in your boxes as well!

Murph

More letters

Here are a couple more letters.


Murph

Public Forum

Mike,
This is a public Forum. There is nothing private about it. Copyright is only applicable to published And copyrighted material.

Look at the top of your browser where it says “ Not Secure”. I’m not selling any of this so there is NO violation. It’s a cut and paste world.
The photos I posted from 1800’s Distributor catalogs are Free Market material.
I’ve done my homework.
It’s up to you personally if you want to post photos of your collection, boxes, letters, etc.
Best practice is to block out personal information and I don’t often post serial numbers but I have posted some of my factory letters to share.
You decide.


Murph

Daunting Task

You’ve got your work cut out for you Mike.

I’d start with all the Major Auction Houses that post Factory Letters on their websites included with the sale of the relevant gun of course, before you pursue the various gun sites that openly photo and post Factory letters ( for sale!). With the matching gun of course. I’m not sure they would want to participate? Daunting task.

Then you would have to address all of those violators who dare to make copies of their factory letters and sell them with the matching gun as an extra copy? Another daunting task.

Realistically though it’s great for business! Posting factory letters is free publicity for the Historical Foundation. Generates interest and in my opinion it stimulates business! The desire to obtain a factory historical letter is a win/win for all of us.

Oh and the reference you posted unfortunately is obsolete. When you are published you receive updates regarding copyright issues and the Supreme Court just screwed over authors regarding copyright so you might want to refer to a more updated reference.
Who knows though, tomorrow things might change yet again. Sort of like gun laws in California. You have to read them hourly to stay up to date!

Murph

Back to the boxes

Anyway,
I’ll post more photos when my boxes arrive to see if there are any obvious differences.
I thought this would be a fun subject to discuss. I honestly appreciate all those members who have posted photos of their boxes and provided positive input with an open mind.
In my opinion, which seems applicable to only the bullied on this forum, That’s how we learn and enjoy the hobby by gathering information and sharing what we’ve seen and experienced.

Murph

Actually, since the requester paid for the letter to be written, it would be deemed a "work-for-hire". Copyright then resides in the requester, not Roy.

Secondly, if they're being copied (published) for educational purposes-as is the case here, and not for economic gain, that falls under the "fair use" doctrine.

No worries, post away.

Disclaimer: IP lawyer, but not YOUR IP lawyer.

Distributor boxes!

One of my boxes showed up today and believe it or not it is yet another box that I have never seen or documented before.
I’ve now documented 5 different Orange labels For the 38 TB that I have found so far. FIVE!!!
I also have started to look closer at the “ Instructions” NONE of them is identical! NONE! They are ALL different! The difference can be seen if you look closely! They are copying instructions from another box and adding their own style of format! Even the wording is different!
Some of the instructions are actually ink stamped directly to the pasteboard. Some are not! They are stamped onto paper and the paper is then glued to the pasteboard like a label!
So, I’m really believing that these early boxes are Distributor boxes made up by their individual 3rd party contractor/ box maker!
There are way too many variations for one caliber Top Break box!
Check out just a few Variations of the Orange label 38cal box!
I’m also doing a serial number comparative to see if there is any pattern to early/ Late production.

Murph

If I were to guess, I still think it unlikely that the distributors had boxes manufactured on their behalf. I believe the variations you are seeing are because different vendors provided boxes to Smith & Wesson directly at various times, one of these vendors being C C Taylor & Co.

Smith & Wesson was in the revolver business, and their goal was to produce revolvers in economical fashion and ship to a distributor in a functional box that prevented damage in transit. Smith & Wesson would therefore have outsourced this as locally as possible. With companies such as C C Taylor & Co., this company being also located in Springfield. Given that there were many factories in the Connecticut River valley in that era, other vendors would have been locally sourced.

Also, a distributor is in the retail business, purchasing at a wholesale rate and selling at retail. Manufacturing boxes or paying to have them manufactured would have impacted the bottom line. The revolver shipped safely from Smith & Wesson in its original cardboard box, it could ship again in the same. The same is true today. If you buy a pair of Nike sneakers, they would have shipped from the manufacturer in boxes assembled in the factory but manufactured elsewhere. It's possible multiple manufacturers produce these boxes over time, the only difference being that uniform specifications exist today and could be provided instantly by e-mail. Whereas in the 1870's such uniformity didn't exist and communication was not so instant. Probably Smith & Wesson provided the dimensions of a cloth covered cardboard box desired and information desired on the label and, from this, the manufacturer created the box they envisioned Smith & Wesson desired, everyone's vision varying to some degree. Hence, the variations you are seeing today.

