Wolf & Klar Engraving and Grips

Ok everyone jump in with your experience because everything I say here is my own conclusion based on the experience I have gained over the past few years.

1st I will post a page from Wolf & Klar catalog # 16 showing what they charged for an Engraved 38 M&P and then what the costs of engraving were along with Carved Pearl Grips.


Notice they do not offer Ivory? HMMMM makes you wonder doesnt it. Personally I have never seen a set of Ivory grips that are in the same style of carving as the pearl grips that I conclude are W&K.

I will start with my Mother of all BBQ's grips they are by far the most ornate of any I have ever seen. I know the exact history of the gun they came on as I bought it from the Grandson of Sheriff Owen C. "Slim" Mathews of Grant County Sheriffs Deartment New Mexico. The gun letters to W&K and was bought by a Texas Oilman named Burton Prince and given to Sheriff Mathews.
Almost every pair I have seen has a Roman Numeral ground into the backside of the grips. This set has the Number II on one panel but nothing on the other.



All the carved steerheads I have seen with the Roman Numerals have the same steerhead design. Here are a few more sets for your viewing.









Here are a couple sets of steerheads that do not have Roman Numerals and I dont believe they are Wolf and Klar, one is Ivory I bought from Steve H in Tulsa. The pearls came on my 38 M&P.





while in Tulsa this past weekend I found this set of Eagle carved Pearls on a small table full of stuff. They have the Roman Numeral V cut into the backside. I was excited to buy them.



So show me what yours look like!!!! Do they have the Roman Numeral? are they of the same carving design?

Whats your opinion?

Dan,

Great post. I'll try to get some picts to add to it.

There is no question that your first set is really the "Mother of all BBQ" grips. One can only imagine the image that Sheriff "Slim" projected when he appeared on the scene! No others that I have seen have that amount of detail added.

In close examination, I believe that, because of the difference in the gold applique to the horns and the absence of the Roman numeral, the left grip panel may be a replacement. Perhaps for one which was damaged in use.

Regarding the last two pairs of steer heads (one ivory and one pearl) I would have to agree that they are not Wolf & Klar. All of the W&K grips, no matter how plain or fancy, appear to have characteristics that would lead me to believe that they have all been cut by the same artist. In spite of the fact that the W & K shop was close to the Stock Yards in Ft. Worth, the shape of the steer heads leads one to conclude that the artist had not observed a real animal too closely. On the other hand, the last two pair have much more realism portrayed in the shape of the head and the detail in the brow.

Do you think that all of the W& K steer heads had ruby eyes or were the plainest ones were just "Orphan Anne" eyes? I note that in the MOA BBQ grips the eyes are set in a metal rim where some of the others are apparently just cemented to the pearl.

Bob

Dan, your photographic skills are increasing by leaps and bounds.
Thanks for sharing these gorgeous grips with the history from the Southwest.
If you'll turn your head for just a wee minute I think I've got a place on my shelf for those carved ivory steerheads....

Dan,
You've seen these grips, they too have the W&K Roman Numerals on the inside. I also think the steerhead carving is very much in line with the other W&K M.O.P. carving I have seen.





Note the difference in this second set. They came off a nickel pre-15 that had not been engraved. IMHO the carving is "better" "more detailed" but it does not look like W&K M.O.P. carving.





Also, the insides of these steerheads have no Roman Numerals.



The gun (the pre-15) didn't ship to Texas...it went to Washington, D.C.



Bob

Dan, Great post. Did you get the Wolf & Klar engraved Registered Magnum, with the ivory steer heads, at Tulsa? I once owned 4 of the 7 Kornbrath engraved W&K Model 1926s that were dropped shipped to Kornbrath, in the white, for engraving, then returned to S&W for nickel plating and shipped to W&K, where W&K added pearl grips with the gold steer horns, ruby eyes, etc. They were ordered by a wealthy hotel owner & cattleman in San Antonio for gifts for his friends. Ed #15

Don't know if it has any connection or not,,but the use of Roman Numerals was used by the Spanish gun trade going back at least into the late 1800's to match up parts on a particular gun. Sort of an assembly number to keep all the major fitted parts of the gun readily identifiable as the parts went through the different mfg and finishing processes.
Star and I believe Llama still used it up to the 1960's and later in some cases.

Perhaps a clue as to who W&K grip makers/carvers learned the trade from.

Bob,

I have owned 2 sets that didn't have Rubies in the eyes, I think they are correct with or without. One of the sets above (the 5th set) I added the rubies as I have a friend who owns a pawnshop and she gave me the rubies at no cost.

John,
Thanks for the compliment, I got a new camera a few months ago and actually read the users manual We sure missed you in Tulsa. Stay safe you hear!!!

Bob,
I am still looking for a set of K-Frame Steerheads that are marked with the Roman Numeral. I think they were done in much smaller quantities so are seen far less. I had hoped the set you got on the Model 15 was one but I can see what you are talking about. They are gorgeous either way. Thanks for showing them.

Ed,
No I didnt pull the string on the Registered Magnum as R.P. was asking way too much in my opinion for a cut barrel gun. I tried though believe me I tried. I would love to see one of those Kornbrath engraved guns. It would make the engraving on mine look sick I'm sure.

2152hq,
I would guess that the engravers and carvers for W&K were Mexicans but that is just a guess on my part. thanks for sharing.

