“FRANKFORD ARSENAL SCHOFIELD RELOADING TOOLS”

BMur · #1 12-09-2022, 06:22 PM

Finding the elusive Smith & Wesson 45 Schofield reloading tools has been very enjoyable research.
I found and purchased this Frankford Arsenal bench gang priming tool that was designed to re-prime both 38 & 45 cal pistol and 45 cal & later 30 cal rifle cases beginning in about 1882. The 45 Schofield and Colt revolvers would have been reloaded often during that time frame at various forts on the frontier.

These tools are harder to find than the early commercial reloading tools and kits. Very hard to find! This tool is government inspected at least on one of the moving parts that confirms a 1907 date
And identifies the inspector by initials.

The tool is clearly designed for the 45 case so I will have to look closely at the plunger for a possible earlier inspection date when it arrives. Parts are found replaced on these early military tools due to heavy volume field use and breakage.

A reloading bench became standard at military forts during the Indian Wars. Later at Military schools for training in reloading skills in the field when fresh ammo wasn’t always readily available.

Murph

S&W ucla · #2 12-09-2022, 10:30 PM

Very Cool! I never really thought about the military reloading at the outposts.

BMur · #3 12-09-2022, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S&W ucla

Very Cool! I never really thought about the military reloading at the outposts.

Yeah,
Once the Frankford Arsenal developed a reloadable case in about 1880? That combined with the Government severely restricting funds given to the Military at that time. Basically the remote outposts were on their own. Just like the movies!

So reloading was most definitely huge at the Forts.

One can only speculate as to percentages of reloads manufactured on site compared to Frankford Arsenal issued rounds but there are government documents that clearly limited each trooper after 1880 to only 10 practice rounds per month! This was during the Indian wars!

When these rare tools are found they are mostly broken, partial and/or beat up to say the least. That’s what I’m expecting to see when it gets here. Just hoping it is functioning ok. I just know that 1907 part is newer to the tool. The geared plunger looks to be original so if inspector stamped it’s likely very early 1880’s. That’s what I’m hoping.

See photos of partial and near complete hand loading tools from 1883 kit also proven by inspector at that time stamped on the extremely rare tools.

Inspectors;
O.E.M: Otho Ernest Michaelis ( Captain)
O.M.L : Ormond Mitchell Lissak ( Major)

Murph

DWalt · #4 12-10-2022, 12:04 AM

Reloading of military cartridges at the installation level may have continued possibly beyond WWI. I have examples of WWI-era .45 ACP and .30-06 cartridge boxes with label instructions that fired cases are to be de-primed as soon as possible, soaked in water, and the interior cleaned with “a brush wiper or piece of rag on the end of a wiping rod and packed loosely in ammunition boxes.” That instruction would not have been given if there was no intent to reload those fired cases.

Patbar · #5 12-10-2022, 03:40 AM

What surprises me is this 1907 date. Were there Schofields still in service so late ?

BMur · #6 12-10-2022, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patbar

What surprises me is this 1907 date. Were there Schofields still in service so late ?

Me too Patbar,
This tool was introduced in about 1882ish. Maybe as early as 1880. So having a 1907 Military inspection date might seem strange but actually it's not in the least bit unusual for these old tools. Understanding the Military inspectors process during that early era is kind of complex but not really.
When a tool or gun remains in service for many years they can break or be damaged in some way that requires repair. Often this will require a re-inspection of the tool/part/gun. Which will produce another inspection stamp at a much later date than the tool was actually introduced. You can find this same inspection process on guns that remained in military service for many years.
Some 45 Schofields remained in military service after the turn of the century. Several are documented as used in the Spanish American War of 1898 but that would be very few remaining by that time.

I believe this tool was in service for a long time and saw multiple inspections due to breakage and repair. When these rare tools are found they are often found with multiple inspection marks. I can't wait to see it up close.

I'll post much better photo's when I have it in hand.

