Thanks in advance to everyone who may be able to identify this bullet mould / reloading tool. I am unable to locate any markings at all (no maker’s mark and no indication of caliber). Any information would be much appreciated. I intend to sell this item once I know how to accurately describe it. The modern .38 Special round is shown in the photos for reference. What is it worth?

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Additional photos added.

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Response #1: I don't know------but!

Given both a round nose bullet and round ball cavity, my knee-jerk reaction (as a collector of S&W target guns) was one of the NM #3 Targets (The first ever with adjustable sights as standard equipment.)---those made almost exclusively for either 32-44 S&W or 38-44 S&W---ammunition for both of which was available in standard form (round nose bullet) or gallery load (round ball). SO--------if this mold is for either .32 or .38 caliber projectiles, I'm sticking to that.

As an aside, which might add to the guessing process, the respective weights go like this: The .32 round nose bullet should be 83 grains, the round ball should be 50 grains-----------146 grains and 70 grains respectively for the .38.

That's the end---all I got!

Well, maybe not after paying more attention to the pictures--especially the one showing the .38 Special case. The 38-44 round can be duplicated using 357 Maximum brass------so that narrows the field considerably---if I do say so myself!!

Ralph Tremaine

And having narrowed the field, here's what's what for the 38-44: The powder load for the round nose bullet is 20 grains (black powder), 6 grains for the ball. Both projectiles to be seated within the case----deep within the case for the round ball. I don't know diddly about 357 Maximum brass (the length), but the case length should be such that the case mouth is flush with the mouth of the chamber----as in zero throat. That for the early guns---with 1 7/16" cylinders. Needless to say, they'll work okay in the later guns (1 9/16") cylinders, but the zero throat length was the whole idea of that round in the early guns---which set records yet to be broken----or so I'm told.

That’s a Smith & Wesson manufactured reloading tool that was introduced with their IMPROVED RELOADING KIT in approximately 1887.

As Ralph mentioned the ball is for gallery shooting and the 38 conical is the M&P ( Military & Police) that was introduced in 1899. So your example is from a late kit post 1900. The kits were discontinued in about 1912. Primarily because they could not be adapted to smokeless loading. All the kits were for black powder loading only.

This tool was part of a boxed kit that contained a wood mallet, black powder scoops, two loading dies, a plunger,etc.

Collectors call it a peanut mold due to the shape of the wood grips. They were made in 32 S&W, 38 S&W, 44 S&W and all the Target calibers.

Nice find.

Murph

Murph.
If all that is factual info then you are the man.
If you just made it up...then you are still the man

Thanks iby,
It’s an addiction. I openly admit it. If I don’t learn something new every day I get the shakes.

Murph

FWIW, this is what a complete, boxed set of Smith & Wesson reloading tools from the late period of manufacture looks like. This set is labeled for the .38 Military and Police cartridge, known for much of its existence as the .38 Smith & Wesson Special Cartridge (emblazoned on the barrel of millions of S&W revolvers as ".38 Smith & Wesson Special Ctge."), and known more familiarly today simply as the .38 Special.

Jim

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cool!.........l

Just wanted to punch this info into this thread. I have been researching the American Indians actually reloading on the frontier. I had read a few modern opinions and decided to research the subject.
Sure enough the U.S. Cavalry witnessed in several battles during the Indian wars the Indians were picking up spent shells and they later found out that through trade posts the Indians were obtaining reloading kits and reloading their own rounds. It is factual. It’s not a modern opinion. It was also documented from many interviews performed by Indian agents pre-1900 interviewing Indians from several tribes. So reloading has a very rich history in this country that dates back to early cartridge firearms. Even earlier with muzzle loading and cap & ball firearms.

The tools the Indians would have been using to reload cartridge guns are seen in photo 1. These very basic kits were available in 1875 in large numbers and would have been available at the various trade posts throughout the country.

