Hello

Here is my S&W M&P "Victory Model" revolver. I got this shortly before Christmas last year. It is in "Shooter/Reenactor" grade...LOL, not the best looking, but does all right the few times I have had the chance to fire it so far.

It is the British .380" (aka .380"/200 or .38 S&W) calibre version. It has a 5" barrel, which from what I have seen, is standard to the revolvers supplied to British and British Empire Forces.

The revolver's number is V1669 (minus the last two numbers, it has a six digit number, excluding the V). If anyone would have any idea what year this revolver was made, I'd be very grateful to know.

Also in the photo is an empty box for 12 Canadian-made .380" MK.IIz cartridges. I think the .380" MkII and Mk.IIz cartridges were the later 178 grain (or close to that weight) metal jacketed ball rounds. I think the .380" Mk.I cartridges were the original .380"/200 rounds.

Other than when this revolver might have been made, I have one more question.
What is the "Correct" British title for the S&W Victory Model revolver? Is the term "Victory Model" the actual name?, or is that a term used by collectors?

Thank you
Mark

Victory was an offical name

[QUOTE=TomcatPC;1103342] The revolver's number is V1669 (minus the last two numbers, it has a six digit number, excluding the V). If anyone would have any idea what year this revolver was made, I'd be very grateful to know.

Other than when this revolver might have been made, I have one more question. What is the "Correct" British title for the S&W Victory Model revolver? Is the term "Victory Model" the actual name?, or is that a term used by collectors?

Thank you
Mark [QUOTE]

Hello Mark:

Before the factory began using the term Victory Model the revolver was known as the "British Service Revolver". The appellation "Victory Model" was coined by the S&W factory during the War. It was not known officially by that name during WW2 by British/Commonwealth Forces. The British referred to their .38-200 Smiths as "Pistol, Revolver, Smith & Wesson, .38 inch."

As to your revolver's shipping date, I can give you a very good estimate on that from the Victory Model Database which my pal LWCmdr45 and I maintain. All we need is the complete serial number, the marking on the left top strap and the markings on the butt. You can post that information here or email me at [email protected], and remove the NOSPAM, of course.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Old editions of Smith & Smith's Small Arms of the World give that data, but my copy is too recent to give that long name. I think it was, "Pistol, Revolver No 2, cal .380, Smith & Wesson."

Sorry that I couldn't do better.

T-Star

Hello again

Thank you for the response so far. I have heard the term "British Service Revolver" used before.

I have also heard the term "Pistol, Revolver, No.2 cal. .380, Smith & Wesson" as well.

What confuses me about that term is:, I was under the impression that the .380" Enfield Revolver was the "No.2" Pistol. I think the full title is something like "Pistol, Revolver, No.2 Mk.I", along with latter versions of that revolver being the "No2. MkI*" and "No.2 Mk.I**".

I don't think I have "Pistol, Revolver, Smith & Wesson, .38 inch" before.

I will do more checking by using both those terms.

Something I find interesting also, is the term .380" and .38".
I use the term .380" because that is what is on all the boxes of cartridges that I have seen.

But...I have also seen a WWII British manual titled "Small Arms Training, Volume I, Pamphlet No. II, Pistol (.38 inch)". So, there I have seen both the term .380" and .38" both used on British WWII containers and books.

The reason I am asking all of this is because I am involved with WWII Reenacting and wold like to have the correct term to write for a description.
Thanks for all the help so far.
Mark

Hello again

I'm back with more information to see if we can get a date sussed out for my Victory Model. (My gut feeling is 1942, but could be wrong).

The serial number is: V166998
The left top strap is marked: "United States Property"
Markings on the butt, other than the number: US Ordnance Corp insignia (aka "Flaming Bomb/Grenade") and "GHD" (forget who his actual name is)?

The other markings, the S&W Factory markings on the barrel and sideplate, are pretty much self-explainatory.
Also, the Birmingham Nitro Proof ("Crown over "BNP"") markings on the frame, barrel, and each chamber on the cylinder, and a couple of War-time British acceptance/proof markings I know about already. Along with the "Broad Arrow" British Govt. Property Marking just under the "Made in USA" markings on the right side. Also a "Factory Thorough Repair" FTR marking is on the sideplate, but there is no FTR date given.