As I mentioned I expect to see some significant wear to the tool from heavy bench use. Pressing thousands of primers would introduce wear to one specific area of the tool that should show up with dismantling. Hopefully it comes apart easily.

Murph

desi2358 · #7 12-10-2022, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patbar

What surprises me is this 1907 date. Were there Schofields still in service so late ?

Well, IIRC after using the 45 Colt round and the 45 Schofield round the US military standardized on what was basically the Schofield round as it could be used in both revolvers. And stayed with it even after the Schofields were considered obsolete and sold off as surplus (though some arsenals reportedly still had some in inventory for years from what I've read). There were still a lot of Colts in service (many rebuilt into what collectors call "Artillery" models with the shorter barrel) and the tool could certainly have been used to load ammo for them.

BMur · #8 12-10-2022, 10:35 PM

I'm getting myself all worked up here.... I zoomed in on the tool and noticed it has a "removable" cartridge holder. Looking at the Frankford Arsenal drawing of the tool you will notice a screw on the side of the deck. See yellow arrow.

So, it's obvious to me that the cartridge holder is for a specific caliber. Since it has a rim and appears to be large caliber, I would wager a 45 caliber shell. Probably the 45/70 Gov. rifle round but it could also be the 45 Schofield/Colt case holder. It's definitely not a .30 cal rifle semi-rimmed holder. Nor is it a .38 DA shell holder. Way too small. That part is very exciting to me.

What's got me going is that part is obviously removable and could also be caliber marked! It could also be Military inspector marked with a stamp. Which would date the part. So, lot's of possibilities on this tool.

The simple fact that it has a rimmed large caliber case holder mounted to it supports it's age being older than 1907.

Murph

Ruger 1,3 · #9 12-10-2022, 04:10 AM

Very nice……. I love that kind of stuff!

DWalt · #10 12-10-2022, 11:50 PM

Remember that there was also a M1909 .45 military revolver cartridge that had a slightly larger rim diameter than the .45 Schofield cartridge. The shell holder could have been designed to accommodate both rim diameters.

BMur · #11 12-12-2022, 03:16 PM

I've spent some of my spare time researching this Frankford Arsenal reloading tool.

Apparently the Bench reloading tools were introduced "prior" to 1885 and were constantly upgraded/repaired when new cartridges/calibers were introduced. This process lasted over 30 years at which point the tools became obsolete and are found with no further upgrades/inspections.

So, these tools are actually older than in this case the 1907 inspection date having the G.H.S. inspector Lieut. Gilbert Henry Stewart. He was the inspector from 1905-1908. This date only signifies the last update/inspection to the tool. It does not in any way date the tool's actual age.

I found several of these gang priming tools. Most received the latest 1907 inspection/upgrade. Some did not. I found one with no inspection.

So, I'll wait until I have the tool in hand to look for possible hidden earlier inspection dates, etc. These tools remained in service for many years and were simply upgraded/inspected likely when sent back to the Arsenal for repairs.

It would be the exact same process for a Military firearm that saw lengthy service. Often being sent back to the Armory for repairs.

The Antique reloading tool examples that tend to survive until today are those that remained in the custody of the Arsenal late in service. That is why the 1907 final inspection date is the most common found. When found!

It's also why the part having the 1907 inspection stamp tends to have bluing/finish remaining. Where as the plunger looks like it's been dragged behind a truck for 40 years. Lacking finish and heavily worn.

Murph

Ivan the Butcher · #12 12-12-2022, 07:38 PM

With officers providing their own weapons and kit, I wonder if they provided their own reloading equipment from commercial sources. Basically, the Lyman Tong tools?

I cannot imagine being on an ammunition loading detail was any more fun than being on kitchen patrol! My kids didn't like getting drafted to load the shot shells they had fun using up in a hurry! Why would frontier soldiers be any different. So, I'm sure the Unit kit was highly abused!

