I know that Navy and Marine pilots carried Victory revolvers, the question I have is, has anyone done a study to see how the Marine revolvers may have been marked? Would they have anything to distinguish them from the US Navy guns?
My Dad was a US Marine on Iwo Jima and his Kabar fighting knife was a USN Mk 2 not a USMC knife and had no Marine markings on it, but he carried it in 4 battles, Roi Namur, Saipan, Tinian and Iwo Jima.
I am trying to specialize in US Navy Victory models. I currently have 3, only one is marked US Navy the other two say US Property but I have factory letters on all 3 showing they went to the US Navy in Oakland CA.

US Navy Marked



US Navy unmarked, polished, maybe reblued



Latest US Navy Victory, gun shop buy, a surprise Navy as it is not Navy marked

Hi Jeff:

The Victory Model revolvers used by the Marine Corps in WW2 did not come from the S&W factory with any Marine Corps-specific markings. During the war Marine aviators were supplied with new revolvers by the Navy.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Dad was a Marine pilot in Korea (AD Skyraiders)....he carried his own P08 Luger when he first got there. Someone made him ditch it and carry a Victory Model, he thinks they were marked Navy but he doesn't really remember, he is still PO'd that his Luger went "missing" after he was forced to give it up....

Nice old Victory models! One of mine (that letters to the US Navy in Norfolk, VA) has a "CD" on the butt overstamping the "V" in the serial number, that looks like the "CD" right above the grips on one of yours. I have no other info as to where my gun went after being shipped to Norfolk.

Regards,

Jerry

Someone suggested PC CD might be Panama City Civil Defense. I really don't know.

I do know that the Navy had Harbor Patrol Craft called "PC"s but they usually had a number like PC233 they also had PCE and PCS and PCC.

I would really like to try to find out what the PC over CD stands for

What do they use now? SIG P-228's, the US M-11 version?

I think USAF pilots normally carry Beretta M-9's, although some units have bought Glocks.

T-Star

when I was in the navy early 60's pilots carried a revolver but were only issues tracer rounds before each flight

May have varied with the command? I was in the USAF about then-1967, and sometimes saw naval aircrews at our bases. I think I recall seeing normal ball ammo in the loops.

Author Stephen Coonts was an A-6 pilot, and his writing suggests normal ball ammo, and that some pilots could carry personal arms. I think he had a S&W M-19. A gun writer with an Italian last name (first name Gene; can't recall the last name) was naval aircrew, and carried his own P-38.

By the way, have you guys seen, "The Bridges at Toko-Ri" lately? Some good footage of Wm. Holden and others with Victory models. The knives on their vests look like commercial items from Case or Western. Good movie.

In the book on which the film was based, author James Michener said that pilots fired only six shots in training! Sounds like it might be true. Gad...

T-Star

Hello

I have said this quite a few times and I think that many here are tired of me bringing up my Dad that was a gunner in a TBM Avenger during the War.

Anyway, I already posted this in another topic in this forum. My Dad has told me that they were issued with tracer cartridges for their revolvers. He mentions removing the paint (Red, I think?) from the bullets with steel wool. I am not sure if they were only issued with tracer rounds or they also had ball cartridges as well. Next time I see him I will ask (that does not mean he will remember though LOL). However, from what I have heard from his squadron mates at reunions, my gut reaction tells me they were issued both tracer and ball ammunition.

As for how much ammo and how it was carried, Dad's details are a bit hazy. From what I have seen of the aircrew shoulder holsters, many of them have cartridge loops stitched directly to the should strap. The impression I have is that this was done my the squadrons Parachute Rigger (PR), so there would be variations from squadron to squadron. My Dad remembers
the holster fairly well, but when it comes to cartridge loops on the holster, he thinks that they had a separate bandoleer just for the revolver ammo. Maybe his squadron did it that way, or he had that 60-plus year detail wrong in his mind?

One more little story then I'll shut up. Most of the radiomen in his squadron that I have met at reunions has told me that after they drop their ordnance on a strike over Tokyo, Tomihama, Atsugi Air Field, ect, they would crack open the crew door and "return enemy fire" with their revolvers LOL. Of course my Dad had a .50 Cal. Machine Gun in the turret, so he never fired his revolver in anger (that I'm aware of).
Thanks
Mark

There are too many fake Victories out there with USMC and Navy and other stampings to rely on any stamping on a Victory that is not supported by a factory letter showing where it was shipped, and even then you have to be aware that early on the Army received all Victories and then distributed them, later it was mostly Navy shipped, although a few will letter as shipped to the Marines. Also, some guns stamped USMC are legit shipments to the United States Maritime Commission. Bottomline: What you think you have may not be what you think it is, when it comes to Victories! Ed #15

opoefc

I agree that the Factory Letter is very important, sort of the be all and end all, at least as far as where it went from the factory.