Like I wrote, I do know what the "Broad Arrow" ( /l\ ) mark means, but this one is different. There is a "38 K" marking "with-in" the Broad Arrow. It sort of looks like this /38 l K\ , if that makes sense? Yes, I know .38 cal., K-Frame revolver, just never seen this one before.

It appears to me, to be the standard British Broad Arrow, not the "C around the /l\" for Canada, nor the "N /l\ Z" for New Zealand, or "D /l\ D" for Australia, nor India, South Africa, etc.

Thanks
Mark

Mark, welcome to the forum!

I believe US Army correspondence referred to these as "Revolver, caliber .38/200 Smith and Wesson Military and Police, Square Butt with Lanyard Swivel and Black Magic finish".

GHD stands for the inspector Guy H. Drewry, Chief of the Small Arms Branch in the Ordnance Dept. during the prewar years (June 17, 1942 - July 15, 1945). (ref: U.S. Handguns of WWII, by Charles Pate).

The FTR stamping sounds like it might be Australian.

If I had to take a guess as to the shipping date of yours, it would be late 1942 or early 1943.

Hope this helps...

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

I thought Col. René R. Studler was Chief of the Small Arms Development Branch, Ordnance Corps. He saw the M1 Carbine and M3 grease gun through development and production. Col. Guy H. Drewry was supervisor of the ordnance district that included Springfield, MA, where Smith & Wesson was located. Col Drewry's responsibilities included inspection of weapons produced in his district.

Somebody who knows what they're talking about please feel free to offer any corrections to this post.

I am not familiar with Col. Rene R. Studler and his responsibilities.

I do have a copy of Charles W. Pate's book, U.S. Handguns of World War II. Mr. Pate is a very respected author and collector of Smith & Wesson handguns. He is also a member of the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association. As noted in my posting, my comment and information on Guy H. Drewry was taken directly from Mr. Pate's book.

Col. Drewry served as Deputy Chief (June 17, 1942 to July 6, 1942) and Chief (July 6, 1942 to July 15, 1945) of the Springfield Ordnance District. (ref. page 47 U.S. Handguns of WWII).

I believe Mr. Pate is "somebody" who knows what they're talking about.

__________________
Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Hi Mark:

I am not certain that Great Britain/Commonwealth selected one particular nomenclature for the S&W .38-200 revolvers and stuck with it from 1940 through 1945. Consider this:

1. The manual on these revolvers published by the British Army Staff during the War was entitled "Notes on Pistols, Revolver, Smith & Wesson, .38 in."

2. Roy Jinks, the S&W factory historian, has described these revolvers in his book Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 as ".38/200 British Service Revolver (Model K-200) (S&W Pistol Number 2).

3. Australian author Ian Skennerton in his book on the Enfield .38-200 revolvers mentions the Smiths as "Smith & Wesson No. 2 K-200".

4. Canadian author Clive Law in his book on Canadian Military handguns cites a military document mentioning "Pistols, Revolver, .38 inch Smith & Wesson."

So, take your pick.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Mark:

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that the "Small Arms Training, Volume I, Pamphlet No. 11, Pistol (.38 inch)" that I have in my collection (1942 edition) does not mention the Smith & Wesson revolvers. It refers exclusively to the Enfield .38-200 revolvers.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Mark:

With the additional information you provided I can tell you, based on the Victory Model Database which LWCmdr45 and I maintain, that your revolver likely shipped from the factory in the November, 1942 time frame.

I hope that helps you.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Hello

Late 1942...then my gut reaction was correct. Thanks for checking it out.

When I get around to typing out a "description card" I think I will use "term #1": "Pistol, Revolver, Smith & Wesson, .38in."