They could have been reloading even earlier than 1875 since early Berdan primer tools were available in 1871.
See photo 2 of the earliest tools known circa 1871 that reloaded for the Smith and Wesson 44 American and 44 Russian.

I’ve seen several authentic early photo’s of American Indians with 44 American and Russian revolvers on their belt, in their hand, lying next to them, etc.

Murph

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Murph.
If you get a chance, please share pics of the Indians with the #3's

iby,
This is one of my favorites from my ready file. My hard copies are at another location. I have group shots showing 44 Americans, lots of conversions, etc.
What really is kinda alarming is how well armed they were. The common belief is they were poorly armed with bow&arrow etc. or old flintlocks?
Baloney! Most of my photos during the Indian Wars they had Winchesters! And a lot of them are wearing 50 round bandoliers!
They were well armed in most of the photos I have. With both pistol and rifle. Some even have Winchester 45/70 & 45/60 repeaters!
The fact that they were reloading kept them not only supplied with ammo but fresh ammo!
I wouldn’t be surprised if the women and children were doing the reloading?

Murph

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I thought it was a Gunkulator...

I love these early photos. I have always wondered how the caliber has been determined. I'm not familiar with the Allin conversion so there must be a way to tell the caliber by the photo? Or were all Allin conversions .50-70? If so, what makes this an Allin? This is totally new to me, and I'd like a Cliff Notes education.

__________________
Mike Maher #283

I have read that Indians also had a way of reloading rim fire cartridges such as the .44rf. Can anyone expand on this?

Tom,
I’ve read that also but I haven’t been able to find any historic documents that prove the Indians reloaded rimfire cartridges. They most definitely reloaded on the plains. It’s clearly documented by Cavalry officers in 1876.

What I’ve read from modern analysts is the 44 rimfire cartridges found at the Little Big Horn were found with multiple strikes on the head of the case. “Suggesting they were reloaded”? More than likely those were mis-fires that were fired twice or three times to get them to go off. In fact I have looked at cases found at the little big horn and a lot of those 44 rf cases are older cases. Remember the 44 rf was first introduced in the early 1860’s and the little big horn was 1876 so old cases/rounds were definitely involved in that battle. Were they reloaded? Unknown.

However, it is possible since boxed stick matches were readily available on the plains in 1870. It is possible that they used the sulfur tip and manufactured primer material.

Here is the problem from an avid reloading tool collector? Where did they get the bullets? The 44 rimfire is a .440 outside lubricated bullet. I have never seen a bullet mold for that round “except” for the one I posted. That very early brass reloading tool would reload for a 44 Smith & Wesson American revolver “and” the 44 Henry/66 Winchester rifles.

That early brass tool was available in 1871 and loaded for the outside lubricated 44 American which is the same bullet design as the 44 Henry. So I guess it’s possible but extremely difficult to prove. I think you’d have to find one in the dirt at a proven Indian camp.

All the center fire rounds were readily available in both tools and molds so absolutely no doubt they reloaded those.

It’s also possible that the Indians used ball ammo in the 44rf cases or shot? Multiple undersized ball and shot those. I suppose that is possible but extremely difficult to prove.

Murph

I have done it.
.357 Maximum case length is 1.605" so it has to be trimmed to cylinder length, 1 7/16 = 1.4375".

Maximum case diameter is less than .38-44 so there is some expansion a la .38 Special in reamed .38 S&W chamber. Nothing serious at target load levels. I resized with a .38 Super die.


Unscrupulous traders selling Hostiles liquor and breechloaders was a staple of western adventures.

Trapdoor calibers:

1866 Allen Conversion 56 or 58 RF

1870 Springfield, Rifle 50-70, Carbine 50-55

1873 Springfield, Rifle 45-70-500, Carbine 45-70-405

1888 prototype/pressure guns, 30-40 US (maybe 10 guns)

There were Cadet Rifles in 50-55 Carbine Unknown quantity.

Ivan