Just because there are variations in the boxes doesn’t mean different manufacturers. I worked a factory job during college and manufacturing changes can happen on a dime. If you can no longer source a certain material you find the next best option. If you think up a cheaper or better way to make something changes can happen quickly.

reddog81 said:

Just because there are variations in the boxes doesn’t mean different manufacturers. I worked a factory job during college and manufacturing changes can happen on a dime. If you can no longer source a certain material you find the next best option. If you think up a cheaper or better way to make something changes can happen quickly.

Click to expand...

Right! That's very plausible and maybe C C Taylor & Co manufactured all boxes in this era and this explains the variation.

Theory vs fact

Look Gents,
This is just my method of research. As unorthodox as it is? It keeps me motivated to continue the search. All I am doing is "Thinking out loud"... What we need is more physical evidence. What we need in my view is more information about the boxes. We need members to look on the bottom of their boxes and share what numbers they see as compared to what type box they have.

I think with the box evidence that has been gathered by the forum we have collectively proven that there are several type of boxes. I mean several!! I didn't know that did you?? I could easily be dead wrong on my opinion of the origin of these boxes but we need more proof!!

Right or wrong doesn't mean squat to me. The information does! To prove me wrong we need serial number sequence on the bottom of the boxes to see if "ONLY" a specific serial number range is seen on a specific type of box. That would support a possible transition took place. Of course since guns were not shipped in serial number sequence one can argue that the serial numbers prove nothing? BS..If I see a 4th type 38 in a specific Orange label box and a 2nd type in the same box? That absolutely proves something! That proves that there is no pattern to the boxes. That does not support the Factory boxed origin. The only evidence that would support a factory origin in my view is a pattern. Otherwise we are looking at the Distributors. A lot of them!

I mean after all, we don't even know which model came in which box? I'm pretty sure at this point that the early Black label boxes with a very dark color exterior were the earliest boxes for the 38 DA but I'm not sure yet.

The Orange label boxes of which there are "MANY" could represent the entire line of 38's from the 2nd model to 4th? I don't know but serial numbers would help greatly.

It's based on what you see and document. I also don't agree with boxing any item today with boxing an item for shipping in 1880 as any kind of comparison! Two totally different times and totally different methods used. I suppose that really is my root motivation. I still can't see these guns moving on a buckboard in 1880 "inside" these boxes and not blowing through the box!

I would never call a fair comparison shipping an item on a buck board on a dirt road vs the back of a UPS truck traveling on paved roads at freeway speeds with modern boxes and packing material. Modern boxing the item is also often form fitted into foam packing. NO comparison.

With an open mind try to imagine a metal gun bouncing around "inside" one of these boxes from New York to Chicago and not being damaged! Tell me how exactly that happened? We've already proven that guns were shipped directly to a Chicago Distributor directly from the Factory. Even to San Francisco....."INSIDE" one of these boxes???? I don't care how much straw or horse hair you use? That gun is blowing right through that box!

Murph

I haven't seen many of the boxes in person but have viewed many online. The boxes all seem very similar. Small incremental changes are to be expected and would indicate one manufacturer. If the boxes were made by a variety of distributors the differences would be much larger.

If the box is otherwise the same, the inclusion or exclusion of of a partition is a minute change and would without a doubt indicate the manufacturer just made a small change in their process. A wholly new manufacturer would result in many more variations than a partition.

Variations in the labels would also be expected over the years. It's quite possible they could go from one label to a different label and then back to the original label for a variety of reasons. I would also suspect that S&W applied the labels to the boxes rather than the box manufacturer, but that is just speculation and assumes the same boxes are used over a variety of guns.

If S&W did not box the guns before sending out to distributors, how do you think they left the factory?

Crates

I honestly believe that the only way these guns could have shipped safely in 1880 would have been crates. Packed individually in heavy paper on top of straw in sectional crates. It's a proven fact that the Schofields were shipped individually in crates. Packed tightly.

Also, the Major Distributor would not have appreciated damaged products! NOBODY appreciates damaged products.
I mean I have personally had antique guns shipped to me in modern boxes with foam packing by a seller who mailed the gun "INSIDE" the original cardboard box and even the Original Wood Distributor case and the gun "BLEW" right through the box!! Pissed me off! Even after I've told the seller "PLEASE" do not ship the gun inside the original box.

I can personally picture the boxes shipped separately from the guns from the Factory to the distributor? but then we have a problem with the serial numbers under the box? It's the only way that they would make it coast to coast undamaged! Mint condition.

The serial number issue is easily answered if the individual Distributor is actually marking the number under the box. The Distributor is already attributed as marking the box with various code numbers.

