If you were going to offer this for sale, what would ask for it? Hammer is a replacement and stocks are not numbered to the gun. No box or docs. Factory cut the barrel from 6" to 4" and reblued in 1948. I have been told that only one other of the 50 UHP guns is known in a collection (but I can't verify that). What think on realistic value?

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No life story has happy end.

I'm more of a Kit Gun guy than RM guy, but I guess the short answer is to start at six and see how far you have to come down to do the deal.

There are some rich guys in Utah that might like it, and I assume they'd go higher than guys in the other 49 or the RM-collecting countries. But if the gun went to market on a day when Utah slept in, I'd think it could go to four, fournahalf.

To my mind the alterations don't hurt it that much because they are themselves over 60 years old and done by the people that made the gun in the first place. If somebody had cut and reblued any otherwise good RM 12 years ago, its value would have crashed. But 1948 is only 10 years after it was shipped. The alterations were done at the factory, which is good, and I would guess the hammer was swapped out at that time. The letter says it came with a humpback, I take it? Or do you conclude it is not original because it just a postwar long action hammer without the patent marking?

Kind of a nice gun. The Utah thing does not do much for me, but it might be worth a few more bucks to collectors who follow marked LE guns.

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David Wilson

hi
I think the top would be in the 3500.00 range the grips help and the
inscriped name helps but the barrel being cut does not help.
factory reblued guns are about half of orginal guns.
so I think 3500 to 3850.00 would be the range.
jim

David:

The the pre-war magnum hammers were all grooved on the sides. This one has no grooves and therefore must be a replacement hammer.

SP:

I have seen a a bunch of RM's being offered in the $4K to $6K range, but not many transactions occurring in that range, unless there were some goodies (box, grip adapter, certificate, tube...) to go with the gun. Your UTHP has always been interesting to me and if I recall correctly, many of the UTHP pre-war magnums were sent back to have the barrels cut. With that said, I would also start a bit high on the offer price and see what the market offered. I think that it would probably trade hands in the $2.5K to $3.5K range...

My $0.02,

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Richard, thanks for the education. I knew that early RMs had the grooved hammers, but I never knew that all of the prewar guns did.

As to the values and potential prices suggested by others, I am learning there too. Trust a Kit Gun guy to overestimate something's value!

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David Wilson

I concur with a lot of the comments, I think the replaced hammer is a big negative. I would figure it in the $2500 to $3000 range

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Gary Grace
S&WCA #1837

The hammer issue makes it just a shooter. You should sell it to me for $750

Out of curiousity, have you had it lettered?

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Aaron Terry

I agree with the value that others here have already stated. I believe that $3500.00 would be the top end for this gun unless someone just had to have it because of the Utah connection. The factory re-blue and cut barrel don’t bother me half as much as the non original hammer.

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John
S&WCA Life Member

I agree with the $3500 top end. FWIW there was a UHP gun at the Tulsa SWCA dinner

[QUOTE=aterry33;135437438]The hammer issue makes it just a shooter. You should sell it to me for $750 [QUOTE]

A SaxonPig answer to a SaxonPig question.

All the prewar magnums were RMs, right?

I like the idea of trying to sell it in Utah. I'd peg it at under $2K, maybe under $1.5K. For me, the lack of the proper grooved hammer really detracts from it, much more so than the shortened bbl. Maybe find a guy with an RM hammer on an OD, and somehow try to talk him out of it by offering a proper OD hammer and some cash?

(Say, the ODs with RM hammers were not shipped like that, right? I assume somebody swiped an RM hammer off an RM for some odd reason and stuck it in an OD....)

Arlo

There are both registered magnums and unregisterd magnums, pre-WW2. The latter category came after the factor discontinued the registration program.

I don't see why the gun should not sell in the $3500 to $5000 area.
If there are only 50 UTHP guns, they are scare. Of course, it may be
that the only thing rarer than a UTHP regmag is a UTHP regmag collector. I suppose the problem is that if only one person is seriously interested, and that person knows that no one else is interested, then
it going to be difficult to get top dollar for it.