Ivan

BMur · #13 12-12-2022, 11:24 PM

Looks like these early Bench reloading tools were made obsolete by the introduction of the 30-06 rimless case (1906) and other pistol rimless cases like the 45 Auto, etc. The semi-auto and automatic actions. The earlier 30-40 Krag has a rimmed case.
This also supports the last inspection date being 1907. That basically marked the end for these tools only because the design could not be easily converted to reload rimless cases. So they were basically done in 1907.

Interesting research.

Murph

Ivan the Butcher · #14 12-13-2022, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Looks like these early Bench reloading tools were made obsolete by the introduction of the 30-06 rimless case (1906) and other pistol rimless cases like the 45 Auto, etc. The semi-auto and automatic actions. The earlier 30-40 Krag has a rimmed case.
This also supports the last inspection date being 1907. That basically marked the end for these tools only because the design could not be easily converted to reload rimless cases. So they were basically done in 1907.

Interesting research.

Murph

Don't forget the 1903 cartridge. "30-03" with the 200 grain RN projectile and slightly longer case.

Also, Ohio State Guard maintained Trapdoor 45-70 rifles in the state armory into the 1970's (not to mention 50 coffee grinder Sharp's carbines found post-Vietnam.)

These are just some examples of what got held onto!

The number 46 Lyman loading manual has reprints of a pamphlet showing Arsenal loading tools in the historical section.

BTW, in my collection, I have a Nickle washed 45-70 from Franklin Arsenal using a Boxer type primer and head stamped "FA 98".

Ivan

BMur · #15 12-15-2022, 03:43 PM

More detailed research only provides more proof these bench reloading tools were introduced in the early 1880’s to reload 45 cal cartridges. Photos 1&2 clearly show large caliber cases in the tool from a pre-1885 design drawing.

Also, I did a comparison of the tools I found with recent research. You can also clearly see a totally different case holder between photos 3&4. The tool should be here tomorrow so hopefully that case holder on my tool is caliber stamped. From comparison cartridge spec drawings and the photos of my tool it’s either a 45/70 or a 45 Schofield/Colt case holder.

Murph

BMur · #16 12-17-2022, 03:22 PM

What can I say except an absolutely wonderful antique loadiing tool. Extremely well made and in my opinion it has definitely been re-furbished. I suspect in 1907 the loading lever gear was replaced due to wear and damage. See photo's. The obvious wear and dis-similar finish between the plunger and loading lever gear obviously represents a refurbishing of the tool in 1907. The plunger is much older than the replaced loading lever and gear.
The chipped, bent, and worn teeth of the loading lever gear are obvious signs of heavy use post 1907 and also confirms which part would require replacement in order to restore the use of the tool. I suspect that was the primary reason for the re-inspection and refurbishing of this tool. "Gear failure" from heavy use.

The existing removeable and interchangeable case holder is definitely for the 45 Schofield/Colt original round. See photo's. Notice the modern 45 Colt case fits perfectly. You can see a comparison between the Antique dug up Schofield round having a slightly wider base rim. I couldn't get that example into the tool since it's damaged and I refuse to attempt to resize it to fit. It's definitely the correct round for this antique Frankford Arsenal Gang priming tool.

Very historical early loading tool that saw the elephant. Sure wish I knew where it's been in past 130+ years.

Murph

Patbar · #17 12-18-2022, 04:09 AM

Murph, you will perhaps think that my question is a bit silly (I don't know much about cartridge reloading), but can your tool reload Benet primed cartridges ?

BMur · #18 12-18-2022, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patbar

Murph, you will perhaps think that my question is a bit silly (I don't know much about cartridge reloading), but can your tool reload Benet primed cartridges ?

Patbar,
The Military's first reloadable cartridge was based on the Gill patent anvil primer of 1879. That primer was pressed into an outside primed case. See photo's. Frankford Arsenal issued tin's of 500 primers! That were likely shipped initially in 1882 with the reloading hand and bench tools to the outposts, Forts, training facilities, etc. Throughout the U.S. That was the direct instruction from the Chief of Army Ordnance. To train in the use of these tools and basically put them to use.

