Did S&W ever make the Victory model in .38 Special? A gun I inspected today had the following stamped on the right hand side of what appeared to be a 5 inch barrel:

"38 S7W Special CTG"

I believe it was a 5-screw gun. The serial number was C2252** and the gun had a lanyard ring installed.

Please can some help me with this information as well as an estimated date of manufacture?

With thanks, Racingsnake

the short answer is if the firearm serial number starts with a "C" it is post war and not a Victory.

popgun

Are you SURE that this was a Victory model, not a plain jane M&P?

If it has a five-inch barrel (did you measure it, and can you tell a four-inch bbl. from a five-inch?), it should be in .38/200 caliber. Unless it was re-chambered after the war (many were, for US surplus sales), it will NOT fire .38 Special ammo. If it has been re-chambered, it is unsafe, and cases may crack on firing.

Can you post a photo? Do not fire the gun until you are SURE of the correct ammo.

US Victory Models are in.38 Special, but have four-inch barrels; rarely two-inch.

As Popgun noted, the "C" prefix in the serial number suggests a postwar commercial gun, which is all to the good, unless you collect military firearms.

Finally, if you see a military five-incher, it will usually have British Commonwealth proof and sales markings.

T-Star

I unfortunately did not have my camera with me but I am certain of the serial number and the barrel markings. I will need to measure the barrel. The gun is an ex South African Police gun but does not have any British proof marks. Perhaps it is just a regular M&P gun?

Was the M&P ever made in 38S&W?

Ok now for the long answer. Victory models fall into several categories.

#1) Pre-Victory, these were in Brit. 30-200 cal (38 S&W) these were sent to Briton by S&W as recompense for a failed Semi-Auto carbine contract.
Most were Blued w/checkered stocks and had 5 inch barrels. These may not have a "V" prefix to the serial number.

#2) Lend-lease Victory models, these were also Brit. 30-200 cal (38 S&W) but were Parkerized or Magic Black finished. These will be U.S Property marked. Some, but not all will have British Commonwealth military unit marks or proof marks (some did go to South Africa in 38 special). Again these were 5 inch barrels. These will have a "V" or "SV" prefix to the serial number.

#3) U.S. Service Victory models were Also U.S. Property Marked and were 38 Special. Some were Unit or Branch Marked (U.S Navy). Most were 4 inch but few were 2 inch barrels. These will have a "V" or "SV" prefix to the serial number.

#4) Defense Plant Victory models, these were used for civilian guards in the U.S. these mostly were unmarked, but can have rack numbers or company names on them. they can be 38 special or 38 S&W with 5 inch or 4 inch barrels. These will have a "V" or "SV" prefix to the serial number.

#5) Postwar Victories are leftover frames used to make commercial revolvers after the war. These will have a "SV" prefix to the serial number.
Finally, the "C" prefix started in 1948 after the last Victory frames were used up.

Please note that there are exceptions to the above, thats why it's fun to collect the Victory.

popgun

My 5" C prefix M&P also has a lanyard ring. It was once carried by a LEO motorcycle officer back in the early 1950's. It is also .38 special. Just because it has the ring doesn't mean it is a Victory.

I will add that Popgun is almost correct except that he twice typed .30 where he means .38/200 (.38 S&W.)

And prior to April, 1942, guns going to the Commonwealth might have four, five, or six-inch barrels. I've seen all, and many of the ones for South Africa did have four-inch barrels. Digi-Shots on this board has one, and I think another member may have. They will often have a "U" with the Broad Arrow property mark within stamped on them. The U was for Union of South Africa. After about 1960, this became Republic of South Africa, but that is beyond the time frame of our story.

After April, 1942, the Commonwealth guns were made only with five-inch barrels, and the grips were smooth walnut. Prior to then, the British and other Commonwealth guns were essentially just M&P's chambered for the .38/200 cartridge, with lanyard rings standard. They had blued finishes and checkered grips, with silver S&W medllions at the top of the grip panels.

All true S&W US Victory Models for official use were in .38 Special, save that some .38/200 guns were furnished to the OSS, for reasons never made clear. They had dull black/gray finishes, and tool marks were often not polished out properly, to speed wartime production. These were standard issue to Navy and Marine pilots and many other Naval personnel had them. (JFK had one aboard PT-109.)

Plant guards may have had some that were overruns at times from British contracts, but most of theirs were also in .38 Special.

By the early 1960's, many of these Victory Models, some commercial M&P's and some equivalent Colts (Commando and Official Police) were transferred to the USAF, until that agency had acquired enough Combat Masterpiece .38's to meet all their needs. I don't know what became of these after that time.

It is important to note that during and after WW II, standard commercial guns were serving alongside Commando Colt and Victory Model S&W's. Colt also supplied their .38 guns to Britain, but not in as large numbers as S&W did. Well over 568,000 Commonwealth S&W's were shipped, and they are among the more common military handguns of all wars.

Keep in mind, too, that Colt was furnishing their .45 automatic to the British, for Commando and clandestine troops, like SOE. The Colt .45 was the standard Commando handgun for Army units. (Royal Marine commandos may have used other models. Ian Fleming saw many .455 Webleys among them.)

This is a good summary, and for further reference, it may be best to acquire the basic S&W books and read any books by men whose wartime service involved using handguns. One interesting one is, "We Die Alone", by David Howarth, a Norwegian resistance fighter. (Colt .32 auto.) Another is, "The Hundred Days of Lt. MacHorton" (Colt .38/200).

Alas, many soldiers, sailors, airmen didn't specifically mention make or model numbers of their pistols. Col. David Niven just mentioned his "Webley." And one SAS man called his .38 a "Smith & Weston". Obviously, his memory was flawed, or he didn't read the name on the barrel too carefully! (Or, author Virgina Cowles, who recorded his oral recollections, misspelled it in, "Stirling's Desert Raiders".)