As I said before my Dad was a Sgt in the Marines (check out HQ224USMC Honoring the men of the HQ Company the website I did for he and his men) and was in 4 battles including Iwo Jima and carried a USN Camillius MK 2 fighting knife, not a USMC. Markings are too easy to put on afterwards.
I collect USN Victory's, although my collection is small, just the three revolvers, two that have no Navy markings but have factory letters, and it was sh** luck that I got them and they turned out to be Navy!
Any how I am looking for a double marked revolver, Navy on the top strap and Navy on the sideplate but am being very very leary of fakes. Part of the problem is that it takes a month to get a factory letter and most return policies are 3-7 days so you basically take your chances.
A good part of it to me is holding the revolver and asking it (no, I don't actually talk to it, at least not out loud ) where it may have been and what it's story is.

The other thing about the history on these guns is that my wife feels the same way, she often asks me how many guns do I need ("more than I have, not as many as I want") but when it comes to historical guns she is very supportive.

I am going to take my time in the quest for a double marked Navy so I hopefully don't get burned, and I will keep asking questions and trying to learn.

When/if I ever have the cash to buy a U.S. .38 Special version of the Victory Model, I'd be grateful to have whatever I could find/afford LOL. If it turned out to be US Navy marked/issued, that would be a bonus to me LOL.
Thanks
Mark

Maybe this will help a little. I was Navy enlisted Aircrew, ATR-3 (AC), in the Grumman E1-B Tracer radar picket aircraft in Tonkin Gulf 66'-67'. Flew 63 combat missions off the USS Kearsarge doing anti submarine warfare / surface ship tracking and ID ops. Guns weren't issued to individuals, just take the next one from the safe before the flight and return it during the debrief. Ammo was all tracer, no ball. We had the rigger sew loops on the front of the survival vest. Carried about 30 rounds total as I recall and yes, we shot at boats on occasion. Most of our flights were over water. If the plane went down our need was for a signaling device instead of defense. Ammo type seems to have been dependent on the mission.
______________________________________________________________

"The doorway to freedom is framed with muskets" Charlton Heston

I purchased this S&W Navy marked Victory revolver along with the pilot holster from a local dealer. Amazingly enough, there was a name (Bert Morgan) and flight group (VT-1) still inked on the back of the strap. The revolver is the standard issue U.S.NAVY marked version.




The strap, clearly a riggers addition, holds 31 rounds...have no idea why 31.


After two years of researching military records, identifying the location(s) of VT-1 in WWII (carrier USS BENNINGTON by the way), I was able to contact some of the original surviving crew members. They were able to confirm AMM3 Morgan was indeed on the USS BENNINGTON and provided an "on deck" photo. He was the third crew member on an "Avenger". Planes from the USS BENNINGTON also helped sink the Japanese Battleship Yamato and also overflew the Japanese signing of the surrender onboard the USS MISSOURI.





The only other info they had was he was listed as a student/farmer from Iowa. The wife and I saddled the Electra Glide and traveled to Iowa one weekend, just on the off chance we could find more info. After many "have you heard of" and "do you knows", we were able to locate AMM3 Morgan.





We were able to meet his wife and she supplied the "rest" of the story. Emotional day. As we rode back toward home, I couldn't help think how bittersweet this was. This chapter on my Victory Model and holster was closed, but more importantly, I came a little closer to a common man from Iowa that stepped forward one day when we needed him sorely...and he flew into history.

Thought you US Navy (active and retired) might appreciate this story.

On this Christmas Day, I"d like to say thanks to Bert.... and Merry Christmas to the United States Navy and for what you do to ensure our FREEDOM!

A good story, 2K7. Thanks for posting it for the rest of us.

Would you please post here or send me a PM with the complete serial on your Victory for inclusion in the Victory Model Database?

Thanks in advance.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

Sent.........

I was USAF, but also appreciated your story. Thanks for posting!

T-Star

Amazing story, thanks for sharing it with us.

- Rhino

Fine looking Victorys you have there Ben.
I have a USNavy marked that according to the factory letter shipped to the Navy at Oakland, and a USProperty marked that shipped to the Navy at Norfolk.
Thanks for sharing.

