So why did S&W start heat treating cylinders?

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walnutred

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Given the ctgs of the day it's hard to imagine S&W revolvers having catastrophic failures. Something had to prompt them to add a manufacturing step. It's not like S&W was using junk steel or cast cylinders like the cheap imports. Given the numbers of non-heat treated guns that are still firing factory ctgs successfully after almost 100 years, it's hard to believe it was just the switch to smokeless powder.

Anyone know?
 
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Thoughtful question and a great post! It'd be nice to discover original factory documentation regarding the subject of improved heat treat methods.

It could have had to do with better wear characteristics rather than strength. Or, perhaps it was for strength and providing an extra margin for early 20th century handloaders playing with the comparatively new smokeless powders.

You know how handloaders are...
 
I thought about the wear angle but isn't most of the potential wear actually on the extractor star? Maybe it was just an honest effort to use best manufacturing processes. As better technology became available S&W decided to adopt it. We're pretty cynical about such things today but maybe then things were different.
 
walnutred said:
but isn't most of the potential wear actually on the extractor star?
Click to expand...


The cylinder stop notches are a very common wear point. It might be that they decided to change the heat treatment to eliminate a different problem, not to strengthen the cylinder for handloaders to increase their charges.
 
I believe that S&W started heat treating cylinders in the early 1900's after the invention of the .357 magnums. I believe that it was felt necessary to contain the excessive pressure created by this new round. S&W also uses different levels of heat treating depending on the caliber. According to Roy Jinks, the .44 magnums get a different heat treating than a .44 special.
 
I think Dick hit it- the cyl stop notches. Don't forget that S&W had inserted hardened shims beside the notches before heat treating. Heat treating did away with that necessity. So, we had as good a product with far fewer processes.
I also think it was because of smokeless powder.
Heat treatment predates any thought of the 357 Mag.
 
Hold your horse`s here! Are you saying that S&W didnt start heat treating until 1935 when the .357 mag came out? Then explain to me why the colt single actions found need to start heat treating around 1900 with a lot less pressures than .357! We are talking 35 years earlier than S&W here!
 
heat treated cylinder.

I did not see it but it came from a reliable friend. The local indoor gun range took in a well worn M&P from the early years I think it was a second change 1905. Since the blue was badly worn and they needed another .38 Special renter it wound up on the rental shelf and digested a lot of commerical reloads for quite a while but one day the cylinder split while firing that commerical reloaded ammo.

I think that it could well be a split cylinder every now and then that caused the the change. In 1909 the cylinder notch shims were eliminated from the double action revolvers and heat treating the cylinders would be a lot cheaper than bringing back the cylinder notch shims.
 
JSR III said:
I believe that S&W started heat treating cylinders in the early 1900's after the invention of the .357 magnums. I believe that it was felt necessary to contain the excessive pressure created by this new round. S&W also uses different levels of heat treating depending on the caliber. According to Roy Jinks, the .44 magnums get a different heat treating than a .44 special.
Click to expand...

Heat treated cylinders pre-dates the .357 Magnum introduction by about 25 years.
 
In Smith and Wesson: 1857-1945, Neal and Jinks explain that S&W started using the heat treated "shims" in 1896 (presumably with the introduction of the Hand Ejector, First Model) and that they stopped using them in 1909 "after the hardeness of steel used in their cylinders had increased to a point where they felt they were no longer needed." (p. 249) I read somewhere else (same book? not sure) that there were problems with the blued finishes in the early 20th Century because S&W was starting to use newer steels and they did not react to the bluing processes in exactly the same way.

While I cannot cite any definitive source for this conclusion, my understanding is that S&W changed its heat-treat processes several times over the years. During the early history of S&W, steel was not as consistent as it was during later years (e.g. entering the 20th Century). As steel became more consistent, and high carbon steel became more common, it (presumably) became easier for S&W to harden and temper steel and obtain consistent results.

Quite frankly -- I would be surprised if there was ever any centerfire pistol cylinder they didn't heat-treat in some way.
 
Heat treating the .38's long preceded the .357 Magnum, which arrived in 1935.

Colt was doing this long before S&W, and also added a hammer block about 1905. S&W took until late 1944 to do that, after a gun discharged on being dropped on a ship's deck.

Although peening of the cylinder notches was probably a factor, I think the primary purpose of heat treating was to add safety.

T-Star
 
Heat treating is the cheapest part of building a pistol. There is no reason not to do it right. I think it costs something like 60 cents a gun or somesuch
Better heat treating began because smokeless propellent raised pressures considerably. It also changed how that pressure was delivered to the various parts, in partricular the charge holes in the cylinders.
 
Texas Star said:
Heat treating the .38's long preceded the .357 Magnum, which arrived in 1935.

Colt was doing this long before S&W, and also added a hammer block about 1905. S&W took until late 1944 to do that, after a gun discharged on being dropped on a ship's deck.

Although peening of the cylinder notches was probably a factor, I think the primary purpose of heat treating was to add safety.

T-Star
Click to expand...

Not exactly T-Star. My 1932 Outdoorsman has a hammer block. I think my 1929 2nd Model has one too. They are affixed to the sideplate and flex in/out with the action. This was later changed to something more familiar to us today.

I also remember reading and seeing pictures, but I can't recall where off hand, of the process of installing the hardened cyclinder stop notch shims. I too believe the decision to harden the steel was a cost and labor saving move by S&W. Once action to replace at least three steps (milling the slot for the shim, setting the shim and knocking off the protrusion before polishing).
 
If I remember correctly (always a dangerous thing), S&W started heat treating it's revolver cylinders just a few years after WWI ended - during the early 1920's era. This just happens to coincide with the availability of heat treatable alloy steels introduced by the American steel makers. Prior to this, highly stressed small parts were made of regular carbon steels, and their durability was increased by case hardening.

So, the timing, and the change to heat treated cylinders was all linked to available alloy steels, improvement in strength and durability, and streamlining of manufacturing processes of the period. I believe the invention of electrical induction heat treating was also during this period, further supporting this theory since S&W was one of the first to use this new method.
 
Texas Star said:
Colt was doing this long before S&W, and also added a hammer block about 1905. S&W took until late 1944 to do that, after a gun discharged on being dropped on a ship's deck.



T-Star
Click to expand...

S&W's first hammer block dates to the intro of the 1905-4th Change in 1915.
 
Just to stir up the pot.... :)

We need to define heat treating before we all go overboard. As I understand it, the 357s went thru a different process (probably a 2nd heat treatment.) Different parts of the guns were made from different grades of steel, and heat treated to different specifications. The period we're talking about was also marked by huge changes in the quality of the steel and the improved manufacturing process, which included the advances in heat treating.

It would appear there is some confusion as to the level or degree of heat treating, and we're suggesting its a simple process. It was refined dramatically in the 25 or so years between 1909 and 1935. And its continued to grow ever since.
 
I do not remember the exact date S&W started heat treating cylinders, though I know it's been mentioned on this board before. However if it started shortly after WW1 something else may have contributed to it. When I purchased my first 1917 I was showing it to some old timers at the local gun shop who had shot pistol competition in the 40's and 50's. They warned me to be cautious when reloading for it because the WW1 production guns had "soft" cylinders. They explained that the 1917 cylinders had been known to bulge chambers when shooting ball ammo in the quantities a competitor would expect to fire.

I suspect a 1917 has about the thinnest cylinder walls of any production S&W from that era. Maybe these guys were repeating an old wives tale,, or maybe they were describing something they had experienced. I do not know but I suspect that if there was going to be trouble with cylinder walls, the 1917 wold be a good candidate.
 
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