Later, Mike Priwer

Thanks, Mike. I certainly defer to you as to value -- you know a lot more about it than I do. (And that's good news for SP! )

I tend to lump the RMS and NRMs together, philistine that I am, i.e., any of the 5K+ guns Roy discusses in his seminal article of 1989. I meant that there was only one model (RM/NRM) magnum pre-war, it was in 357, and that all of these had the grooved hammer. There were no other pre-war magnums. Produced by S&W, I s'pose I should add.

How about the RM hammer on ODs though? Now I seem to recall that maybe some of the transitional OD models in the early postwar years had the RM hammers, that perhaps the factory used left over grooved hammers on these... But wait... Maybe that was RM bbls...)

How did RM hammers show up on ODs? That's the question I have now.

(Say, somebody better jump in here quick with accurate info before I totally pollute the knowledge base with misinformation!)

Actually the grooved hammer pre-dated the RM by a wide margin and are found on the early 1917 models so they are not unique to the RM. Knowing the proclivity of S&W not to waste parts I would not be surprised at all to find them on OD's.

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John. SWCA #1586

ODs and 44 3rds had their own unique hammers, the ungrooved HBH. The garden variety hammers were just plain case hardened. We see more RMs with plain hammers than anything with grooved hammers that didn't have them originally.

We have a theory (we being the old RM crowd) that when any prewar magnum came back to the factory, the good service folks removed and discarded the beautiful grips and hammers, and replaced them with the ugliness being foisted on the public at the time. Nearly all the KC guns we see were refinished. Some more than once. A fair number of them lost thier grooves.

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Dick Burg

True, true. But still, only one S&W prewar magnum model (RM/NRM), and they were all shipped with grooved hammers. I was reacting to "I knew that early RMs had the grooved hammers, but I never knew that all of the prewar guns did."

Are the grooved hammers on early 1917s identical to the RM grooved hammers with the exception of the markings?

On the old RM crowd theory that the factory removed the grooved hammers and replaced them with whatever hammer was contemporary to the time of factory repair, what is the theory on what the factory did with those beautiful grooved hammers? (Surely the hammers were worth more at the time than the wooden grips, and also hammers don't wear like grips so just giving them heave-ho seems mighty profligate..)

Ya know, I've heard that theory about the prewar grips being replaced will-nilly, and that makes sense to me, as a well-intentioned customer service freebee at the time, but with hammers.... As an RM whippersnapper (relatively speaking anyway !), I dunno if I buy that. In addition to being more expensive than a wooden grip to produce -- I assume so, anyway -- the new hammers would need some fitting, too, no? And that would be labor intensive, right?

I'm no expert, having only one RM and having bought that one twice, but I'd say $3500 at the top, and $3000 would be a fair price, given the hammer issue and lack of numbered grips.

I have purchased similar RMs. I paid 1400 for a KCRM that was refinished (poorly) and had post war rear sight. I paid 3300 for a New Hampshire State Police RM with a factory refinish (seemed too expensive but I wanted it). It depends on the desire of the seller to sell and the desire of the buyer to purchase. The hammer of this gun would bug me. I don't want to purchase it and that figures in my valuation of it. For me, the value would be around 2000. The worth of my opinion is a subject for another thread.

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Dennis

Cut down barrel, non-original stocks and re-finish always make guns I own junk and no more than shooters...or so I've always been told. I suspect in this case none of those conditions/circumstances would reduce the price to where I could afford it.

I'll have to wait for the little old lady selling her deceased husband's nasty old gun, just to get rid of it, before I'll ever be able to afford a RM. (LOL)

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

I don't think the grooved hammers found on 1917's are the same as the ones found on RM's. I believe the grooves on the sides are the same but the checkering on top differs (if I recall correctly). I have never been fortunate enough to have an early 1917 (yet) so I'm going from memory. I do have a pre war outdoorsman that has a grooved humpback. I thing another forum member (Jerry maybe) also has one with same grooved hammer from the same late serial number range (62000 IIRC). I think they may be factory but shipping records missing per Mr. Jinks.

Roger

The UHP bought 50 of these. All were 6", blued, inscribed and numbered 1-50 (this is #27). They were delivered in 3 shipments.

The guns were in service until 1954 when they were replaced by 3.5" post-war magnums. Between 1947 and 1952 all 50 were returned to the factory for refinish. I assume all had the stocks replaced with post-war type. A previous owner installed the correct pre-war Magnas it now wears. The hammer on this one (and maybe others or even all) was replaced likely due to corrosion from being carried in a holster in a region with lots of snow in the winter. All the barrels were cut to 4" by S&W at the time of the other work.

