Hello,
I've wanted a 44 or 45 top break Smith quite a while. Either come across crazy $$$ ones for me or wall hangers. This one popped up and I'm having it shipped to my local Bass Pro. I have 3 days after they receive it to decide weather to keep it. Here's a link to the listing on Gunsinternational. I know there is no address on top of barrel which is a concern. I am looking for something I can load up some light loads and shoot. Spoke to them and they say it functions and is tight. Any info/help and/or advise would be much appreciated.

Smith & Wesson ~ Model 3 ~ Unknown for sale

Thank you guys/gals very much,

Fred

Looks like a score.
old nickel finish? worn or cleaned but it looks tight.

44 Russian

I'm hoping for 44 Russian since I have 1000 brand new cases to load up!

Thanks,

Fred

Stuff to look for------------------

These are black powder guns. If/when these guns are used with smokeless loads they will develop (cylinder) end shake/excessive headspace/excessive cylinder to barrel gap/loose barrel latch---some of which is fixable, some not.

Let the buyer beware!

Ralph Tremaine

There are case stops in the cylinder which would suggest that it is chambered for the .44 Russian caliber. I find it interesting that the barrel rib markings are not present, and the lanyard ring is not Smith & Wesson. However, the restamping of the serial number is what the factory would do if they had put a lanyard ring through the serial number of an existing revolver that was serialized and in inventory. The lanyard ring is reminiscent of those installed on S&W revolvers shipped to Argentina or Cuba. The Argentina shipped revolvers usually have "EJERCITO ARGENTINO" stamped on the bottom strap below the cylinder on the left side. This one might be worth a $100 letter.

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Mike Maher #283

Hi There,



The pics I've seen show the "EJERCITO ARGENTINO" stamped on
the underside of the bottom strap in front of the trigger guard.


Cheers!
Webb

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Glad to hear about the probability of 44 Russian! As for the lanyard ring that's good info.

Still don't understand how all the markings were removed without giving it that rounded refinished look on the pics. It will probably be more apparent in person?

Anybody think it's not a genuine Smith? Copy from one of many countries(Spain, Italy, Mexico, Belgium, UK, Germany, Russia, ...?)

Thanks again,

Fred

fredcoyote,

I believe you'll find...Should you decide to "Letter" your new acquisition...You'll find this Revolver was most likely shipped in one of two large shipments for use in Japan by Takata & Co. in 1887!!

As to the lack of any Barrel Rib Markings...Seeing a good photo of what "Isn't" there would be a big help if you could provide one!!

Also...In regards to the Non-S&W Lanyard Ring...This Lanyard Ring is the type installed by one of the Japanese Arsenals upon arrival in Japan...Hope this helps!!

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Masterpiece

Thank you for that info.

I was figuring Japanese since most of them were sent there and the number falls right in those shipped. I did see they installed lanyard loops at their armory but wasn't sure if that's how they renumbered them.

I'll post a pic as soon as possible of the top of the barrel. Supica had a big collection of these including many copies from all different countries that went to auction. I have not been able to find many pictures but still looking.

Thanks again for the info. Man I can't wait to run a cylinder of 44 Russian(BP) through that old Smith!!! Fingers crossed it's right and tight(enough!).

Fred

It's for you to decide how tight is "tight (enough)!".

The specs are .005" to .008" for barrel to cylinder, .006" for headspace, and the latch is either as tight as a bank vault, or it isn't.

I say "specs", these dimensions are those observed on as new guns by experts----who say .012" is about it for headspace.

Ralph Tremaine

IMO it is not a copy

Well good deal. Glad to hear no one thinks something looks wrong.

I'll post a few pics when I pick up.

Thanks,

Fred

So it finally arrived at my local Bass pro and they were able to send me a picture of the top of the barrel. All markings are there! Have to run out of town so I can't pick up till Tuesday but it's looking promising.

Post a couple more pics when I get back. Thank you all for your help.

Fred

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Fred,

Thanks so much for posting the photo...Very glad to hear the Barrel Address was still intact...Looking forward to hear how it "Letters"...Good Luck!!

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Masterpiece

Photo resized and rotated. Looks nice!

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S&WHF #946
S&WCA #3824

Great find! The Japanese armorers did install non-S&W lanyard rings. They would then stamp a serial number on the butt, but it may not be more than three numbers not related to the factory serial number. The Argentine shipped revolvers also had a non-S&W lanyard ring installed. I'd get a letter just to settle my curiosity.

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Mike Maher #283

Got the old girl this morning on the way to work. So...

