I have a question regarding the front sights on the S&W .22/.32 HFT Bekeart model revolvers. Did all of those manufactured in 1911 (or the first 1,000 run) come with the Paine Bead front sight? Or have any variations been noted with the Patridge front sight? I appreciate any knowledge you experts can share. Thanks!

We have but one "expert" on these guns, and "expert" should not be construed to mean he knows absolutely everything----only that you should not bet any significant sums of your hard earned money that he doesn't!

Folks who would even consider such a wager gave rise to that old saying about "A fool and his money are soon parted!"

That said, given you had the wisdom to include the term "Beakert" in your title, odds are he'll be along directly-----possibly before I finish with this peck-peck-peck.

Ralph Tremaine

And as a belated aside, you've selected the wrong section of the forum for your inquiry---it belongs in the early handejector section. The moderators, being of the "eagle eye" sort, may take note and move it for you.

Mine; #525 has the Paine Bead

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Terry
SWCA, SWHS, IWLA, NRA

Mine is marked W.F.Sheard

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The Paine bead front sight with U notch rear was standard until approximately 1924 when the partridge front blade with sq notch rear became the new standard.

However anything could be ordered anytime during production including partridge before 1924 or any aftermarket custom sights. Only a factory letter will authenticate if other than the standard sights for any production period were factory installed.

I’d have to check the database specifically for 1911 production but there are later Bekeart guns with factory optional sights. Our resident expert James will likely be along to comment.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The bottom line of all this what's standard/optional/usual/unusual is covered by Jinks' oft used explanation---goes like this: "They would do anything anybody would pay them to do."-----as in "They aimed to please."-----and a letter will almost always cover any deviation from the norm----most especially if/when there's an extra charge that shows up on the invoice.

Ralph Tremaine

Like donadler, mine has the Sheard front sight, and also like his, it looks to have been messed with sometime in its life...









... for reference, it is SN 138337 and it shipped on June 30, 1911 to Phillip Bekeart Co, San Francisco, CA. The letter states that it shipped with a Patridge front sight and was one of 59 so configured in its shipment.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Does it have a sq notch that would have come with the Patridge front sight or U notch in the rear?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

It has the U notch rear sight. Here are a few more photos of the sights...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Is that significant holster wear at the end of the barrel? You usually see wear like that at the end of the barrel of a Colt Single Action Army revolver and not on a .22/32 HFT revolver.

It is obvious that the front sight has been tinkered with. However, it might still be the original sight, and I think that a U notch rear sight is more likely with a (beaded) Paine front sight, whereas a Patridge front sight may be more commonly paired with a square notch rear sight.

That blade seems way off to the right......Ben

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Cogito, ergo BOOM!...

Thank you all for the replies. I realize that anything was possible for a price, but in 1911 I suspect most of these awesome revolvers were mass produced with standard features and only a very small number were custom ordered. But, never say never. I'll submit my gun for a Letter of Authenticity to confirm.

The Bekeart model was essentially a special model until it became regular production in 1915 not as the Bekeart model. So I’m not surprised to see a group of the 1911 era production ordered with optional sight for that period.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I've never shot this gun, but yes, it is way off to the right. I only noticed it this morning when I took the photos. I grabbed my dinky screwdrivers and I did not have one that fit. At some point, I will run down a screwdriver that fits and re-center it...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Richard, to make sure I understand, your gun has a Sheard front sight, but your factory letter states it was shipped with a patridge front sight? Being the novice I am, I didn't understand. Sorry!

That is correct. Here's a copy of page 2 of the letter:

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Yes, it is holster wear (lots of holster wear) and probably some treated corrosion that caused some minor pitting.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Richard, thanks for that clarification. I suppose I never considered some guns were shipped in a particular configuration, but were changed AFTER delivery. So, that confirms that some early guns (1911) did have the patridge front sights. But, does that affect the gun's value, given it is unknown when the sight might have been changed? I appreciate you sharing this information. This makes me even more anxious to obtain a Letter of Authenticity. Thanks again!

I had an early (1907) .32-20 target that had a Sheard front sight like the ones shown.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

My Bekeart, sn.163594 and #1349, shipped May1912 has a Paine black bead front sight.

Richard

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Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

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Regards,
Bruce

Sorry I'm a little late to this party but I've been crazy busy working on my house and Ralph thanks for the glowing accolades. I am by no means an expert but merely an obsessed observer.

The first shipment of 1,050 guns does contain some with the Patridge front sight and the square notch rear.

