Ok everyone jump in with your experience because everything I say here is my own conclusion based on the experience I have gained over the past few years.

1st I will post a page from Wolf & Klar catalog # 16 showing what they charged for an Engraved 38 M&P and then what the costs of engraving were along with Carved Pearl Grips.


Notice they do not offer Ivory? HMMMM makes you wonder doesnt it. Personally I have never seen a set of Ivory grips that are in the same style of carving as the pearl grips that I conclude are W&K.

I will start with my Mother of all BBQ's grips they are by far the most ornate of any I have ever seen. I know the exact history of the gun they came on as I bought it from the Grandson of Sheriff Owen C. "Slim" Mathews of Grant County Sheriffs Deartment New Mexico. The gun letters to W&K and was bought by a Texas Oilman named Burton Prince and given to Sheriff Mathews.
Almost every pair I have seen has a Roman Numeral ground into the backside of the grips. This set has the Number II on one panel but nothing on the other.



All the carved steerheads I have seen with the Roman Numerals have the same steerhead design. Here are a few more sets for your viewing.









Here are a couple sets of steerheads that do not have Roman Numerals and I dont believe they are Wolf and Klar, one is Ivory I bought from Steve H in Tulsa. The pearls came on my 38 M&P.





while in Tulsa this past weekend I found this set of Eagle carved Pearls on a small table full of stuff. They have the Roman Numeral V cut into the backside. I was excited to buy them.



So show me what yours look like!!!! Do they have the Roman Numeral? are they of the same carving design?

Whats your opinion?

Dan,

Great post. I'll try to get some picts to add to it.

There is no question that your first set is really the "Mother of all BBQ" grips. One can only imagine the image that Sheriff "Slim" projected when he appeared on the scene! No others that I have seen have that amount of detail added.

In close examination, I believe that, because of the difference in the gold applique to the horns and the absence of the Roman numeral, the left grip panel may be a replacement. Perhaps for one which was damaged in use.

Regarding the last two pairs of steer heads (one ivory and one pearl) I would have to agree that they are not Wolf & Klar. All of the W&K grips, no matter how plain or fancy, appear to have characteristics that would lead me to believe that they have all been cut by the same artist. In spite of the fact that the W & K shop was close to the Stock Yards in Ft. Worth, the shape of the steer heads leads one to conclude that the artist had not observed a real animal too closely. On the other hand, the last two pair have much more realism portrayed in the shape of the head and the detail in the brow.

Do you think that all of the W& K steer heads had ruby eyes or were the plainest ones were just "Orphan Anne" eyes? I note that in the MOA BBQ grips the eyes are set in a metal rim where some of the others are apparently just cemented to the pearl.

Bob

Dan, your photographic skills are increasing by leaps and bounds.
Thanks for sharing these gorgeous grips with the history from the Southwest.
If you'll turn your head for just a wee minute I think I've got a place on my shelf for those carved ivory steerheads....

__________________
John

Dan,
You've seen these grips, they too have the W&K Roman Numerals on the inside. I also think the steerhead carving is very much in line with the other W&K M.O.P. carving I have seen.





Note the difference in this second set. They came off a nickel pre-15 that had not been engraved. IMHO the carving is "better" "more detailed" but it does not look like W&K M.O.P. carving.





Also, the insides of these steerheads have no Roman Numerals.



The gun (the pre-15) didn't ship to Texas...it went to Washington, D.C.



Bob

__________________
"Onward thru the Fog"

Dan, Great post. Did you get the Wolf & Klar engraved Registered Magnum, with the ivory steer heads, at Tulsa? I once owned 4 of the 7 Kornbrath engraved W&K Model 1926s that were dropped shipped to Kornbrath, in the white, for engraving, then returned to S&W for nickel plating and shipped to W&K, where W&K added pearl grips with the gold steer horns, ruby eyes, etc. They were ordered by a wealthy hotel owner & cattleman in San Antonio for gifts for his friends. Ed #15

Don't know if it has any connection or not,,but the use of Roman Numerals was used by the Spanish gun trade going back at least into the late 1800's to match up parts on a particular gun. Sort of an assembly number to keep all the major fitted parts of the gun readily identifiable as the parts went through the different mfg and finishing processes.
Star and I believe Llama still used it up to the 1960's and later in some cases.