Yes, I have the letter and that's where I got this info. The letter calls this a "Registered Magnum" even though apparently police contract guns are often not called such by some collectors.

I bought this 4-5 years ago and paid $3,000 so the estimates of $1,500 - $2,500 are understandably discouraging. I was not advised of the replaced hammer by the seller, discovering it only upon receiving the revolver. At the time I decided that I overpaid maybe $500 for it. But I kept it as I wanted it.

Now I am trying to raise cash and thinking about selling some of my more valuable pieces. I have seen a couple of RMs sell recently for what I thought were high prices so I was wondering if this particular gun, far from perfect but somewhat scarce due its being one of 50 special order and inscribed guns, might have appreciated enough to tempt me into selling it.

Sadly, it appears that is not the case. It will remain where it is for the time being. Maybe in a couple years the situation will change, either because of rising values or increased desperation on my part.

Thanks for the input.

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No life story has happy end.

Please , I need help.

I have a S & W 38 CTG SN 365994 5 " barrel

Oct 3. 01 Dec 17.01 Feb 6.06 Sept 14.09 Dec 29.14

How old is it?
Approx. Worth?

Thanks

Bill777- You will get better response if you start your own thread.

Sounds like a Military & Police Model from the 1920s. Value $5 - $500 based on info provided.

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No life story has happy end.

Had to go look in my safe....

So, I guess three of them are still around?

I have photos in my records of SP's #27 and your beautifully refinished #12. SP in this thread Now that a 2nd one has turned up, anyone know of others? references a #19. If it was not #19 at the Tulsa show, then there are at least 4.

Like I said above, I have always loved the UT HP RM's and would like to add one to my growing collection at some time.

Also, I noted in reviewing Sgt 127's photo of #12, that it did have a 4" barrel and a grooved hammer, making me believe that the factory most likely did not routinely switch out the hammers when they cut the barrels.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

SaxonPig

A word of caution of pricing questions. Opinions will always vary and the only way to tell is test the market. As you're well aware, it's worth exactly what someone will pay for it.

Re the gun itself - the replaced hammer makes it less desirable but can be rectified, there are original hammers around if you look hard.

What really has a negative effect on the price is the cut barrel and the factory 1948 (?) stamp. Sadly, you can't fix the original barrel.

Some (knowledgable) people will argue that the date stamp alone means it may have been refinished. I personally don't subscribe to the theory, but I've seen it quoted so many times on this forum that it's taken on the guise of an urban legend. The nicest RM in my collection is a stunning 5" which has 2 post-war date stamps. No one would buy it from Lyle Larkworthy as they were convinced it was refinished. I paid $3000 for it several years ago and believe it to be absolutely perfect. Several well known dealers have examined the gun and declared the finish as factory original, including HandEjector, esteemed owner of this forum. Didn't make a blind bit of difference to the price though - opinion was that you don't pay top dollar for a date stamped gun.

In years to come, when the SWHF completes the project to digitize the S&W paper records, we may be able to tell what happened to your gun in 1948. Assuming we ever get enough people interested in joining and supporting the SWHF that is...

Good luck with selling the RM.

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Dave Ballantyne

I don't have to guess at what service was done. The letter from Roy states that all 50 guns were returned to S&W for refinishing and barrel cutting. I assume all 50 were sent meaning none will now have original wood and some will have other replaced parts, as well.

The agency had decided by 1947 to go with a shorter barrel length and had the 6" RMs cut to 4". When they bought new guns in 1954 they got 3.5" Magnums. Even if one did miss the trip back to S&W for service, I doubt that any of these guns will have a beautiful original finish as they were duty pistols carried in holsters and used in a harsh environment.

As for value, naturally it's worth what someone will pay. I just wanted some indication of general value to see if I wanted to try to sell at this time.

By the way, where would one find an original hammer?

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No life story has happy end.

Saxon Pig:

I was looking through some old e-mails last night, looking for some information on another UHP gun I have and discovered that I bought my UHP .44 Special from the same guy you bought your UHP Reg Magnum from. The seller and I discussed your gun and he sent me several photos of it. I really wanted to buy it but it was just too expensive for me.

