Bicycle gun smoothbore

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DM32

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I was looking at an 1870 Wesson Bicycle rifle/pistol (?) today that's been converted to a .38 centerfire smoothbore.
It's a single shot with a very long barrel and a metal shoulder stock. The barrel twists to the right for loading.
Was this commonly done to these guns with bad bores?
Can they be relined?
It's in great shape except that it's a centerfire smoothbore.
 
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Are you sure it was converted?
Flayderman shows an 1870 Wesson Pocket Shotgun in .38 and .44 shot.

Legal caution: Flayderman said as of 1997 it was still a SBS, not removed from NFA regulation.
 
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Actually, I'm not sure it was converted. I checked Flaydermans but couldn't find anything. Interesting. I'll check Flaydermans again.
 
Yep, Flaydermans page 270. Less than 100 made. I saw it at a Cabelas. I'll call them and ask about the NFA classification. Hopefully, they'll know if they're selling it.
Thanks.
 
Smooth bore guns that are antiques are still antiques, and not considered to be firearms. I was told that by the ATF some years ago when I came across a Model 1880 .38DA that was shipped as a smooth bore by the factory for use by a trick shot artist shooting glass balls in a stage show. Smooth bore post 1898 firearms require special dispensation by the ATf to avoid the tax stamp, as was done for Pres. Truman's friend, Congressman King for a .44 smoothbore revolver he owned.
 
I have to pay closer attention when I see a gun that interests me. I called Cabelas and they told me that the barrel is 24". I knew it was long, but not that long.
The salesman also told me that it doesn't look like it's been altered.
Time for a second look.
 
Flayderman says the pocket rifles were rimfire.
Last patent date on the pocket shotgun is Nov 11, 1862 which seems odd on an 1870 pattern gun.
 
Frank Wesson

Frank Wesson did make a 38 centerfire smoothbore. It was called the 1870 Pocket Shotgun. Extremely rare. I have a .44 rimfire Large frame Pocket Rifle lacking the stock unfortunately but its a two digit serial number. Less than 50 were made.

So, I don't think this .38cf is altered....Just extremely rare. It's a keeper in my book. Manufactured between 1870-75. Also listed as "likely" less than 50 made and split between the 44cf and 38cf. If it comes with a matching stock? WOW! is all I can say.

Here is the catch....If the barrel length is the typical 15" it was considered an illegal length barrel by the N.F.A. since it's less than 18"...So, you might want to look into that before you pull the trigger on getting it. It's absolutely stupid in my book but it is what it is.
I'm not sure if it is now exempt or not but I wouldn't want to take the chance. It is antique but its was on the list for years as being illegal. Even required at one point to be destroyed. Again, stupid but whatever...

Opps, just noticed it has a 24" barrel? That's awesome. GET IT!!!!

My .44 Rimfire is exempt because it's not a shotgun.


Murph
 
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Per Frank Wesson Gunmaker, less than 50 were made in .38 and .44 Centerfire. The only reported barrel lengths are 15.5 and 20.25 inch. Look for a bead front sight and no indication of a barrel-mounted rear. All smoothbores were special order, so if it looks promising I would probably take a chance on a one of a kind.

Bob
 
I bought the pocket shotgun this morning. It has a front bead sight. The serial number on the butt looks like 13. I haven't measured the bore or taken it apart yet, but I will.
As far as the barrel length - if measured to the end of the octagonal rear section, it is 24".
The patent date is 1870.

In the pic with the tape measure - that's the extraction knob under the 23".
 

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The puzzle grows.
I removed the grips. On each grip is stamped the number 12. Now I can see a 12 on the butt (not 13).
On the underside of the barrel is the number 2023. The barrel is 24 1/4" long.
It's definitely centerfire.
A S&W .38 case will not fit (too wide) but a .38 Special case fits and extracts perfectly. The extractor is hand activated by sliding a knob and pushing the case out.
Then there's that rear sight.
I have an 1873 Maynard with a .40-40 rifled barrel and a smoothbore barrel. Switching the barrels takes a minute or two. A Maynard owner could contact the factory and ask for an additional barrel - either a smoothbore or a different caliber.
I was thinking that maybe Wesson offered different barrels, but the rifled barrels were for rimfire ammo. The Maynards were all centerfire.
Interesting gun.
 