That was the first reloadable "military" primed case and it was "outside" primed and based on the "Boxer" pocket design. A single flash hole that allowed an easy removal of the spent primer from the outside primed case. Using a punch from inside the case.

The late 1886 Chief of Ordnance letter basically says it all and "confirms" the early issuance of "bench" and hand loading tools with in depth instructions on how to use them. So, that was the beginning for the Military. 1882. See photo of cut out from 1886 Chief of Ordnance letter. Rock solid proof of early issuance of "Bench" and hand loading tools "prior" to 1886.

What is often mistaken by researchers is the later surviving manuals that describe the newer model bench tools and date them to 1898-1907. Those are "improved", updated, and refurbished models. They are identical to the earlier tools only often have very slight improvements to designs that include new caliber holders, different punch that actually fits and functions in the early design, and very slight design feature changes that strengthen weaknesses to the earlier tools. Often they are actually the same early tools that saw very simple refurbishing and re-inspection like my tool. Pop out the busted part, side in the new improved part, and call it a new tool. That’s the U.S. Military!

See photo's.

Murph

BMur · #19 12-18-2022, 04:19 PM

Ok,
I changed my mind. Just to put this issue once and for all to rest. This is not a 30-40 Krag case holder.

I decided to clean and size the original circa 1884 Schofield 45
Case and sized it to .480 base diameter. Which is actually a little oversized for the original case diameter.

Look closely at the photos. The case is not a good fit in the tool. It is a “perfect fit” in the tool. The 30-40 Krag head is too big for this case holder. It is now 100% clearly proven to be a case holder for the 45 Schofield/ Colt original case as seen holding perfectly a circa 1884 original dug up 45 cal case. Literally 2 years after this tool was introduced. It doesn’t get better than this example.
If you still can’t see it? I can’t help you.

Murph

BMur · #20 12-19-2022, 12:41 AM

I’m researching Frankford Arsenal yearly reports from the Chief of Ordnance.

According to the 1897 Report the Frankford Arsenal manufactured and issued the following;

45 cal ball rounds: Manufactured; 4,509,598. Issued; 1,082,500

Small Arms primers: Manufactured; 2,000,000. Issued; 1,584,700

So they actually issued more primers in 1897 than rounds of 45 cal pistol ball ammo.

That’s a lot of reloading!!!

Murph

Patbar · #21 12-19-2022, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMur

Patbar,
The Military's first reloadable cartridge was based on the Gill patent anvil primer of 1879. That primer was pressed into an outside primed case.
.............................................................
Murph

Thanks for your infos, Murph. So, If I understand what you wrote, your tool was designed for outside primed cases and not for inside ones like Benet's.

BMur · #22 12-19-2022, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patbar

Thanks for your infos, Murph. So, If I understand what you wrote, your tool was designed for outside primed cases and not for inside ones like Benet's.

Patbar,
That’s correct. I’m not aware of any tools manufactured at that time for reloading the inside primed cartridge. The U.S. military did not consider it a reloadable case.

Murph

Thuer · #23 12-18-2022, 08:12 AM

I love this. I am only wondering what purpose that round plateau has. Lyman was first Ideal. The first reloading sets came on the market around 1884. The owner of the Ideal was H.Barlow. later it was bought by Lyman. Just from my head.

BMur · #24 12-18-2022, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thuer

I love this. I am only wondering what purpose that round plateau has. Lyman was first Ideal. The first reloading sets came on the market around 1884. The owner of the Ideal was H.Barlow. later it was bought by Lyman. Just from my head.

The first Commercial reloading tool was October, 1871 for pistols. Rifles was the late 1860's. This was a multi-purpose tool to remove the Berdan primer, mold twin conical bullets and press the bullet into the copper case. It was for the 44 American revolver.