That dealer always got top dollar for his guns. I haven't seen him on this forum for a long time.

At the time I felt that I was paying a little more than what the gun was really worth but I wanted it. From what I am now hearing maybe I paid WAY too much for it.

I was very disappointed when it turned out to have a replacement hammer that was not revealed in discussions with the seller despite my specifically asking about the originality of the gun. I still enjoy having it and the only reason I am contemplating selling it is because I am trying to raise cash to pay off my mortgage.

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No life story has happy end.

SaxonPig, I would think that in time you will be okay with what you paid. Now is not the time to be selling collectible guns, it is the time to be buying. In my humble opinion the prices in general are falling do to the economy. In a recent auction, the million dollar 45ACP Luger sold for half that. As the economy picks back up and people re-enter the "gun investment pool" you should be okay, as there are no more being made.

I am a bit surprised at how so many replies indicate disastrous effects to the value from the factory refinish and barrel cutting. I thought that I had read that work done by the factory, particularly if it was done a long time ago, had a minimal effect of value. Plus, a 4" gun is much more interesting to me than is a 6" version but this just shows why I am no expert.

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No life story has happy end.

SaxonPig, you are playing in a market I know nothing about, but if you are willing to sell your gun at the "right price" for you, then why wouldn't you list it on Gunbroker, set the reserve at your minimum price, and then see what happens? BTW, I suspect Joe Kent may be correct, but I also wonder if the market for old revolvers will dry up as the baby boomers die off and the Glock aged kids mature.

Problem is I don't know what the "right price" might be. I don't think it's fair to put it up for auction with a high reserve just to test the waters. I was hoping that the serious folks could establish a baseline for me. Sounds like I will keep it a while and see what happens down the road. Not desperate to sell, just could use the cash elsewhere.

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No life story has happy end.

SP:

I just went back and re-read the whole thread. I don't think that the trip back to the factory and reblue for a duty gun, (given the fact that all of the UTHP RM's went back for the same treatment) would detract from the value in this case. I do think that the replacement hammer is a much bigger detraction to the value. I believe that one of the biggest issues with value is that the "investment grade" collectors of RM's (the guys willing to pay the big bucks) are looking for the highest condition guns (and related goodies) that are out there and those are the RM's that will command top dollar.

In my opinion the UTHP RMs may appeal to a different segment of collector - one who enjoys having a gun with some history and an "in use" connection to a period of history where the 357 was the biggest and baddest handgun available. However, these collectors often times are not willing to pay the same price that the investment guys are willing to pay.

My question to you would be, what do you think it is worth? If you want to see if your thoughts are close to the market - post it for sale on the forum at a price that you would be willing to part with it. Post that you will entertain offers and see what the market says.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Forum rules require a firm price.

Anyone have a correct hammer?

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No life story has happy end.

S.P.,

I agree with Richard that the hammer is weak point in selling that gun. The rest of it's history is just fine with me - and a number of others, I'm sure.

I did see a hammer at a show a couple of months ago but passed on it it - mainly because I didn't need one. If I recall correctly, the seller was asking for ~ $150. If I catch him next month, I'll forward contact info to you.

Best Of Luck on this,

Jerry

I think that the "firm price" rule you referring to is not as firm as you might remember. It is rule number 4:

"4. All "For Sale" items must have a price attached. We do not allow "make offer" ads, this creates a de-facto auction and is not allowed. You are more than welcome to establish a price, with "Or Best Offer"- OBO , but establishing a price is paramount."

What I was trying to express in my post above fits within the rules, but instead of making it an auction (starting low and being bid up - which is against the rules) I was recommending is that you set the price that you want to receive (or maybe a little higher than you want to receive) with "OBO" language - thus allowing you in effect to let prospective buyers "bid you down". If your offer is accepted then you know that you were at or below market. If you are above market (and I believe that there is a market that is interested in your UTHP) you give individuals an opportunity to make you an offer, allowing you to get a more true sense of what willing buyers are willing to pay, thus giving you a better indication of the "value" of your fine piece.

Best of luck with the search for a hammer and the sale of your RM.

BTW - I would recommend against selling it, as you may never have another chance to own a UTHP RM again. You can always make more money to pay down the mortgage.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I too have a few of these..RM and NonRegs and I'm in the same boat..I probably paid on the higher end when they were offered.They were going up and I had the cash and it was something that isn't offered everyday so I jumped.
I have one or 2 that were duty guns and arent perfect as well and I paid good money(got one from Lyle).