Perhaps a clue as to who W&K grip makers/carvers learned the trade from.

Bob,

I have owned 2 sets that didn't have Rubies in the eyes, I think they are correct with or without. One of the sets above (the 5th set) I added the rubies as I have a friend who owns a pawnshop and she gave me the rubies at no cost.

John,
Thanks for the compliment, I got a new camera a few months ago and actually read the users manual We sure missed you in Tulsa. Stay safe you hear!!!

Bob,
I am still looking for a set of K-Frame Steerheads that are marked with the Roman Numeral. I think they were done in much smaller quantities so are seen far less. I had hoped the set you got on the Model 15 was one but I can see what you are talking about. They are gorgeous either way. Thanks for showing them.

Ed,
No I didnt pull the string on the Registered Magnum as R.P. was asking way too much in my opinion for a cut barrel gun. I tried though believe me I tried. I would love to see one of those Kornbrath engraved guns. It would make the engraving on mine look sick I'm sure.

2152hq,
I would guess that the engravers and carvers for W&K were Mexicans but that is just a guess on my part. thanks for sharing.

2152hq,

Thanks for that info about the Spanish gunmakers using Roman numerals too. The Mexican carver makes a lot of sense. Of course, the ease of making the marks, without any curves, just a few quick sweeps with a knife or graver, also makes sense with a fragile material like MOP.

I have an old gun collecting buddy who has a nickel, engraved, pearl K frame that is linked to a former Ft. Worth Chief of Police. He has had it for sale for years and periodically puts it on his table. I haven't seen it in a while but I think he still has it since he was asking about 3X what I thought it was worth and he wouldn't move. I'll try to get in touch with him and see if he still has it.

Bob

GREAT STUFF!!!
Can't wait for that scratched up .44!!

REALLY good info,thanks for posting it.I have been looking for an example of those type of grips for a long time.Looks like I just need to go to Tulsa.I hope this isn't to OT,but does any of the modern grip makers make any copies of those type of grips?Maybe out of a more durable look alike material? Thanks, Jeff

Steve,

Thanks for those pictures of the Kornbrath engraved guns that Ed mentioned. Not only was the engraving done by a professional engraver, I expect that the grips (ivory?) were also. Note that the heads show real 3 dimension with contour to the muzzle. Apparently some of the W&K customers had special requests that they honored.

Ed,

Although you dont specify just who the San Antonio hotelier was, I would make a bet that it was the Minger family. The Minger Hotel is still there next to the Alamo as it has been since 1859. A visit to their bar should be on the must do list if you are visiting SA. One of my close friends dated a Minger daughter in college and I've always felt that he let that one slip through his fingers.

Bob

Bob

The other possibility is that its H B Freeman and his Gunter Hotel.

The two nickel guns pictured above, that came out of the 2008 RI
Auction, were shipped a couple of years apart. The second gun
was shipped May 2 1932 to H B Freeman c/o Gunter Hotel, SA,
and was ordered through W & K . There were 4 guns in this shipment,
2 nickel and 2 blue, and in each finish one was a 4" and the other a
5" .

Regards, Mike Priwer

You're right Mike. The Gunter is another good guess! Gunter and Minger are two great and historic old timers.
Bob

Great stuff guys,

The Ivory on those Kornbrath engraved guns is stunning and I would love to own some like them. I think Bob is right though that the Ivory was carved by someone else. Interesting that Ed said the 4 he owned had Pearl Steerhead grips on them. Wonder if either of these were his at one time.
I know when I 1st saw the MOAB (Mother of all BBQ) gun there was no way I was leaving without it. I called Ed for an opinion and figured I had paid Top dollar for it. But after the research and all I wouldnt let it go for double what I paid for it.

Keep it coming guys. I would really like to see some more grips from those that have em

Here are the grips from Chief Grady Thompson's Third Model that we posted about a few weeks ago. The Roman numerals in them are XVIIII. I don't think that I have seen that high a number before; I wonder if there is any relationship to the size of the number and the number of guns which were on the carver's work bench at that particular time? Can't think of any reason for them not to duplicate the number after the grips had been remounted and shipped.