I've also seen many boxes that have NO EVIDENCE of a serial number ever being under the box!! Some are there but hard to read, some are only partial, some have absolutely nothing. If the factory is following a pattern? A pattern is what we should be seeing in my view. Factory work is all about patterns.

Also, regarding the partition issue. Its not just partition/ no partition. It's also different tools. The box without partitions are often found with a longer bore brush and with or without a small wrench. The box with partitions is found with a small bore brush and I've seen a few with a small oiler. This is a one year production gun for the Baby Russian.

I also agree with Mike Maher in that most of the boxes that survived are due in part that they have a picture label that makes them more attractive to keep and preserve.
The vast majority of boxes were destroyed, tossed out, damaged so badly over the years due to mold/mildew/etc that they were eventually thrown away. So finding variations of boxes for the Baby Russian manufactured for one year in 1876/77 would be a real sort of impossible task.

Why in one single year would Smith & Wesson manufacture two box types with two totally separate type tools? I can find "many" wood distributor boxes with separate tools/partitions/ labels/ key holes/ etc. Why not pasteboard boxes?????

**** You know that reminds me...If you are old enough? You'd remember going into that old store with the long wood counter and next to the old iron cash register is a long roll of brown paper that the store owner would actually wrap your item in before placing it into a bag for you to carry out of the store. I think wrapping items in heavy paper was very common back in that time period. Why not wrap the gun in heavy paper, then in straw in sectional crates for shipping? I can picture it myself. That method was common and it worked!

Murph

If these originally shipped in crates, I would expect a crate to show up from time to time at auction.

Or, do any members of this forum have an original shipping crate in their collection?

There are many theories being thrown around in this thread. The variations in the manufacture of the boxes of the same Model can be explained by the batch manufacturing process; 250 today, 400 next month. The differences in the printing can be explained by the handset type used by the printer at the time of printing. The type was in cases as individual letters, ligatures and dingbats. Everything was composed by selecting the individual letters and locking them in a Chase to be printed by letterpress. When the print job was complete; the chase was unlocked and the type was redistributed back into the case to be used on the next job. The Mergenthaler Linotype was not invented until July, 1886 which gave one the ability to repeat a project exactly as it was printed before or make as many letters as one wanted.

I have never heard of any evidence to back up the shipping of revolvers in wood crates but I'd bet the crate was part of the contract between the Army and S&W. The crates are only associated with the Schofield contract and a shipment of 50 Revolving Rifles sent to Australia (the ship sank). It would be too costly to crate a one-gun shipment and pasteboard boxes did not exist for the Revolving Rifle.

I do not believe the revolvers would normally blow through the pasteboard box. I believe the revolver would abrade the inside of the box if jostled and is often shown by the mark left by the barrel, butt and hammer. I also believe most shipments went by rail; not the Overland Express.

"The serial number issue is easily answered if the individual Distributor is actually marking the number under the box. The Distributor is already attributed as marking the box with various code numbers." The serial numbers were placed on the boxes by S&W as a way to control inventory and record sales. To help the dealers, S&W developed a 'telegraphic code' whereby the dealer could order a gun (or guns) using this shorthand and the dealer would not be charged for long telegraph messages. Often, that code is penciled on the bottom of the box to identify it to the dealer. These are not distributor codes.

Shipping in crates

I can go along with methods of printing boxes that Mike posted since he is retired from the printing business. Way over my head.

However, I still think the guns would have to have been shipped in crates over any distance more than say a mile and not inside these pasteboard boxes. This is also time specific. I'm not talking about the 1920's or later. That's if you actually expected them to reach their destination unmolested.

Also, I'd like to know the source evidence to prove that only the Factory did all that work since the Distributor could have easily performed those tasks mentioned without any worry of any type of damage to either the gun or box since you would eliminate any possibility of shipping damage if you had the box made right down the street. Received the guns in a secure crate, removed the guns, wrote the serial number on the box that you had made (Sometimes there is a number and sometimes there is not!) and placed the mint condition gun shipped securely in a crate into the mint box you had made down the street. Place both together on a shelf in the back storage room until ready to be moved to the floor for sale? That to me seems like a very secure method of business practice during that timeframe and in my mind the only way you can minimize the real potential for product damage in shipping. I'm not BS'in about those guns I received in the mail. They blew right through the pasteboard boxes and one Colt I had shipped by the seller inside the Walnut case packed extremely well in foam packing? but it was inside the walnut case. When I opened the box I saw the barrel sticking out of the side and the side of the wood case was blown open with that wood piece at the bottom of the cardboard shipping box.

I can dig out my pasteboard box that's damaged. I wasn't able to repair it. I fixed the wood case by gluing the side back on.