Authentic/unaltered?

Very neat collectable. Congrats!

Interesting that it has a different number on the barrel? Unless it has been machine altered from a 32rf to a 38 cf smooth bore? How does the bore look? It should also have a machined chamber with case stop. My 44Rimfire does....I'm going to dig mine out and post a few photo's. I am torn between a modified barrel and simply Frank Wesson using one of the 5000 barrels he had laying around for the 32rf? It's possible since these are so rare. Just strange that the number doesn't match. That's a tough one to swallow.

I recommend you look closely at the hammer and recoil shield. It's pretty obvious when a gun is converted from rimfire to centerfire. If the hammer looks unaltered and the recoil shield looks uncut? Then it has to be legit. I'd look closely though. If it's altered from a standard 32rf the value isn't there.

Could you post additional photo's of the hammer? I'm curious as to what a centerfire hammer would have looked like on one of these.

Also: "Does the stock have a matching number???"


Murph
 
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I can't find a number on the stock.
The recoil shield looks unaltered.
I don't know what a RF hammer would look like so I can't compare (that's not a very good pic of the hammer).
It did pop a primer in a .38 SP case.
The extractor is set up and situated for a .38 case.
The bore is really good, with no pitting. It doesn't look like it was newly bored out.
There's a button on the left that, when pushed when the hammer is half cocked, slides a bar in front of the hammer so it won't drop on a loaded round. Fully cock the hammer and the bar slides out of the way.
 

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44 Rimfire

Yeah,
It has a floating pin just like the Stephens single shot. I've never looked at the more common 32 rimfire. Keep in mind that they made 5000 of those and they are also 1/2 round and 1/2 octagon with various barrel lengths. Likely the 32 rimfire also has a floating pin.

My 44 Rimfire on the large frame does not. It's cut out at the top of the recoil shield. This is a tough one to evaluate. My gut is telling me its been altered but I would have to have it in hand to confirm it's been machined. To change a floating rimfire pin to centerfire isn't difficult. The serial number should match. Also, the barrel must be a one piece. Is it? If it's two pieces? It's definitely altered. I'm also not liking the machine work where the floating pin is struck by the hammer. The hammer slot? Looks very rough, not smooth like it should be. The pin also looks very shiny.

You know what you could do also? Mic' the bore....It "MUST BE" .375....That was the typical "early" .38 caliber. That includes a smooth bore! If someone faked it? They didn't get the bore right. I'd bet on that. NO SUCH animal as a .358 bore in 1875!!!! This would also "Pre-date" the .360 S&W round! I'm kinda having a problem with that 38 special case length fitting in this chamber too. The 38 Long case would likely be the chambering for this "shot" round. It's possible that it would be the 38XL but in a centerfire? Hmmmm.. The 38 special case should not fit in my opinion. It should hit the case stop "shy" of chambering. I'll have to look up the 38XL case length but that's a stretch in my opinion it would have been the 38L shot round.

My 44 Rimfire has a matching number under the lug and under the left grip on the iron frame. Also on both grips.

Here are a couple photo's of mine. It has an 18" rifled barrel with a clear chamber and case stop, iron frame, correct sights, matching numbers. It is missing the stock and the auto spring ejector is missing inside the lug. I'll replace that some day.


Murph
 

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The barrel is one piece.
I will slug the bore. .38 SP does seem strange. I figured the .38 S&W would fit, but, no.
I'm still thinking about the Maynard with the interchangeable barrels, especially since you mentioned a floating pin like the Stevens.
My Maynard has a matching numbered smoothbore barrel, but the serial number was added by the factory when the owner ordered the barrel. They stamped a matching number to the gun. The .40-40 barrel does not match, but it didn't come with the gun (but it does fit).
Stay with me while I play S. Holmes...
Stevens bought out Maynard. Maynard, Stevens and Wesson were all located in Massachusetts (as am I). Chicopee, MA (Stevens, Maynard) to Worchester MA (Wesson) is 42 miles.
Maybe you could order an extra barrel for a Wesson, as you could with the Maynard.
Which brings up a good question: what happened to Massachusetts? It used to be a gun haven.
I'll slug the bore.
I wonder if there's any Wesson records available to see what #12 was when it left the factory.
In the pic: Maynard over a Stevens.
 