If your gun was SAP issue, it may well be a postwar commercial gun, Model 11. The only difference from Model 10 was that Model 11 was in .38/200 caliber. This being after the wartime emergency, those guns had the commercial blue finish. BUT... be aware that the US Post Office bought some .22 M&P's and THEY were also designated as Model 11! I trust that this is sufficiently confusing?

Perusal of wartime photos will also reveal many handguns.
Note that US Navy and Marine aviators prior to mid or later 1942 usually had Colt .45 autos, the .38's just beginning to reach them in quantity after the Battle of Midway. You can tell this in pictures in, for instance, "National Geographic."

I hope this was of help.

Oh: Charlie S. has a point. In fact, .38 Special M&P/Model 10's with five-inch barrels and lanyard loops were the standard sidearm of the RCMP from 1954- until some time in the 1990's.

T-Star

yes I miss typed, thanks T-Star

Most of the S African Police issue guns were indeed 38/200 or 38 S&W but this gun's barrel is definately stamped "38 S&W Special CTG" - with the C prefix serial number I guess it must have been a commecial gun issued after the Victories?

Were the early M&P commercial guns ever manufactured in 38 S&W?

I'll see if I can get a picture posted later today.

Regards, Racingsnake

To further confuse, the .22 M&P became the Model 45, not Model 11, when S&W went to model numbers in 1957. It was, however, serial numbered with the other M&P models like the 10 and 11.

The OP's gun would be a early 1950's M&P(or pre-Model 10 if you prefer), not a Victory, as popgun noted.

Bob

I have a victory model that I think someone has changed the cylinder out and put a 38 special one in.

The 5" barrel and frame serial number match v 234xxx.

Inside where you normally find the Model number on the newer S&W's is a number 60483 which match's the crane serial number.

The cylinder itself has a c and then a number 91495 and it appears to be blued and the rest of the revolver is dull grey or parkerized.

Has the United states property marking on it and on the right side of the barrel it is 38 S&W ctg.

No British markings at all.

By the V on the butt there looks like a M.D. and a flaming bomb.

Now the weird part. There is no way that you can get a 38 S&W cartridge to chamber in this revolver, it is to fat. I have other enfields-Webley and they work just fine in them. If I take a 38 special cartridge it fits perfectly in the chambers.

I slugged the barrel and it came out at .358 which mystifies me because I would think that a 38 S&W barrel would be closer to .361 as my enfields and Webley are.

I will try and get some pictures up latter today or tomorrow.

__________________
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. -Benjamin Franklin, 1759

I suspect that Racingsnake's gun is a police issue that has nothing to do with Victory Models procured by the South African military during WW II.

Until the apartheid issue made it difficult for the nation to obtain American equipment, South African cops used S&W revolvers and US police cars.

They went eventually to 9mm Walthers, with some PPK's for undercover cops and later adopted the Z-88, a locally-made Beretta M-92, I think.

I believe that they now use a lot of Glocks. Sanctions were dropped after the blacks took power, never mind how poorly they use it!

Hi Texas Star...you are quite correct on your history.

During the 50's and 60's the SA police were issued with S&W and Webley revolvers, most of which were in 38S&W - I am sure there are others who could add more detail than me, since I was in the same police force much later - in the 1980's. I have recently come across a number of .38 special M&P guns, which I would like to research further as I suspect they were bought in limited numbers when stocks of the Victory model were depleted prior to the conversion over to 9mm Para.

During the 1970's and early 80's uniformed officers were issued with Walther P38 pistols and the detective branches and female officers with the Walther PPK as you pointed out. In the mid 80's Beretta 92's and then 92F's were issued, followed in the early 90's with the Z88.

The 50's and 60's were also very interesting as far as American vehicles were concerned. Neighbourhood patrol vehicles were Ford F100 pick-ups and closed in panel vans. Some Dodge and Chev pick-ups were also used. The 'rapid response' stations used Studebaker Lark's. A great era of guns and cars!Our police were disciplined, smart and professional. Sadly that is no longer the case.

Regards, Racingsnake

RacingSnake-

Thanks. I've sometimes found SA publications, and read a series of novels about a couple of cops there, written by James McClure. In those, he mentioned the guns and the cars.

The books have been available in the US, and some libraries probably have them. Not sure if they're still in print.

Is the Z88 still Army issue there? I don't think it's ever been sold here, although I understand that it's of very good quality.

T-Star

The Z88 is still in use by the police - not sure about the military. It was an identical copy of the Beretta 92F series and was very well made.

Regards, Racingsnake

I have a "Model 10 ?" that has UK proofs, is in 38 Special with all numbers matching including the cylinder and extractor star, lanyard ring but has a 4" barrel with a roughly 2.5 inch silver soldered Parker and Hale ramp front sight. The number tracks to roughly 1940 and it is proofed as mentioned above for a 4 ton squared 38 Special. However, the barrel is marked 38S&W CTG. Unusual? Dave_n

Not so unusual as Parker Hale did many post war Victory conversions.
I also have one converted to 38 special but finished in Nickel.
It also has the Parker Hale front site unit ,
All numbers match, but the V on the heel and all British proofs including Property of USA on top strap have been buffed off.
The lanyard ring has been removed and hole plugged as well.

This one has no US Property markings, buffed or otherwise, barrel number matches cylinder, not a bored out cylinder as it will not take a 38S&W (I have many Enfields, Webleys and Model 11s in 38 S&W, so reload for both 38 calibres). Still has British proofs including the broad arrow. Number tracks to 1940ish. Dave_n