I think I got a shooter... She has zero play when locked up. Timing is better than some of my newer ones. Cylinder gap is tight .010. Serial number on butt, cylinder, latch, barrel by latch, and scratched inside of right grip. Bore is surprisingly crisp and shiny even without cleaning. About the only finish is in the flutes and a little under barrel rib.

I'll try to get my first letter requested tomorrow.

Funny thing, Gun vault guy at Bass Pro said no guns will ever leave the store without a 4473 which I argued a bit but said fine. He started the form but ran into a problem adding the Smith since the smart Vegas BPS guy entered it as an antique so they ate crow and just gave me a release without 4473! All good guys though.

More on it later since i'm tired from travel and work!

Fred

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Nice Fred. I love the #3's
It may be a factory lanyard ring .
Your letter might say

Interesting to see a five-digit number AND the same as the serial number. The lanyard ring is not from S&W. It is typical, as is the reserialization, of revolvers sent to Argentina. A letter is in order, and I would be very surprised if it was sent anywhere but Argentina. I'm envious. I want one for my collection.

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Mike Maher #283

iby,

I'm "Very" familiar with these Japanese-Shipped NM3#s & I can most definitely assure you the Lanyard Ring was installed by one of the Japanese Armories after it arrived in Japan...Not by S&W!!!

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Masterpiece

Mike,

I rarely disagree with your analysis,"But" in this particular instance I'm going to have to...Sorry!!

As I noted to "iby" a short time ago...The Lanyard Ring was most definitely installed by one of the Japanese Armories after it's arrival in Japan!!

Also...The way the 5-Digit Ser. No. is relocated on the Butt is also identical to all of the Japanese-Shipped NM#3s I've ever owned or encountered over the years...Not typical of those shipped to Argentina...Again sorry, but I know these Japanese -Shipped Revolvers pretty well!!

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Masterpiece

Good info!

As for being Japanese is it common to not have any of their marks(anchor or character)? If it's definitely Japanese a letter seems a bit of a waste since not much info other than Takata is given?

Fred

Fred,

To answer your inquiry regarding the lack of any Japanese Markings...I've found a large portion of the NM#3s shipped to Takata & Co. I've owned or encountered are lacking any of these markings...Not all, but most!! Nevertheless...If it were mine I'd "Letter" it regardless...Just my opinion!!

One other question I've been meaning to ask given some of the photos are a bit misleading...What "IS" the Finish on Your Revolver...Blue or Nickel!! Reason I ask...A couple of the photos lead me to believe it's Nickel in areas that generally show no wear...In particular the area under the Cylinder on the Lower Frame Strap as well as the Recoil Shield...Just Curious!!

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Masterpiece

Hi There,


My first No: 3 was a New Model that was shipped to Japan via
Takata & Co. It does not have any Japanese marking at all.


Cheers!
Webb

Masterpiece, while I agree that it might have been shipped to Japan as most were, I still have my doubts as there are only a few in the serial number range of 22,000 that are known (published) to exist that were sent to Japan. The lanyard ring, whether installed in Japan or Argentina, look to be the same and not S&W. The Japanese installed lanyard rings are usually installed in the center of the butt while the Argentine installed ones were installed at the heel of the butt as this one is. I'd love to see the letter.

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Mike Maher #283

I was assuming it was blue but under the grips and when you crack it open looks silver to me. I found a couple other marks, a tiny 5 and P under the cylinder and a 2 between the ears of the latch. Mean anything?

I'll send off for a letter in the morning when I'm on my computer and not my phone.

I'm hoping it's not Japanese! But either way I'm shooting her...

I have a n Uberti copy and it feels like a boat anchor next to this girl. I'm afraid. I just opened up a new rabbit hole, ughhh. Been working on a local friend that might have another model 3 for me. This one might be a bit older and more expensive though.

Fred

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After another look at the lanyard ring I agree that it is not a typical S&W

Mike,

I'll have to agree they're aren't many found in the 22,000 Ser. No. Range, but they do exist!! I've attached a few photos of a couple along with their accompanying Factory Letters!! (See Pics) There is also another one in Nickel (Ser. No. 22958) also in that same Dec.29th,1894 Shipment which I lost the photos of in my last computer crash or I would have posted them as well...Sorry!!

One thing you have to remember most, but not all, of these Takata Revolvers that shipped to Japan were randomly pulled from existing inventory which further confuses the serial number issue which scatters the Ser. No. Ranges all over the place!!

Also...Regarding the Lanyard Ring location...Most all I've found (Blue or Nickel) with Japanese Arsenal-Installed Lanyard Rings are located in the Toe of the Grip Frame not in the Heel!! As an aside the ones found located in the center are, more often than not, Factory S&W Lanyard Rings...Just my personal findings!! I'm also very interested in to see the Letter when it arrives to see if my assumptions were correct!!