Dan, I hope you will forgive me for inserting what may or may not be a pair of W&K grips here. It seems a little appropiate to show these Mexican silver and gold ones since they were also a very popular addition to the garb of the Southwestern Lawman in that era.



Bob

You're welcome.
The easily made Roman Numerals were undoubtedly one reason the markings system was chosen IMHO. Done quickly and at times crudely it was still a quick and positive identification method.
I've never seen one in steel that was done with purpose made letter punches/stamps. Mostly scatched into the surface(s) with a pointed scribe or in some cases the letters made quickly with just a straight chisel edge used to form out the letters with light hammer taps.

Also R/Numerals were universally recognized and even the less than educated could most often still read them or at least match them up to each other and their commonly used steel parts assembly trays that were also marked.
The numbers range at times was quite high as the parts lots went through the mfg processes with makers like Star, Llama, etc. But as the guns were finished and out of production, the numbers/trays were recycled through the system again.

Also, some small makers & one-of makers (alot of the industry was still cottage industry) may have chosen an extremely high numeral prefix for a personal identification of sorts. They were outsource workers in many instances and their name didn't appear on the final product. I wouldn't doubt if some of those grip makers had done the same to leave a personalized mark of sorts.

This is not a S&W, but the grips have a RN "1" carved on the backside.

Great Gun & Grips Gatorbator,

over the past couple years I have looked at dozens of sets of Colt grips with the same Steerhead design, All had the Roman Numeral on the backside too. I also looked at many with a different design of carving and none had the RN.

I think the reason roman numerals are used is because it is easily done with the equipment used to carve the stocks. I think they are carved with a narrow burr or wheel that has a radius cutting edge. This was probably mounted on a horizontal shaft, and the work was moved by hand under the cutter.

Is there any correlation between the roman numeral and the serial number of the gun?

__________________
To be a rock and not to roll

Lead slinger,

I have always thought that the Roman numerals were cut with a rotary cutting instrument like a Baldor dental lathe; just one touch for each stroke of the number. The cut is symetrical, that is, shallow at each end and deepest in the middle. With the proper measurement it would be possible to determine the radius of the cutting wheel.

I've never seen any correlation between the numbers and the serial number of the gun. I think they are simply to keep the two sides together; just like the fitters numbers on the frame of the gun.

Bob

I know this is an older post but I found it trying to research Wolf and Klar. Does anyone know if they are still in business? My wife and I are trying to do more research on the history of a 1930 Model 1905 4th change that we recently received the S&W authentification letter on. They show it was sent to Wolf and Klar with checkered wood grips but it now has pearl. We're trying to see if it may have been her great grandfathers when he was a Texas Ranger so I was hoping if W&K were still in business, there might be a way to check their sale records.

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russp1,

Unfortunately, Wolf & Klar is no longer in business. There have been various attempts to locate their business records but, to my knowledge, they remain unavailable.

That M1905 certainly could have been a Ranger's gun. Perhaps you can find a picture of your wife's ancestor that shows him with it. You might contact the DPS in Austin and the Ranger Museum in Waco to see if there are any photos of the man.

Bob

She's gathering up as much info as she can on him to send to the museum in Waco; they offer some type of research service on Rangers. Doesn't seem to be any members of her family still around with any knowlege of his generation.

Good luck on the search. Please post the results here when you find something.

Several folks on this forum have information on many of the old Rangers so if you care to post the name and dates of his service, you might be lucky here also.

Bob

Resurrecting an old thread. These steerhead pearl came on a 5th or last issue of the M&P (s/n range 517XXX) with nickel finish. There are no Roman numerals on the backs. I have sent for a Factory Letter (how long does that take?). I am hoping the letter states the gun was shipped with pearls but I will be surprised, and pleased, if it was, but I have my doubts. Comments? Thanks.

The pearl Steerheads grips appear to be Wolf and Klar IMO, I serously doubt the gun shipped with pearl stocks and if it did I doubt they would have been carved. Having only seen a few pairs of K-frame Steerheads, I cant give any validity about the missing roman numerals. Nice grips though, let us know what the letter says.

Dan

I agree with Dan that they are W&K. My speculation is that the Roman numerals were put on the grips to keep the two halves together on the carver's work bench during his work . If that is correct and he only had the one pair of K frame grips to carve on his bench at that time, there would be no reason to number them.

