455 Second Model With 45 Colt Conversion

[merl67]

I traded for this one up today I had $400 in my trade I was a bit hesitant with the modifications ,but I don't encounter these ever around here. The obvious the barrel has been shortened to 4 inches with a rib and new front sight added The lanyard hole has been plugged ( barely visible ). The cylinder has been modified by the counter bore method serial number 20509. There is no caliber marking on the barrel doesn't look like it was ever there. The gun wasn't over polished I don't think because the rest of the stampings are easily read. Oh it has the broad arrow C mark for Canadian service. Does anyone have a idea on approximate ship date.

[merl67]

It appears I am mistaken as a 45 auto rim fits perfectly which is fine as I have brass and dies for that caliber.

[Muley Gil]

The .45 ACP cartridge, in moon clips, can also be used. However, .45 ACP is loaded to higher pressures than the original .455. If you do decide to use .45 ACP, load them down.

[DWalt]

Second model .455s in the SN range from 5462 to 74755 shipped during the 1915-17 period. It doesn't appear there is enough headspace to allow .45 AR cases to be used. Do their rims fit into the chamber recesses? And it would be a good idea to use lighter lead bullet handloads if you plan to shoot it.

[merl67]

I just dropped six in it and the cylinder rotates just fine is there any possibility of it working with 45 Colt as well I don't have any here but my brother loads that one for his Marlin. I was looking at my Cartridges Of The World the 45 Colt case rim is both smaller in diameter and thinner in rim thickness so I would think 45 Colt would not work if the cylinder closes and rotates with the 45 AR. Oh and my 45 AR rounds are in the 700 FPS range.

[cgt4570]

Very doubtful that you can shoot .45LC in a gun rechambered for .45ACP (with moon clips) and .45 Auto Rim. Even though the bullet is the same diameter, the headspacing and rim thickness are not even close.

[merl67]

This one has had been counter bored for the rim thickness. It has not had the cylinder shaved so i don't think moon clips will work I will find mine tomorrow and try them.

[steelslaver]

Even if 45 colt rounds do chamber it would have way to much headspace as the rim 45 ar cases are about .035.thicker than 45 colt cases. Firing pin may be to short to fire the colts reliably, but worse the over sized headspace would be very hard on the frame as it would allow the colt case heads to take a running start and slam the recoil shield hard

[Jack Flash]

If your brother has some .45 Colt cases, you may want to borrow 6 and see if they will fit in the cylinder, then if it will close and rotate. It will not hurt to try.

That looks like it was skillfully converted to what someone wanted. Obviously not a collector's item, but should be a real solid shooter.

[Wiregrassguy]

The chamber shoulders don't look deep enough for .45 Colt.

[6string]

Yes, it looks well done. Even the nickel job looks like someone took the time to carefully polish the metal.

The chambers look to be the original length. Not many people know it, but Dominion Ammunition of Canada used to make loaded ammo and brass that was longer than the typical British 455 Eley length. It was head stamped 455 Colt.
The side view looks like there is not enough headspace for half noon clips. Besides, if you were gonna use half moons, the counterbore method doesn't make a lot of sense.
It all depends on the depth of the counterboring. If it's roughly about .020" deep, then that would allow for conventional ~.060" rims as found on most rimmed ammo. To work with 45 Auto Rim, you'd need an extra .030" for a total counterbore depth of approx .050". That's pretty deep given the thickness of the extractor star.
Here's a possible idea: whoever did the conversion wanted to use 45 Colt brass and didn't mind trimming it to length to fit the existing chamber length. Sorta a "wildcat" handloader's proposition.
All just talk, though. Once you get some brass/ammo you'll know for sure.

Steelslaver's warning about excess headspace is good advice!

Enjoy that cool piece!

Best Regards,
Jim

[merl67]

I got out today and shot it as I already have some 45 Auto Rim that I had loaded for my 1917. I could only shoot twelve as we are getting rain off the hurricane. The first six were spread out but once I settled in the next six closed up with three shots touching and the rest could be covered with my hand and well centered. This gun is set up to hold the sights dead on center and is well balanced. I agree with what has been said above no way 45 Colt would work nor moon clipped 45ACP.