As for the "38 Broad Arrow K" marking, I'm still wondering about that one. I know that the "Broad Arrow"( /l\ ) is the British Govt' property marking, just never seen one with a "38 k" included. I don't think I could get a decent photo of it, it is very difficult to see.
Thanks
Mark

Digi Shots: I'm not trying to be picky. Col Drewry was chief of the Springfield Ordnance District, as you state. That included inspecting weapons produced at S&W in Springfield, MA. Col Studler was Chief of Ordnance Small Arms development, another position entirely. There's something about him in Larry Ruth's book War Baby about the M1 carbine.

If any of this is wrong, I'll gladly stand corrected. Gee, I've only been on this forum less than a month and already I've gone and got someone teed at me.

I need information on a .38 Special revolver. It has the letters BNP on the frame and on each cylinder with cross swords below the letters. It has a 2" barrel. It also has 1.150" stamped on the barrel. It is a 6 shot revolver. I am asking for history on this revolver.

I'll just about bet you have a cut-down version of what we've been discussing. Is the forward lock for the extractor rod missing? (from under the barrel?)

A lot of these poor guns were cut down that way by surplus dealers who thought it'd make them look appealing to fans of TV detective shows, I guess. Lee Harvey Oswald had one. Shot Dallas Officer J.D. Tippit (sp?) with it. Most were converted to take .38 Special ammo, and the cases may crack on firing. Do not shoot Plus P ammo in one.

The true Victory Model snubs HAD the front cylinder lock and were in .38 Special, mainly for the FBI and similar agencies. Some may have seen OSS use or been supplied to CID and CIC agents, as were Colt .38 snubs.

Your gun is just a butchered .38-200. It probably had a five-inch barrel at one time. I think BNP means Birmingham Nitro Proof. The guns had to pass British proof tests before sale. But I'd shoot one with caution. The .38-200/.38 S&W regular has wider chamber dimensions than a .38 Special should.

Thanks for the quick reply. The forward locking pin is intact and is working. I have shot it using .38 special ammo. My Father bought the weapon in the early 1960's.

In a British Purchasing Commision letter of January 9, 1942 to Col. Drewry, they request an additional 160,000, S&W Revolvers - Cal. .38/200.

Pate page 29

I have seen some of these with about a three-inch barrel, roughly, which did have the locking point for the rod. That's a lucky situation! Some were converted by Cogswell & Harrison, which was then a real UK gun firm, although this was a little out of their usual line. Some have even been "sleeved" for .22 ammo.

If the cartridge cases did not split, you have relatively tight chambers, another lucky bit. Now, this is weird, but true:

During the 1970's, I owned a Model 19 .357 with chambers bored so casually that it'd accept FIRED (expanded) cases from my brother's .38-200! (That gun was an early one with six-inch barrel and bright blue finish, basically a commercial M&P, made before April, 1942, when Midnight Black finishes, smooth wooden grips, and five-inch barrels became standard.)

Speer advised me that S&W quality control was so poor then that I might encounter problems with ammo, and mentioned that Colt had better QC. Well, wartime chambers also vary some, and the tighter ones may well allow firing .38 Special standard speed ammo without trouble. I think some bores were also "tight"; the RAF encountered some bullets sticking in the barrels! Some of this was in shooting competitions in the 1950's, and some ammo may have been loaded light. Going for the lead bullets to FMJ increased friction, and lightening the bullet wasn't enough to always compensate.

You may be interested to know that Geoffrey Boothroyd, the British gun writer who advised author Ian Fleming on James Bond's guns, had a gun similar to yours. It had the front of the triger guard removed, ala Chas. Askins's onetime suggestions, and was on the cover of the hardback edition of, "From Russia, With Love." You may be able to find the cover in a Search for James Bond books.

I corresponded with Geoffrey B., and he did not normally remove trigger guards. I guess he was just in an Askins moment when he had that done. I also met Askins a couple of times and asked about that. He admitted that he didn't normally do that, either. I think he got the idea from Fitzgerald at Colt and that it was a passing fad.

Are the grips on your gun checkered? Not S&W factory checkering, but all-over checkered, by the surplus buyers? Saw some of those in the time frame when your dad bought this gun. Can you provide photos here?