Attached Images

DSC06412.jpg (112.1 KB, 230 views)

2k7 as a US Navy Vet, I really appreciate your story of the background of your gun. It brings it home the history, usually unknown, that our Navy Victory's have.

kikokat, those are two nice looking Victory's

I might be prejudiced but I think we who collect Navy Victory's are among the cream of the Victory collectors

All of the Marine Victory Models I saw in my time in the Corps (1964-1992) were Navy-marked. That's both as an embassy guard (MSG), with the counterintelligence community and with the aviation community. I have never seen one in service with any USMC-unique markings.

In the late 70s-early 80s, the Marine Corps acquired several Ruger Service 6s for embassy guard use. In the Gulf, 90-91, Marine aviators were issued Beretta M9s. I saw Navy aviators carrying 1911s!

My youngest is a current Navy aviator and his issue pistol is a SIG M11.

Joe W
LtCol USMC(ret)

That is what I have been hearing about the markings.

Once again a shameless plug for my website, my Dad was on Roi Namur, Saipan, Tinian and Iwo Jima, I did a website for him and his men HQ224USMC Honoring the men of the HQ Company where I have battle pictures and pics of the islands today.
I am also putting his Battalion CO's auto biography Col Richard Rothwell a China Marine and one of two remaining Battalion CO's left.

We had some of Dad's ashes scattered on Mt Suribachi, pictures on the website and he was featured on Battle Rats: Iwo Jima with the ash ceremony

Jeff Padell USN

PS my nephew is a LTjg NFO back seater Eli Padell USN - The Padell Genealogy Website

Forgot to add, I was issued a commercial Model 10, 4" tapered barrel, round butt, in 1981 at MCAS El Toro. And as an embassy guard in the mid-1960s, in addition to my issue Victory Model, when on personal security details I carried a State Dept-issue commercial Model 10, also 4" tapered bbl, round butt. M41 ball ammo used with all.

Mark-

It seems to me that emptying one's sidearm at the enemy from the plane would defeat its purpose as a survival/defense item, but I'm sure that there were men who'd do it. Also read of Army pilots in small planes firing at the enemy that way. Bill Mauldin even drew a cartoon of Willie & Joe in a Piper Cub. (?) One said to the other (brandishing his .45) "Wanta go down and strafe 'em,?"

There is a supposedly true story of a B-17 waist gunner whose .50 cal. had run out of ammo when he saw an incoming Bf-109 shooting at him. He pulled out a S&W .38 and returned fire. A lucky bullet hit the German pilot, killing him! Can anyone confirm this feat?


Hoplophile-

Thanks for the account of current Naval aviator sidearms. I suspect that the M-11 wll suffice in most cases, if the man issued it knows how to shoot.

Alas, an RAF pilot in the Gulf war mentioned having to turn in his Browning 9mm for a Walther PPK!

T-Star

Anyone have a good explanation for the number of bullet loops? Since 6 doesn't figure out equally to 31, why the combination? Maybe that's all the longer the strap cover could be so they weren't sitting with rounds sticking in their back???

This is probably the wrong answer, but as those carrying .38's were often told to leave the chamber under the hammer empty, the 31st round might have been used to top it up after realizing that action might be imminent?

If I had to crash land or parachute, I'd want to load the top chamber once I was safely on the ground.

T-Star
P.S. No one responded to my earlier mention of the movie, "The Bridges at Toko-Ri", but when Wm. Holden's character was about to ditch his Panther fighter in North Korea, his wingman called out a checklist, including his revolver. He had one. (Note: in the book,they were flying Banshees. The movie changed that to F-9F Panthers. Good film.)

My Dad was an aviation radioman on the USS Ommaney Bay and was with composite squadron VC75. I attended many reunions with him and spoke to many shipmates. (BTW, my Dad is 85 years young and still rides his motorcycle). The aviation crews mainly carried the Victory model. Though, I was told one story of a radioman in an Avenger handling his 1911 and it fired. Luckily for him it only punched a hole in the side door window. I also spoke to an aviation radioman who's .30 caliber machine gun jambed as they were strafing, in frustration, he held open the side door with his foot and used his Victory model. The photos that I have seen of the squadron, they all have the Victory model in a shoulder holster with cartridge loops on the strap.

I have a great photo of one of the crews that had to make an emergency landing on an island only partially held by US forces. I don't know how to post a photo. If someone will pm me, I'd be glad to scan it and send it to be posted. I can include the story of the event too.

The rarest Navy issued Victory Models may be the 50 or so that were shipped by Smith directly to the Coast Guard. The guns have Navy marks but will letter as shipped to the Coast Guard at Yorktown Virginia for PSUs. As late as 1983 some of these guns were still on duty at MSO Miami. An old CO was allowed to purchase one when he retired. He got the letter and I think they were shipped before June 42.