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	S&W NM#3 .44 Russian 6.5-Inch Barrel Nickel Finish (Japanese Contract Variation) Ser. No. 22012 .jpg (123.5 KB, 35 views)

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Masterpiece

Okay, here's another gun to add to the database. This NM3 .44 Russian came into my possession when I worked at a large gun shop about 10 years ago. A woman was liquidating the estate of her deceased father, a US Marine who had fought in the Pacific in WWII. Along with a couple US military issue pistols - a 1911 and a Victory, as I recall, was this S&W NM3, which I bought. Odd thing about it is, although the external condition shows some damage to the nickel finish and buggered screw slots, the darn thing otherwise appears unfired. The bore, chambers, cylinder face, and recoil shield are all pristine, and it's as mechanically sound as a brand new gun.

Now I seem to recall reading somewhere about Marines fighting on the Pacific islands recovering these guns in like new condition. Until just now, it never occurred to me that my NM3 might have been one of them, but now it kind of makes sense.

Here are a few photos of my gun. The lanyard and the markings inside the frame look practically identical to those Fredcoyote posted. I also have the tiny "2" stamped between the latch ears.

IMG_5171 copy.jpg

IMG_5172 copy.jpg

IMG_5169.jpg

IMG_5170.jpg

Okay, wow. Next step I guess is to do what I've been putting off for 10 years: get it lettered. Not sure how long it's taking these days, but I'll get the form sent off pretty soon, and when I get the letter, I'll hunt down this thread and update it.

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Ain't This Fun Though?

"Also...Regarding the Lanyard Ring location...Most all I've found (Blue or Nickel) with Japanese Arsenal-Installed Lanyard Rings are located in the Toe of the Grip Frame not in the Heel!! As an aside the ones found located in the center are, more often than not, Factory S&W Lanyard Rings...Just my personal findings!! I'm also very interested in to see the Letter when it arrives to see if my assumptions were correct!!"

Masterpiece, you are correct. Yes, that's what I should have said. My Japanese contract revolvers have S&W factory installed lanyard rings.

OutAtTheEdge has an interesting one also. My understanding is that very few nickel revolvers were shipped to Japan. And again, the full serial number restamp is unusual in my book for a Japan shipped NM #3.

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Mike Maher #283

OutAtThe Edge,

Thanks so much for posting the Photos of Your Nickel (Japanese Contract Variation) NM#3 Revolver...Very nice specimen indeed!! And yes, the Lanyard Ring is absolutely identical to the OP's as you suspected!!

I also like the back story about it being brought back by a Marine fighting in the Pacific!! Very much the same back story as the Nickel NM#3 Revolver with Ser.No. 22012 I posted just the other day!!

As far as being a Japanese-Shipped Nickel NM#3...Yours will be the 13th one I now have documented in the past 40 Years since I came to find that Takata & Co. had shipped a very small quantity of Nickel NM#3 Revolvers in amongst the mainly Blued Revolver Shipments of which most are!!

Now regarding when it possibly shipped...I'd say possibly the same year the OP's did "Unless" it "Letters" being shipped in a later shipment (Dec.29,1894) in which 5 of the 13 I now have documented did!! If so...It surely would help confirm my thoughts that most...If not all the Nickel Guns shipped to Takata & Co. were in that same shipment!!

Anyway...Thanks again for posting it & now I'm extremely anxious to see the results of Your Letter when it arrives!!

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Masterpiece

My pleasure, Masterpiece. I just got email confirmation that my factory letter request was received. I'm looking forward to posting the letter here when I get it. Meanwhile, here are few pics showing the incredible condition of the bore, recoil shield, and cylinder. (Sorry about the dust in the bore. It actually is just about perfect.)

IMG_5072.jpg

IMG_5067.jpg

IMG_5066.jpg

IMG_5069.jpg

It seems obvious that you have serious game with regard to these guns. Assuming my gun comes back lettered to Japan, can you give me your estimation of this one's market value?

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Ain't This Fun Though?

OutAtTheEdge,

First of all...Thanks so much for posting the Add'l Photos...Greatly appreciated!!

Secondly...Yes you are correct in assuming I have serious regard for these Japanese-Shipped NM#3's...Especially so if they "Letter" as being shipped with a Nickel Finish!! Main reason being...As I noted previously...It is my belief there were "Very" few of these shipped to Japan making them very scarce to cross paths with a correct one!!

Given the above...As far as value goes...To the right NM#3 Collector one that "Letters" being Japanese-Shipped with a Nickel Finish in today's market with the high condition yours exhibits...I don't see $2000-$2500 being too far off the mark...Just my personal opinion!!