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Cross Referencing

Some references claim the "POCKET SHOTGUN" was manufactured from 1870-1975. I think that's pure guess. What we do know for a fact is that the .38 centerfire was not introduced until 1875 for the Colt NEW LINE. That would include "shot" cartridges. So, the chamber for this .38 centerfire must be designed for the .38 Long centerfire if it's original.

Your point is well taken regarding a later ordered barrel? Still, it should not chamber the 38 special in my opinion so not unlike the mis-matched barrel number? The chamber is odd. If it was originally designed for "Shot" in .38 centerfire in 1875? It should have a chamber that stops at the length of a 38 Long case.

If someone altered this barrel to chamber a .38 centerfire? I would bet that they altered it to the modern .38 which would be .358 that started in 1899. Tooling for the .375 bore in my opinion would be very hard to find but .358 is common.

So, if it does Mic' at .375 then it's an original .38 shotgun barrel. I suppose that's all that really matters.


Murph

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I used a caliper to get some measurements, instead of driving a lead ball into the barrel.
The breech end measures .375".
The muzzle measures .358".
Approx. 1.90" into the breech, the bore narrows (forming a step). I can't measure it but I'm guessing it drops down to .358".
A .357 Mag case does not reach this "step".
What was the case length of a .38 shot shell?
So, was the bore reduction a choke?
Or, was the barrel relined to .358?
If I was going to reline a barrel, I'd probably go with a rifled liner. This is smoothbore all the way.
I'll try to find the length of a .38 shot shell.
Also, the 38/357 cases are not a tight fit. I'll try to find the dimensions of a 38 Long case. If it's slightly wider than a 38 SP but not as wide as a 38 S&W, that would make sense.
 
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Modified

In my opinion you just proved it was altered To the modern 38 cal bore specs. The 38 center fire shot case in 1875 would be identical to the 38 Long. I have a few in my collection. Maybe they made custom rounds for 1 of 50 guns manufactured? That’s a stretch though.

Even as an example the Hopkins & Allen Chichester long barrel pocket rifles were smooth bored to applicable 38 Long calibers of era manufactured. 1879ish. In other words the bores mic to .375 +\- .002. The shot bore was not unusual in the latter part of the 19th century. A way to catch butterflies without a net, species of birds without a lot of tissue damage, very small game, etc. see photos of The XL shotgun introduced in about 1887. Much later that this 1875 Frank Wesson. Unless the book references are not correct? The 1870 patent date would be a problem though?

.358 bore was not introduced until the .38 special in 1899!

That’s why I suggested to mic the bore. The machinist would not be historically accurate in his/her alteration!! .375 would be correct for 1875!


Murph
 

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Kinda makes sense, but why reline a barrel into a smoothbore .38 when it was already a smoothbore .38? Unless it was a .32 rimfire as you mentioned.
Doesn't a 38 Long Colt use a .357" diameter bullet, same as the .38 SP?
Why didn't the machinist continue the liner further up into the breech?
Questions, questions...
It'll come to me...
 
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1875

The year 1875 the 38 Long centerfire used an outside lubricated.375 bullet. That changed in 1891 to an inside lubricated hollow based bullet but the bore of said firearm remained at .375.

All this stuff on the Frank Wesson is speculative. Very limited info. For all we know this pocket shotgun could have been special ordered in 1893 and put together with leftover parts! When you are talking about 50 made? Anything goes!

From a collectors perspective the non matching numbers are a significant issue! What I would do is try to locate another one ( Good Luck!) and see what kind of specs it has. If it matches yours? Document it. Photo it. My 44 Rimfire is the only one I’ve seen in over 40 years but to be honest it’s not like I was looking hard!

Research is the answer but you picked a very hard subject to find and follow up on.

Find another one! Either caliber will work. Compare features, matching numbers? Floating pin?, chamber and bore specs?, etc

To evaluate your antique further I must have it in my hands! Photos that aren’t high detail and someone’s else descriptions just don’t work for this rare bird. Sorry.


Murph
 
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