This information always puzzled me. I had several relative sever with as PSUs (Port Security Units) before the duty was turned over to the reserves. There was such a shortage of guns that my grandfather was allowed to supply his own 1911. From 12/7/1941 until he went overseas 11/1942 he carried my great grandfather’s WWI 1911 (not A1). We still have that gun.

[QUOTE=TomcatPC;1227245]Hello

I have said this quite a few times and I think that many here are tired of me bringing up my Dad that was a gunner in a TBM Avenger during the War.

Anyway, I already posted this in another topic in this forum. My Dad has told me that they were issued with tracer cartridges for their revolvers. He mentions removing the paint (Red, I think?) from the bullets with steel wool. I am not sure if they were only issued with tracer rounds or they also had ball cartridges as well. Next time I see him I will ask (that does not mean he will remember though LOL). However, from what I have heard from his squadron mates at reunions, my gut reaction tells me they were issued both tracer and ball ammunition.


My Dad was also a gunner on an Avenger, VT-88, off the Yorktown. He had brought home his Victory, and as a kid, I only remember the US Property markings, not Navy marked. He also had a cigar box half full of ammo, about half was ball, the rest was tracers. I kind of thought that the tracers were different colors, I would seperate them by colors, that's why I think they were different. My Dad sold it for cash a long time ago. Boy I wish I could find where his Victory is now, I would give anything to get it back.

Talked to my Dad about his M&P he carried in Korea as a Marine Corps pilot tonite. Said that they were issued their M&P's and kept them in their barracks all the time, for a while anyway. He said they were issued a total of 14 rounds....7 ball, 7 tracer. How on earth they came up with that number I will never know, and he doesn't either. He said that he was told if he had to parachute out over N Korea to take that thing while he was in the air and throw it as far as he could.....since the common wisdom was that the N Koreans would use it as a Smith and Wesson suppository......
Anyway, he says one of the pilots, after they had been grounded by moonsoon rains for a couple of weeks took his 38 and shot holes in the plywood floor to drain it after water had puddled up.....alcohol was involved...and they had to put their 38's in their flight lockers after that...
Of course, not everyone did...
Dad is supposed to send me pics of him carrying his Victory Model this week and I will post them if you like....
He flew for the VMA 121 in Korea....

Ben,
What a web site you put together. A real tribute to your father and the HQ Company. I kept the link and read it this morning when I had a little time. I will show it to my son who is 10. He is very interested in history and it is not being told in the classroom on a personal level.
Good luck in your search for the Marine S&W's.

The VT-1 marking is sort of interesting. That is fixed wing training squadron 1, which when I went through it in 1970, was based at Saufley Field near Pensacola. I believe they now operate out of NAS Pensacola proper. In VT-1, I was isssued a knife, to cut the canopy open in an emergency. Never saw anyone carrying a revolver!

EPJ,
I ran into to this also at the onset of this research adventure. VT-1 in WWII was certainly a different animal back then. If you look at the 4th photo in the original post about the ship, you'll see she served in quite a few conflicts after WWII also.

I've also attached another photo of the USS BENNINGTON from October 1944 that clearly shows an AVENGER on the left catapult of the flight deck. Also alot of other folding wings on the deck.



But you are right, VT-1 did become a training unit out of Pensacola much...much later, after WWII. VT was the Navy designator for a Torpedo Squadron before 1945 and changed after that to a Training Squadron. Declassified documents from 11 January, 1944 confirmed the location of U.S. Naval Aircraft and listed VT-1 in the Pacific Fleet as TBM's.

Oddly enough, the flight group was ready to go before the USS BENNINGTON was and VT-1 TBM's actually spent approx 3 months on the Yorktown CV-10 (second one, first one, CV-5 was sunk at Midway.) waiting for the USS BENNINGTON to launch.

I think you can see why this took 2 years....!

Hello

Way off topic, I'm sorry. But whilst we are still on the topic of USN torpedo squadrons. If anyone comes across any items marked for VT-34 that was posted to the USS Monterey (CVL-26), please let me know.

I wished I had a US Victory Model to actually contribute to this topic, but I don't as of yet. God willing in the coming years that will change.
Thanks
Mark

TomcatPC, keeping WAY off topic, my father did his carrier training on the Monterey in 50-51. They flew Hellcats on and off the deck off Pensecola.

Great pics and history fellows. Thanks for sharing.

Hello

Like I said many times before, I don't have a US Victory Model to contribute to this topic. However, this might be of a bit of interest...maybe. In 2008 my Dad's squadron had a reunion. My Dad had made a "book" on his memories of the War and had copies made for his Comrades and family members. For many of the "stories" he made drawings to go along. This drawing is interesting in that he drew the bandoleer for .38 Special cartridges they carried. Also, if this is big enough to read, he mentions removing the paint from the tracer rounds.
Thanks
Mark

Hello again.