Thanks again...And as I noted earlier...I'm very anxious to see the contents of Letter when it arrives!!

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Masterpiece

OutAtTheEdge, I note in photo #3 that the extractor star has been removed and reinstalled incorrectly, most likely by the Japanese armorer. Note the punch dot on one leg of the star. That dot would be directly under the serial number as the revolver left the factory. This, in no way affects the value or function. I'm also anxious to see the letter.

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Mike Maher #283

You lucky dog. I always wanted one of those and that one looks in great shape for its age. I would handload for it and use only starting loads. It would be cheap to shoot with cast bullets. I guess maybe I should look into getting a replica Uberti top break.

A Takata shipped 22,993 s/n in my collection with factory letter.
Note the location of the factory installed lanyard ring.

singleshot1891,

Thanks for posting yet another "Very Nice" Nickel Japanese-Shipped NM#3...That brings the total now up to 14 I have recorded!

I do have a question & a notation though if you don't mind me asking!! First of all...I believe the Shipping Date Year noted in the Letter is very possibly a Typo being I have no known Takata Shipments to Japan noted in 1891!! To explain...I believe the Shipping date should be Dec.29,"1894" rather than "1891"!! Main reason being...Up until now at least 5 of the now 14 Nickel NM#3's to Japan have Lettered being shipped on that date!! The only reason I have no more info regarding the other 8...I've never been able to get "Confirmed" Shipping Dates for those in all the years I've been tracking these Nickel NM#3's!!

As an aside...There is another Letter Request pending until (OutAtTheEdge's) Letter comes back...Should his "Letter" note being shipped Dec.1894 as well it may be worth contacting Don Mundell to see if he'll re-check the Records to confirm Your Shipping Date...Just a suggestion!!

The other thing I wanted to make mention of...The Lanyard Ring on Your Revolver is a Japanese Arsenal-Installed Ring...Not S&W as the Letter leads one to believe...Another possible discrepancy in the Letter!!

One last question...Does Your Revolver have the Full 5 Digit Ser. No. relocated sideways across the Heel of the Butt as most all of these I have recorded do??

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Masterpiece

Yes it does Masterpiece.

Well, you had it right, Masterpiece. In a nutshell, 6-1/2" factory nickel, shipped December 29, 1894 to Takata. Interesting to note it says that the gun "would have been pulled from the order and had a lanyard installed" with the SN restamped across the end of the butt. So, is this in fact a factory lanyard? They seem to think so, but don't have the SNs to verify it. How solid is the info supporting the S&W vs. Japanese placement of the lanyard?

NM3 Letter.jpg

This is fun!

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Ain't This Fun Though?

singleshot1891,

Sorry it took so long to note you'd posted the photo of the Relocated Ser. No. on Your Revolver...Slipped my mind until I was notified that OutAtTheEdge's Letter had arrived...Appreciate you taking the time to post it!!

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Masterpiece

There seems to be too many : "it is believed to be " for my liking.


"is believed to have been produced by Smith & Wesson (S&W) as a Model 3"
"but is believed to either be in .44 S&W American OR in .44 Russian,"


I think it's case of buyer be wary.

OutAtTheEdge,

"Very" happy Your Revolver "Lettered" as I expected it to...This also pretty much confirms my suspicions that even the other Nickel (Japanese-Shipped) NM#3 Revolvers that I previously have been unable to confirm...Unless some extreme circumstance withstanding will discount this...Will also "Letter" as being shipped on that Date to Takata as well!!

As to your inquiry how solid is the info supporting the placement of the (Japanese Arsenal Style Lanyard) on your Revolver...In my opinion very solid given "All" of my research I've come across leads me to believe this style was "Never" installed by S&W at the factory!! Also...All the the S&W Lanyards are completely different design as well as the placement of them...I'll see if I can find a couple decent photos for comparison & post them if I do so you can see the difference!!

Also...Many years ago Roy & I had some heated discussions about this and he could never come up with a concrete answer that they were...Why from time to time Letters come through leading you to believe them to be S&W Factory Lanyards I'll never no because they aren't!!

Only way I could perceive them being so is to find some notation in the Factory Records that the Japanese supplied these Lanyards to S&W to be installed there before these Revolvers having them were shipped to Japan...I seriously doubt there is any info to be found...Just my opinion!!

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Masterpiece

'"it is believed to be "' is a copout for when the seller doesn't want to be caught making an incorrect statement. The GI ad has enough good photos to show the caliber and I believe the Japanese provenance. I too am a great fan of the Japanese shipped S&W revolvers. Great snag OutAtTheEdge.

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Mike Maher #283

Thanks Masterpiece, that's what I was wondering (and could have worded better).

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Ain't This Fun Though?