The letter posted by RKMesa states that his gun shipped with the Patridge front sight so it should have the square notch rear. The letter contains an error in that it states that this gun was part of a 59 gun shipment. Based on subsequent research we now know that the 6-30-1911 shipment was for 60 units and not 59. The original count in the early books states a total of 292 guns to Bekeart and we now know this to be 294 as follows:

The five shipments were: 6-7-1911 30, 6-22-1911 60, 6-28-1911 60, 6-30-1911 60, 8-31-1911 50 and 10-13-1911 34. Total of 294.

I own 138289 that shipped in the 6-30 shipment that has a Patridge front sight and I see 138649 from that same shipment also having the Patridge front sight.

In addition the first run of 1,050 guns, as stated, Bekeart only received 294 with the rest shipping to other distributors of the day as early as 6-16-1911 only 9 days after Bekeart's first shipment on 6-7-1911.

As I have stated several times before, this begs the question as to the story that Bekeart was forced to place an order for 1,000 guns in order to convince S&W to build a .22 caliber revolver on their larger .32 caliber I frame.

If this story is true then somehow either Bekeart or S&W realized early on that he could not sell all 1,050 of the first guns produced as shipments to other dealers began only 9 days later.

I would love to find correspondence between Bekeart and S&W from this time frame but so far nothing has surfaced.

We may never know the true story behind the origin of this revolver but we can only hope that someday something surfaces.

If anyone owns one of these revolvers, especially those with the left stock bottom imprint number, I would love to add the details to the database. I do not keep any owner information and only store details about the gun.

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James Redfield
LM #497

James, thank you for sharing that information. I recently purchased my Bekeart and will PM you at some point with the SN on the gun and number on the grip.

General question:

Patridge = square notch rear sight
Paine = U notch rear sight

Generalization.

But is this ALWAYS true as shipped from the factory, or not? Even though it makes sense.

If so, then if we see a Paine front sight paired with a square notch rear sight or a Patridge front sight paired with a U notch rear sight, we can assume a non factory alteration occurred?

That would be my understanding. Since the Paine or Sheard bead front sights are very thin by nature it would make sense to have a matching width rear sight or centering would become a mere guess. It is also understandable that if the wider Patridge front sight sight was installed one would need the wider rear sight as looking at it through the narrow U shaped sight would require guessing when it was centered.

The Sheard and IIRC the Marble front sights were available from S&W and I'm guessing could be installed by request. Pinning in the Paine or the Sheard bead would not really require any additional time or expense so probably done for free.

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James Redfield
LM #497

James, I sent you an email with my details. Thanks

Nothing received......

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James Redfield
LM #497

Sorry about that! I sent you a PM.

I have 2 hft’s 1 #163507 shipped in 1912 with square notch and the other #279472 with U notch. Both have the Paine front site. The earlier gun has the 2 screw grip and the other service grip. The early gun has a number on the grip 1307 and was delivered to Hibbarb, Spencer, and Bartlet in Chicago.

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Can you post detailed photographs of the front sights and which front sight is on the same revolver as the rear sight depicted? Presumably, we would see some evidence that the revolver with the square notch has a replaced front sight, this having previously been a Patridge. Maybe…or maybe not.

Yes additional photos would be great. Is there debris in the left hand notch? It almost looks like a U notch. Square notches are typically wider than that.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Screwdrivers that fit---and are actually easy and effective to use (as opposed to "Jeweler's Screwdrivers" which can only be held with fingers) may be had at Lowes. The name is Precision Screwdriver Set---the part number is 0525844. The price is dirt cheap, suggesting they're junk. I've been using mine for a loooooooooooong time, and they remain "good to go". You'll find two of the four flat blade tools included will fit any/all of the pre-war sight screws to be found.

Ralph Tremaine

Speaking of pre-war sight screws, those which attach the sight assembly to the top strap of pre-war hand ejectors. ALL of them seem to be frozen in place. Here's how to get them "unfrozen": Elevate the sight carrier so as to expose the channel for the sight tang underneath. Secure the gun with the front end lower than the hind end---stick the grip frame in a vise. Pour a dose of your favorite "unsticker" juice into the channel. (Kroil's the best.) To state the obvious, the "unsticker" juice is going to flow unobstructed DIRECTLY to the screw threads---and do its thing--and it's going to do it a damn sight faster than if you'd poured the juice on the screw head---again---and again----and again!

"Try it, you'll like it!"

Both guns have same front site but maybe I’m using the wrong name. And a closeup of the U

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	EB03C90D-8C54-46F1-A37E-B7683834493C.jpg (64.5 KB, 12 views)

Those front sights are both of the Paine style.

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James Redfield
LM #497

here are the photos of mine"

Attached Images

22 Bekeart.jpg (68.7 KB, 9 views)

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Terry
SWCA, SWHS, IWLA, NRA