Another story/drawing with image of bandoleer for revolver cartridges. This is a "self portrait" of my Dad in Tokyo Bay on 10 JULY 45. I placed pieces of paper to cover last names, many of these people are still living and I don't like posting last names without permission. This story also mentions the crew of the submarine (USS Gabilan) "liberating" their revolvers, knives, goggles, etc LOL.
Thanks
Mark

On the last page of his book he included a photo of a photo of Victory Model that I gave him. I printed the photo off of an auction site, to give to him to jar his memory about his sidearm.
My Dad could not recall the details of his Victory Model revolver until I started asking questions LOL. For the longest time he told me he thought that was a .32 Cal. LOL.
Thanks
Mark

History comes to us in many ways....much like WWI trench art. All of it different but reflective of those that were actually there.

As far as gifting and trading, many that served on ships unfortunately never got the opportunity to get a war trophy, but they all deserved one.

My father was a Sgt in the 25th Infantry Division "Tropic Lightning", fought thru the Pacific and into the Japanese Homeland. He had declared a couple of Japanese Rifles, 2 Japanese Swords, Japanese Flags, etc along the way and sent them home legally. I have them now.

He captured a Japanese Nambu with the holster and accessories out of a cave and carried it everywhere he went thru the Pacific. Insisted it was his "good luck charm."

Months later, when he was boarding the ship to come home, the Shore Patrol found it in his duffle bag. Undeclared, they said it had to be confiscated. He asked to see it one more time before turning it in.....they agreed and before they could stop him, he tossed it into Tokyo Bay. He reasoned some years later that "if it wasn't his...it wasn't anyones!"

Amazing how these battle hardened men got attached to specifc things they determined may have been "lucky" for them.

I find you fathers drawings very interesting and personal. Great treasure you have secured from him.

Gentlemen:

Abarbanel sent me the photo mentioned in his post above for posting here. Here it is.

There are several things interesting about the photo. The three aviators (pilot, turret gunner, radioman/bombardier/ventral gunner on a TBF Avenger) are all armed with Victory Models carried in M3 style holsters with the fabric ammo loops sewn onto the strap. Notice that two are carrying their canteens on their M1936 pistol belts on their left hips. If worn in the usual location on the back side behind the left hip they would not be able to wear the parachute harness or sit comfortably in the aircraft seats. None of the aviators appear to have the holster belt loop strap affixed to the flight suit belt.

Another nugget is the helmeted Marine. He is also seen wearing a Victory in an M3 style holster but without the ammo loops. This is somewhat unusual as there are few contemporary pics of non-aviation Marines in ground combat settings armed with the Victory.



Thanks to Abarbanel for making this interesting photo available to the Forum membership.

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

It appears to me that all the aviators have lanyards on their revolvers as well....

Ordnanceguy, great photo. I agree with your comment about the scarcity of photos of Marine ground troops with Victorys. The impression I get from contemporary accounts is that most tried to get a 1911a1 rather than a Victory.

I asked my Dad a week or so to mail me a couple of pictures of him in Korea with his Victory Model. He dropped these two in the mail to me, and we talked about them over the phone. These were both 1953 Korea, and he thinks at K-3. I have seen these pics before, but it never struck me that he carried the M3 holster as a belt holster, not a shoulder holster. (notice the V model is on his left hip, crossdraw in both pictures) He said that all the pilots he flew with wore them that way, that with the parachute straps, Mae West, and everything else that the hip was much more comfortable..
Dad was a pilot in VMA 121, flying Skyraiders.
The original pics are much clearer than these images I scanned...

Hey Sheriff:

Those are some great pics of your dad. Another great example of a Marine finding a way to make his equipment work better for him than designed.

Thanks for the post.

Regards,
Charlie Flick

__________________
Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I have seen photos of WWII bomber crew members wearing their M3 shoulder holsters on the waist like that, but cattying 45 autos

Hello

Next time I see my Dad I'll try and remember to see if he has a decent photo of him in flight gear with his revolver visible. I know he has at least good photo taken on the flight deck on the USS Monterey towards the end of the War, but his Mae West obscures his revolver. There is also another photo of him hanging onto the horizontal stab.of the TBM he was in got shot down in Tokyo Bay on 10 JULY 45 before it went beneath the waves. I have seen the photo many times, not sure if the photo is close enough to see detail though.
Thanks
Mark

I'd like to send a pic of the Monterey to Dad...he will like seeing that