Pure speculation, though.

Bob

Thanks to you both and I will post the info I receive with the letter. I am not knowledgeable on S&W so I will ask: Is there a gun these grips would fit that would have been made around 1880-1886? Does Wolf and Klar go back that far?
Thanks again.

I have what appear to be a pair of W&K steerhead pearls on a TL. I'll have to take pix and post later.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, my ivories, my decor. I was working in Belgian Congo (1951, Pan Am airplane mechanic), Africa, had local ivory carver copy original K & N frame and SAA grips. I had about a dozen pairs made at $6/pr. The eagle I put on in '52, the rest in recent years.

ob'98,

The K frame grips will not fit any S&W's of the 1880's that I know of.

Wolf & Klar was a large pawn shop/jewelry store in Ft. Worth that was a significant supplier to cattlemen, lawmen and oilmen in the early and mid 1900's. Although they sold Colts and Smiths early on, they became most prominent in the S&W world when they talked the factory into restoring the under lug to the barrel of the 2nd Model HE (like that of the TripleLock, but without the third lock) in 1926. I don't know when they began but I don't think it was as early as the 1880's. Perhaps someone can give us a specific date of their beginning.

Bob

I bought these grips to put on this S&W 1968 renickled TL, seems unfired since, had new magnas on it. Grips came out of TX and may be W&Ks. Pearl steerhead is in very high relief, eyes look to be silver. No markings on backs.

Here is my 44 HE second model Its the only blued engraved Wolf and Klar I have ever seen


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Riley,

The photos are a little fuzzy but I agree that it is W&K engraving and carving. Since the gun has been refinished, it is hard to know what the original finish might have been.

Bob

Sorry about the pics my camera is not very good and I am not much of a photographer as to the finish of the gun it could have been refinished after it left Wolf and Klar but I don't think so if was it was a really good job. after thinking about it I have never seen another 6.5 inch engraved by Wolf and Klar I am sure their are quiet a few but I have never seen any.Have you?

Riley,

I apologize if my post seemed presumptive. I made my assessment based on the fact that the hammer and trigger appear to be other than case hardened and the "plumb" color of the cylinder. Both of these things are giveaways that a Smith & Wesson is not in its original finish.

Just to clarify, there are relatively few of the 3rd Model H.E. guns that we call the "Wolf & Klar" Model with a 6.5" barrel (only estimated 100-150). Your gun appears to be a 2nd Model H.E. and the 6.5" barrel is most common in that model. If you are asking about the specific guns that have been "engraved" by W&K with a 6.5" bbl., I don't know of any estimates on those.

Bob

I agree with Bob on the estimation is impossible. Anyone could walk into the shop with their gun and have it engraved. Forum member 1Aspenhill showed pictures once of a blued Heavy Duty that appeared to be W&K engraved, the cut/engraving was left in the silver and not re blued after the engraving. I'll try and find the pictures and his post

Dan

As promished, here is the important information from the S&W letter:

Just found the forum and the thread because I just found this:

Michael,

Very nice old M&P. You are correct the engraving and grips are by Wolf & Klar.

I don't know how familiar you are with their work but W&K cut their engraving through the original factory finish so the fact that the nickel is in the engraving cuts and the hammer and trigger are nickel instead of case hardened tells us that someone refinished it at a later date. The fact that one of the ruby eyes is missing isn't unusual. They are often both found missing and sometimes, I think they may not have ever been installed. You might be able to find some cheap costume jewelry that you could replace it with.

Nice find. Do you know anything about its history?

Bob

It's from a friend's estate. Unfortunately he never kept written records and his widow wasn't really interested in guns, so I have no idea where he acquired it. A friend of mine's a huge Smith aficionado, and between us we found this thread and others.

There're a bunch of other old Smiths, too, some of which we plan to pay them for, some we plan to help them sell.

Too bad there aren't any records.

If you and your friend want to post the descriptions and pictures of the old Smiths here we will try to assist you in identifying them.

Perhaps you might want to start a new thread. If you do, post a link to it on this one so those here are sure to follow it.

Bob

We've IDed most so far, and some are quite interesting. He seemed to accumulate rather than collect.

