Does steel get brittle with age?

klondike

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Whenever the discussion of shooting an antique Smith happens it is always mentioned that the steel may have gotten brittle with age. I understand that any steel flexed repeatedly may develop stress fractures and failure. But is it true that a gun just sitting in a box for 150 years will have steel that has become more brittle over time?
 
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Whenever the discussion of shooting an antique Smith happens it is always mentioned that the steel may have gotten brittle with age. I understand that any steel flexed repeatedly may develop stress fractures and failure. But is it true that a gun just sitting in a box for 150 years will have steel that has become more brittle over time?
 
Klondike - I belive that the steel doesn't get more brittle, just that the manufacturing processes of yesteryear did not produce the same strength and quality as modern processes do.

In fact, IIRC, what did in the Titanic was that the hull plates were far more brittle in the cold waters of the North Atlantic than intended.

Similarly, much older firearms were not built as strongly as modern smokeless powders require for safety...
 
I'm not a metallurgist, so take what I say with a huge grain of salt, but this is my take on it:
Generally, no; age shouldn't affect the ductility of steel....but...(and there's going to be a lot of buts)...it depends mostly on the alloy, the environment that its been exposed to, the geometry of the component (stress risers), and the stresses that it's had to endure. Mild steel will certainly fatigue and crack if exposed to cyclic stresses beyond an endurance limit; most guns operate with stress levels well under that. Some alloys are susceptible to intergranular stress corrosion cracking that is occasionally mistaken for fatigue when exposed to certain chemicals (chlorides and fluorides especially). Higher levels of carbon in steel tends to make it stronger, but also more brittle.
Me, I've got an old Springfield 1903 that I will not shoot because its receiver and/or bolt may have been improperly heat treated during original manufacture. Some things aren't worth the risk of ownership and that Springfield is something that eventually I'm going to have to safely dispose of.
Anyways, cast fabrications also tend to be brittle; forged parts are always stronger than cast, yet typically are more ductile. Best advice regarding antique gun metal is to read up on what you've got (or are contemplating acquiring) for metallurgical issues; and do not trust what you're not sure of either by proof testing or by anecdotal evidence (i.e. there's still a lot of old S&W's and Colt's around that haven't come apart with normal pressure loads).
As for that old 1903, I've heard that only 1 (of hundreds of thousands) early 1903 Springfield failed catastrophically due to the heat treatment issue (bolt apparently went through somebody's skull), but that's enough for me to make it into a permanent wall hanger. I'm pretty sure that uncle Sam 86'd a bunch of them as well. -S2
 
I'm not a metallurgist, so take what I say with a huge grain of salt, but this is my take on it:
Speedo2, You certainly sound like you know more than I do.
I believe you are agreeing that outside of stress flexing and corrosion, a chunk of antique steel does not get more brittle with age.
 
Regarding the early M1903 Springfield problem with brittle receivers, it was decided that it would economically infeasible to replace all of them during the 1920s. The US Marines never did replace their issued M1903 rifles, and continued to use them into WWII.
 
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Thanks for the link Gazz. Excellent read!

I still shoot this original and unaltered August 1913 produced Rock Island '03 on occasion and have shot a single high-power match with it just for fun. I use moderate hand loads and once fired brass and don't worry about it. It's really accurate from the bench rest. I'll be sad when my eyes are too old to effectively see its sights and that may not be too far off.

I'm really interested in steels and heat treat in Smith & Wesson and Colt revolvers for all of the 20th century. There's precious little reliable information out there on the subject.
 
Some of the guns that I shoot are antiques. I have a Trapdoor Springfield that was made in 1878. I handload the cartridges with black powder and 405 grain soft lead, hollow base bullets. This is the type of cartridge that was originally used, and I don't believe the low pressure will over-stress the metal in the rifle.

Another rifle is my Winchester 1892, made in 1893. I load those cartridges with 200 grain soft lead bullets over a mild charge of 700X. Again, I'm not trying to over-stress the metal.

I respect the age of the rifles, and I just shoot them for fun. For serious shooting, I have a Browning Model 1886 in .45-70; a modern rifle with modern steel. The cartridges I load for my Browning, if I tried them in my trapdoor, I would be eating chunks of antique steel.
 
There is one age related situation which you should definitely pay attention to. Twist steel, (Damascus), shot gun barrels can definitely get weaker with age, due to corrosion. These barrels were not real strong back in the day, and may have weakened even further. They were made of steel and iron welded together, and while quite attractive, are not very strong.

Steel quality made big jumps forward at several points in time. Older arms probably deserve a decent semi-retirement.
 
I to have a 1903 made in 1914.I shoot it.by 1929 all low numbers guns that broke were gone and no more broke.some were due to using 8 mm mauser ammo in them.
Try 13 gr red dot and a 311291 or like.thats my load in military guns.
 
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