Look with an open mind at the Pasteboard boxes. The hammer rubs easily against the top of the box and would easily tear or rip a hole in transit , The barrel rubs easily against the side of the case and with the gun weight alone could punch through the box. "MINE DID"! and the grip frame rubs easily against the bottom of the case. All 3 of these rub points could represent significant damage in shipping.


Here are a few photos. Granted most are Military type weapons but these are the only crates that would survive in their original condition in my opinion since we are talking about "Millions" of military guns shipped for War efforts during multiple Wars vs a few thousand shipped at most for the Civilian Market. Often 50 or less at a time. Notice how secure they are in those crates? vs a cardboard box??

How exactly did Smith & Wesson ship 550 Baby Russians to Baltimore in July of 1877? All in pasteboard boxes? Or did they ship them in a crate? I'm believing the crate myself.

So in my view shipping guns would require a secure type shipping. Especially during that time frame. Pasteboard boxes in my view from a common sense standpoint are not secure. They are a joke in my opinion from a shipping standpoint. And keep in mind that we are "Time Specific" I'm only talking about the 1870's through the 1890's timeframe.

I can't understand how anyone would consider shipping a gun or guns in a cardboard/ pasteboard box and actually expect it to arrive without damage? Again, Time Specific. I'm not talking about a 44 Mag in a cardboard box with form fitting packing material.

Photo 1 is exactly how I am seeing those Baby Russians 200/50/550 guns shipped to Baltimore in 1876/77. Secure crate shipping for a long train ride.

*** I've actually seen more gun show damage to these boxes than anything else. Asking the seller...."Hey what happed to that box"? Seller looking upset said it was a long drive from Denver! I've also seen heavy gun damage also from long drives to gun shows for dealers. That's modern roads, modern cars, heavy damage. Dings, dents. Sometimes horrible!



Murph

Product Guarantee

I just looked through some of my Distributor Catalogs and found one thing common to all of the Major Distributors of the 1870's through 1890's.... Written Product Guarantees.

Turner & Ross said it best: " We wish our customers everywhere, in Maine or California, to have the same privileges and satisfaction in ordering by mail, that they would receive if they made their purchase over our counter"!

How exactly can you meet this strict quality of product guarantee if you ship a gun in a pasteboard box from New York to San Francisco. Over 2900 miles by old rail, then by freight wagon from the old rail yard that I am very familiar with, to the foot of Samson Street on miles of dirt roads and cobblestone streets yet still meet this product declaration?

I'd like to see it done!

Murph

I would think if crates were used to ship they would show up at auction now and again
Not the case.

Before I knew better, I purchased a few 1880 and 1881 production Smith & Wesson revolvers, and rode with them in my vehicle the better part of 100 miles, in original boxes over a century old. Therefore, more fragile cardboard than as new and also less stable than riding on railroad tracks. And I didn't have a problem.

A Smith & Wesson revolver in a cardboard box as new circa 1880 could ship in a new cardboard box across the country and the revolver would appear as new at its destination and the box would show little or no wear, in most cases. Maybe not 100% of the time, but nearly all of the time, barring catastrophic loss, which probably occurred on occasion.

"Written Product Guarantees.". "..to have the same privileges and satisfaction in ordering by mail..". I see no product guarantee; only that the mail order folks get to purchase the same items as "our counter" folks.

I find it irrelevant comparing the 1876 shipping of a revolver to the shipping at the present day. The 1876 revolvers did ship in pasteboard boxes and they arrived in acceptable condition. They may have been overpacked in larger boxes but there is NO evidence that they were ever packed in crates.

"Also, I'd like to know the source evidence to prove that only the Factory did all that work since the Distributor could have easily performed those tasks mentioned without any worry of any type of damage to either the gun or box since you would eliminate any possibility of shipping damage if you had the box made right down the street. Received the guns in a secure crate, removed the guns, wrote the serial number on the box that you had made (Sometimes there is a number and sometimes there is not!) and placed the mint condition gun shipped securely in a crate into the mint box you had made down the street.". I have no 'source evidence' only too many years collecting these revolvers. I can only ask: Who pays for that labor? That labor comes out of the profit. And when a new car is purchased at a dealer, do they expect to put the sparkplugs in or put the tires on the car? The dealer wants a complete product to sell and the consumer wants to bring it home complete.

The Military crate packaging photos are nice but has nothing to do with Smith & Wesson.

boxes

I'm not sure what I can added to this conversation but I think dealers had other means to customize boxes that were much cheaper that having some special color design etc. Here are a few pictures of dealer customized boxes. The box with the small oil bottle is for a 32 DA, the other box with the label is for a 38 DA. Using rubber stamps and stick on labels would have been much cheaper and easier for a dealer.

B. Mower #662