My advise,is with anything ...You know what you gave,you know what you'll take (or what would be a good enough offer for you to sale).Think about and list it for that but make sure its good enough so theres no backing up.It may be on the higher side but someone will pay...I know I have been guilty of it a time or two.

Jason

SP,
I side with Mike Priwer and Jim on this one.
The $ 1,500 RM's I've seen...a fair number...are nowhere near your gun.
Used-up, loose 'boat anchors' and 'door stops' still bring over a grand.
Also, I wouldn't fear an absolute auction.
The market is what it is, and has a remarkable tendency to achieve the so-called 'right' price.
I sold two RM's at auction, and after the initial nail-biting on the first few days, the serious, knowledgeable bidders jumped in and the guns were sold well, and fairly.
Don

I still wonder why Roy doesn't count the UHP guns as factory inscribed.

Seems to me they are. Do police contract guns not count?

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No life story has happy end.

Saxon,

As you know, there are many degrees of Reg. Mag. collector. At the apex are those who are only interested in pristine examples or extremely rare variations (they won't look at your gun). At the bottom of the pyramid are those masses of folks who would give whatever they could scrape together for a representative example of what they consider the pinnacle of the gun making art, no matter what its condition (yours is too nice for these folks). In between those extremes are those who collect guns that "speak to them" (perhaps a police marked/used gun or one that the original user modified to more accurately meet their needs).

I believe that your gun falls in that last category, primarily because of the UHP marking. I also have a couple of police RM's (a KyHP and a Dallas PD) that are refinished. Neither are as original as others in my collection, but frankly, I hold them in just as high esteem as I do the originals because of their history. When I go to sell them, I acknowledge that unless I find a like minded buyer, the two police guns will go for less than the originals.

I recall your angst when you first got that gun and discovered the replaced hammer. Replacement hammers can be found occasionally. Several years ago a former member here sold one on an auctions for $400. I needed one to replace one on an RM that had had the spur modified and I contacted that member, but too late to buy it. As it turns out, he had another and offered it to me for $300. He was a good friend and because I knew that he could sell it online for $400, I sent him a check for $400 because I valued his friendship more than the $100. I was very happy to find it and he was happy to get what he could have sold it for on the open market.

It might be possible to buy one for less but I think you might factor in a diminished value of $300-400 when you price your gun because that is an estimate of what it will cost you or the new owner to put it right. (We'd pay that for a good original set of grips and the grips are far more common than the hammers!)

I would expect that the best chance to find an RM hammer will be at the SWCA annual meeting in Tucson in July. I'll keep my eyes open for you and I expect others will be glad to do the same.

As far as pricing your gun goes, I imagine that Fisher, Priwer, and Ballentine have bought and sold more high dollar guns than all the rest of us combined so I would put a lot of weight on their comments.

Bob

I would appreciate hearing about a hammer for sale.

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No life story has happy end.

SP, I still have the hammer left over from a previous KCPD RM but it has a broken tip. I've hesitated before about mentioning it to you since it does have a broken tip. It is a grooved humpback hammer that a lot of the Kansas City guns seemed to have.
Just thought I'd run that by you depending on "what will do" for your situation. I don't have a working computer at home now so can't get a pic posted. I'd let it go for $100 shipped.

Roger

How does it compare to this one (also broken)?

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No life story has happy end.

Saxon,

You didn't ask me, but if you had, I would rather have that modified HP hammer back in the gun. That is one of the things that I would classify as an "acceptable user modification"...at least until an unmodified original one came along.

Just as the humpback was designed to ease the action of thumb cocking the gun, I'd guess that the original user thought that shortening the spur helped him with that function.

Of course, it is altogether possible that the spur was accidentally broken and just smoothed off. But, even if that was the case, it was acceptable to the officer who carried it.

Bob

Sorry for the late reply SP. Mine looks almost identical to that one and maybe even a little nicer. All patent markings are strong, no corrosion showing and it also still has the stirrup and sear.

Roger

Send me your mailing address via PM and I'll send you a check.

PS: I will still look for a nice standard hammer.

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No life story has happy end.