2152hq,

Thanks for that info about the Spanish gunmakers using Roman numerals too. The Mexican carver makes a lot of sense. Of course, the ease of making the marks, without any curves, just a few quick sweeps with a knife or graver, also makes sense with a fragile material like MOP.

I have an old gun collecting buddy who has a nickel, engraved, pearl K frame that is linked to a former Ft. Worth Chief of Police. He has had it for sale for years and periodically puts it on his table. I haven't seen it in a while but I think he still has it since he was asking about 3X what I thought it was worth and he wouldn't move. I'll try to get in touch with him and see if he still has it.

Bob

GREAT STUFF!!!
Can't wait for that scratched up .44!!

REALLY good info,thanks for posting it.I have been looking for an example of those type of grips for a long time.Looks like I just need to go to Tulsa.I hope this isn't to OT,but does any of the modern grip makers make any copies of those type of grips?Maybe out of a more durable look alike material? Thanks, Jeff

Steve,

Thanks for those pictures of the Kornbrath engraved guns that Ed mentioned. Not only was the engraving done by a professional engraver, I expect that the grips (ivory?) were also. Note that the heads show real 3 dimension with contour to the muzzle. Apparently some of the W&K customers had special requests that they honored.

Ed,

Although you dont specify just who the San Antonio hotelier was, I would make a bet that it was the Minger family. The Minger Hotel is still there next to the Alamo as it has been since 1859. A visit to their bar should be on the must do list if you are visiting SA. One of my close friends dated a Minger daughter in college and I've always felt that he let that one slip through his fingers.

Bob

Bob

The other possibility is that its H B Freeman and his Gunter Hotel.

The two nickel guns pictured above, that came out of the 2008 RI
Auction, were shipped a couple of years apart. The second gun
was shipped May 2 1932 to H B Freeman c/o Gunter Hotel, SA,
and was ordered through W & K . There were 4 guns in this shipment,
2 nickel and 2 blue, and in each finish one was a 4" and the other a
5" .

Regards, Mike Priwer

You're right Mike. The Gunter is another good guess! Gunter and Minger are two great and historic old timers.
Bob

Great stuff guys,

The Ivory on those Kornbrath engraved guns is stunning and I would love to own some like them. I think Bob is right though that the Ivory was carved by someone else. Interesting that Ed said the 4 he owned had Pearl Steerhead grips on them. Wonder if either of these were his at one time.
I know when I 1st saw the MOAB (Mother of all BBQ) gun there was no way I was leaving without it. I called Ed for an opinion and figured I had paid Top dollar for it. But after the research and all I wouldnt let it go for double what I paid for it.

Keep it coming guys. I would really like to see some more grips from those that have em

Here are the grips from Chief Grady Thompson's Third Model that we posted about a few weeks ago. The Roman numerals in them are XVIIII. I don't think that I have seen that high a number before; I wonder if there is any relationship to the size of the number and the number of guns which were on the carver's work bench at that particular time? Can't think of any reason for them not to duplicate the number after the grips had been remounted and shipped.







Dan, I hope you will forgive me for inserting what may or may not be a pair of W&K grips here. It seems a little appropiate to show these Mexican silver and gold ones since they were also a very popular addition to the garb of the Southwestern Lawman in that era.



Bob

bettis1 said:

2152hq,

Thanks for that info about the Spanish gunmakers using Roman numerals too. The Mexican carver makes a lot of sense. Of course, the ease of making the marks, without any curves, just a few quick sweeps with a knife or graver, also makes sense with a fragile material like MOP.

Bob

Click to expand...

You're welcome.
The easily made Roman Numerals were undoubtedly one reason the markings system was chosen IMHO. Done quickly and at times crudely it was still a quick and positive identification method.
I've never seen one in steel that was done with purpose made letter punches/stamps. Mostly scatched into the surface(s) with a pointed scribe or in some cases the letters made quickly with just a straight chisel edge used to form out the letters with light hammer taps.

Also R/Numerals were universally recognized and even the less than educated could most often still read them or at least match them up to each other and their commonly used steel parts assembly trays that were also marked.
The numbers range at times was quite high as the parts lots went through the mfg processes with makers like Star, Llama, etc. But as the guns were finished and out of production, the numbers/trays were recycled through the system again.

Also, some small makers & one-of makers (alot of the industry was still cottage industry) may have chosen an extremely high numeral prefix for a personal identification of sorts. They were outsource workers in many instances and their name didn't appear on the final product. I wouldn't doubt if some of those grip makers had done the same to leave a personalized mark of sorts.

This is not a S&W, but the grips have a RN "1" carved on the backside.

Great Gun & Grips Gatorbator,

over the past couple years I have looked at dozens of sets of Colt grips with the same Steerhead design, All had the Roman Numeral on the backside too. I also looked at many with a different design of carving and none had the RN.

I think the reason roman numerals are used is because it is easily done with the equipment used to carve the stocks. I think they are carved with a narrow burr or wheel that has a radius cutting edge. This was probably mounted on a horizontal shaft, and the work was moved by hand under the cutter.

Is there any correlation between the roman numeral and the serial number of the gun?

Lead slinger,

I have always thought that the Roman numerals were cut with a rotary cutting instrument like a Baldor dental lathe; just one touch for each stroke of the number. The cut is symetrical, that is, shallow at each end and deepest in the middle. With the proper measurement it would be possible to determine the radius of the cutting wheel.

I've never seen any correlation between the numbers and the serial number of the gun. I think they are simply to keep the two sides together; just like the fitters numbers on the frame of the gun.

Bob