The second sets of tools for the "Boxer" primer came out in about 1876. That was for the Russian/Baby Russian. 44 and 38 cal. Also, Winchester introduced it's early multi-purpose tool in that same time frame..1874/1875. Still using the Berdan primer tool.
It basically boomed from that point on with the introduction of the "Boxer" primer to the Commercial market in 1876....that really is the date...1876 that the kits really started booming on the market.

Ideal before it was a Company is documented as introducing early tools in the late 1870's that were not Commercially manufactured until the early 1880's. They are extremely rare and unmarked.

Murph

Thuer · #25 12-21-2022, 10:00 AM

Thanks learned a lot. But do not forgett the Colt Thuer conversion. That was his own reloading tool.

BMur · #26 12-21-2022, 01:31 PM

See attachments.

The U.S. Army experimented with this early centerfire and found it to be unreliable ignition and cumbersome to load and unload. It was never adopted. The first reliable and reloadable centerfire “outside primed” design incorporated an anvil to basically reduce the occurrence of miss-fire enough to gain Army Ordnance approval after rigorous testing and documentation. That didn’t happen until 1879 with the approved Gill patent design that I posted.
If you read the early Chief of Army ordnance reports, they experiment and evaluate constantly and from every angle prior to eventually approving a proven reliable design. Usually years of testing prior to general approval.

Murph

BMur · #27 12-27-2022, 05:09 PM

I’ve concluded my research on the early “hand and bench” Frankford Arsenal issued reloading tools.

Results;

The hand loading tools in complete kits were actually introduced and issued by the Frankford Arsenal beginning in 1879.

The bench reloading tools were manufactured at the Frankford Arsenal and shipped in crates, (See photo) to the various forts beginning in 1883. Only minor changes and additions were made to the bench loading tools throughout production.

Reloading was basically routine at the forts and the basic excepted case survival rate was 10 times each case could be reloaded minimum before case failure would occur.

Murph

Ivan the Butcher · #28 12-27-2022, 09:54 PM

Thanks for sharing your efforts and entertaining us for the last 18 days!

I have enjoyed the exploration of all the ideas. One last question. How did the accuracy of the reloads compare to the factory ammo of the times?

Ivan

BMur · #29 12-28-2022, 12:01 AM

Ivan,

The Frankford Arsenal initially issued 50 kits in early 1879. Those kits were sent to various Forts in the Eastern and Southern States to receive feedback I’ve read letters from the following:

Fort Monroe, Va.
Fort McHenry, Me.
Fort McHarvey, Mo.
Fort Trumbull, Conn.
Fort Wadsworth
Fort Ontario
Fort Adams
Fort Columbus
Fort Barraucus, Florida
Little Rock,Ark
Plattsburgh
Etc

Feedback varied based on the capacity of the troops at each Fort to operate the newly designed tools and cartridges. It was all new to them at that time.

Here is an excerpt from the most competent report:

June 9, 1879
From Capt. W. Randolph
Fort Monroe, Va.

1000 rounds were loaded and fired using 600 shells, refilling them sometimes as often as five times.
I find that they shot accurately and are easily refilled.

There were a lot of complaints documented regarding flaws in the early tools that were corrected with later production kits from The Frankford Arsenal based on feedback.

I also clearly documented yearly “replacement parts” that were manufactured for the reloading tools and the bench loading tools as early as 1888. So it was a constant and continual re-supply over a 25 year period found in what remains of the partial Military records.

They were reloading at such a high volume that parts and equipment were breaking down. I really learned a lot from this research and had no idea how much reloading the Army accomplished beginning in 1879! Many millions of rounds were reloaded during that time.

Which really translates to learning the skill in the Military and those that got out and wandered the frontier took that skill with them. Amazing stuff. Not like the movies that’s for sure.

Also and lastly, the real problem was case life. Clearly documented in the records is a breakdown of copper cases, primers becoming inert in as little as 2 years once loaded with black powder.

So storing raw reloading material and reloading when needed was the initial solution and that concept lasted a few decades until machine reloading was required for automatic actions in the smokeless Era that followed.

Murph