My Grandfather left me a few guns. 3 were from his sister's Husband. He was given them either in Waco, El Paso, TX or Almagordo, New Mexico. He was the local Mortician and a Widow of a deceased Policeman, Sheriff or Marshal had passed away and she paid for the service in trade for the guns.
The Guns were: Colt 38 Special Army, No # 530121
H&R 22 Police Training Pistol - Model 920 (7 shot)
and S&W Nickel Plated 40 w/Pearl Handle - 372760
The S&W has the cow head grips and when I recently had it cleaned I was told about the marks on the back. Until this thread I never knew what they were. I know all weapons belonged to the same Officer and that was it.

If ANYONE can tell me anything about them or where to find more info: Age, where to find who the officer was, what type of officer, etc. I would be VERY appreciative! Thanks for this thread. I now know what the roman numerals are!

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plm13,

That is a very nice old S&W with Wolf & Klar grips. Having a lawman's gun from any of the towns that you mentioned would accelerate the heart beat of most of us here. It is either a .38/44 Hand Ejector (aka Heavy Duty) or a 3rd Model Hand Ejector (aka W&K Model). The caliber will be marked on the barrel. The number that you gave seems to have too many digits. The serial number is the number on the butt of the gun. If you can, please post some more detailed pictures and information.

Chasing down the owner will take some sleuth work but it will be fun. The first thing to do is to request a letter from Roy Jinks, the Factory Historian. It will cost you $50 but you don't have a lot invested in the gun and it is certainly worth the investment for a letter. If you are lucky, the gun will have been shipped to the lawman who used it. It may also only show the dealer that ordered it but even that might give you a part of the state to focus on. If you can get the name of the mortician, that would give you something to begin to search the funeral homes in the towns that you mentioned. There may very well be a listing of morticians that you can search. Once you know the town where the mortician practiced, you can begin to search who the lawmen were there during the time that the Factory letter says the gun was shipped.

The little H&R was a popular plinker. Lots of us learned to shoot revolvers with that relatively inexpensive little .22. I had one (a 9 shot Model 922) as a boy and countless junk yard rats, bottles, and clods were dispatched with it.

Bob

ps: I just looked under magnification and your S&W is a .44 H.E. Third Model. They were produced from 1926 to 1941.

Guys,
These grips are beautiful. What would be a fair price to pay for a set for a old m&P? How hard are they to find? Where to look? (other then ebay, gb?)

Welcome to our new Forum members, MichaelZWilliamson and plm13.

This is the BEST place in the world to learn about Smith & Wesson products.

Over in the Lounge, we ain't too shabby about discussing such topics as fast cars and BBQ either!

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Bob, Yes it is a 44 S&W with hand ejector! I would gladly spend the $50 for research. I know it was a law officer, Just not sure what type or who? The serial number is 32760.
Tell me how we et started. Sorry it took me so long to reply but my Mother just passed away unexpectedly. So I have been kinda busy.
Anything you can help with would be great. Let me know how we start!

olm13,

Very sorry to learn of the loss of your mother. Our thoughts are with you in this sad time.

Regarding the letter, if you will go to the top of the page on the forum and open the "Downloads" box. On the left side there is a form to print out for a letter from Roy Jinks. It usually takes about 6-8 weeks depending on Roy's schedule. Keep us posted on what you find out about your gun.

Bob

plm13, sorry about your loss. I have s/n 32846 and it shipped on March 29, 1929 to W&K so I would guess that yours may have shipped sometime near then.

Welcome to the forum.

THANKS GUYS!!! Yes, I can see the HE as well. The number was a screw up on my part, Sorry! The number is: 32760
Sorry forth the extra digit. I know he was an Office, just not sure what department. The family lived in Waco and the Officer's widow paid for his service with the 3 guns. So I know all 3 are from the same officer. The time is right from what you said and from the 38 I have puts the officer square in the middle of Prohibition. I would love for him to have been a Texas Ranger being the Good ole Texas boy that I am. Distant relative of Sam Houston would kind of bring it full circle for me.

I can't thank you enough. What do these grips go of? I am guessing if I can tie this to an individual it can increase in value by who knows. But not for sale. Worth more to me personally.

Thanks Gents! Keep shooting straight