[Muley Gil]

"The chambers look to be the original length. Not many people know it, but Dominion Ammunition of Canada used to make loaded ammo and brass that was longer than the typical British 455 Eley length. It was head stamped 455 Colt."

It seems like it was a hundred years ago (more like 40+), but I once had a Webley & Scott MK IV revolver, with the original .455 chambering. I bought some of that Canadian ammo and it shot well and left very little powder residue behind.

[Jack Flash]

Originally Posted by 6string

...The chambers look to be the original length. Not many people know it, but Dominion Ammunition of Canada used to make loaded ammo and brass that was longer than the typical British 455 Eley length. It was head stamped 455 Colt. ...

There were six versions ("Marks" as the English called them) of this cartridge. The Mark I was originally a black powder round and had a case length of about 0.880", but you will find sources that give a different length. In 1894, the Brits began loading this round with Cordite to take advantage of the new smokeless powder technology. Less smokeless powder was required (by volume) so eventually they shortened the case to 0.760", and this became the Mark II version. Later on, Colt in the US and Dominion in Canada continued to offer the cartridge commercially, loaded with smokeless powder but retaining the Mark I length.

I believe that all the S&Ws and Colts supplied to England in the First World War had chambers that would accommodate the Mark I and of course, any of the shorter "Marks" of the .455. Since the max case length of the .45 Colt is 1.285", the chambers may well be too short if they haven't been reamed out at some point.

If you would like to read an authoritative source on the .455 cartridges:
Those Confusing .455s - International Ammunition Association

[Hondo44]

Whoever converted your gun did it exactly right for two reasons:

1. The chambers are recessed (counter bored) so that only 45 AR (14,000 PSI) can be used and not 45 ACP (19,000 PSI) which is ~30% over the pressure that the gun was designed for.

2. Your gun will still also properly and safely chamber 455 Mk I (or 455 Colt) & Mk II because their rims are larger diameter than the AR and will not fall into the recess. Therefore they will still maintain proper head space.

Another plus: you can shoot 45 Colt Cowboy Specials. The rim will be slightly deep in the chamber recess with extra head space. But the long firing pins of the day will fire them reliably as I have tested. And with no head space downsides at the pressure levels the gun was designed for since the cyl is not heat treated on the 455 models. Universal heat treating for all Hand Ejectors was only after 1920.

[merl67]

Update on my gun. My brother brought me some 45 Colt ammo it won't fully chamber as the chambers are still the length of 455 Webly. So unless I find a reamer cheap or can find one to borrow it will stay as it is.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by merl67

Update on my gun. My brother brought me some 45 Colt ammo it won't fully chamber as the chambers are still the length of 455 Webly. So unless I find a reamer cheap or can find one to borrow it will stay as it is.

If you ever do decide to go ahead with a .45 Colt rechambering job, the correct procedure is to ream the chambers a little short so that the .45 Colt rims do not seat flat on the cylinder (headspacing instead on the case mouth), but stick out the back slightly, just enough to allow the loaded cylinder to rotate freely. That will provide the proper headspace for the .45 Colt case. It is not dangerous.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by merl67

Update on my gun. My brother brought me some 45 Colt ammo it won't fully chamber as the chambers are still the length of 455 Webly. So unless I find a reamer cheap or can find one to borrow it will stay as it is.

Do you reload?

[Texas Star]

Just for clarity, someone above posted that Colt loaded .455 ammo, to MK I specs.

Nope. COLT does not/did not load ammo! The US-made .455 Colt ammo was loaded by Winchester and maybe by Remington. In Canada, CIL-Dominion loaded it. I've shot their .270, 7X57mm and .303 ammo and it was good.

Colt chambered the SAA, the Bisley, and the New Service for .455 Colt. These models were popular in England for target shooting and some were carried by officers, who bought their own sidearms prior to 1920. Colt also chambered for .450 and .476 Eley.

I've read that some bases in India stocked .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo, as these were popular calibers for officers, although not officially issued. They may have been used for sporting purposes, too.

In the 1930's, Colt published a nice little book called, "Colt On The Trail", in which their customers related accounts of exciting things that happened to them. One British lady in India used her husband's .45 New Service to kill a sloth bear that attacked her as she descended from a machan, where she'd been sitting up for a tiger. Her rifle had already been lowered, and the .45 was the only gun on her. She specifically called it a .45 Colt, not a .455. A big gun for a woman, but it worked!

Additionally, Lt Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC, who developed the Webley-Fosbery, wrote that the .44-40 was the best man-stopper he'd seen used in a revolver. He'd been fighting Pathans and Afghans. His VC was awarded for valor in battle in Kandahar.

I think he spelled it Khandahar then. Or maybe my spellchecker corrects only in American, not in English...

The .455 Colt threw a 265 grain bullet at about 750 FPS, as did issued MK I ammo. The MK II has the same bullet but at only about 600-625 FPS. Had I been a British officer before 1920, I'd have tried to buy commercial .455 Colt ammo and used it in a Webley-Wilkinson. The Model of 1911 was the most evolved, much like the later service MK VI, but with a bright blue finish and honed action. The stocks were checkered walnut with an inlaid gold oval for the owner's initials. The S&W MK II would have also had great appeal.

I've seen old ads for Webley WG revolvers re-chambered for .45 Colt, and the longer cylinder may well have accommodated .45 Colt. I think Elmer Keith mentioned these guns in, "Sixguns." One of his friends had a WG, shown in a photo of his handguns.

[Hondo44]

Interesting anecdotes!

In Post 13, it's posted that Dominion loaded to 455 Mk I with a 455 Colt headstamp, which is true. I have some.

[merl67]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Do you reload?

I do indeed reload .

[Hondo44]

You probably know then that 45 AR brass is readily available again.

[Texas Star]

You probably won't fare well with .452 bullets. The .455 barrel and, probably, chambers, are for larger bullets.

Some use .45 Colt bullets in converted .455's. A 250 grain SWC at the permissible velocity of 750-800 FPS should be deadly at close range.

[merl67]

Jim
I am aware that 45 AR brass is available.I have 200 pieces of Starline brass. I have loaded 100 rounds of 45AR with a .452 dia. 250 grn. Hunter hardcast bullets they should generate about 750 FPS. I don't think I will have a problem with them being too undersized for the bore (see photo). I am just thinking that if I ream the chambers to allow to shoot 45 Colt it would give me another ammo option.

[Hondo44]

It'll shoot fine with the hard cast bullets.

The 45 Colt will be another good cartridge option. The chambers just need to be reamed for the case mouth to headspace on the chamber shoulder so the rim is .035" short of seating in the 45 AR chamber recess.

455 Mk II ~ .040” rim thickness Headspace in 455 = .040”

45 AR ~ .090” rim thickness, - .050" recess req'd = .040" headspace
45 Colt ~ .055” rim thickness, - .015" recess req'd = .040" headspace

Difference in recess depth for 45 Colt = .035" less depth.

[ddixie884]

I think the .45AR is a perfect caliber, since brass is again available from Star-Line. H&K makes a speed loader for the .45AR. I believe it is marked 25M.

[Texas Star]

Originally Posted by ddixie884

I think the .45AR is a perfect caliber, since brass is again available from Star-Line. H&K makes a speed loader for the .45AR. I believe it is marked 25M.

But the soft lead bullets sometimes don't take the rifling well. It's meant for jacketed bullets. I've read that hard-cast lead bullets do okay.

What's your experience with factory .45 AR ammo?

[Hondo44]

My hand loaded 45 AR is all I shoot in my 1917, 1937 Brazilian, 1950 Military, and Pre Model 26. They're as accurate as hardball ACP with my #5 Lyman alloy cast bullets and an equivalent load.