ID & value of 38

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Read (and re-read) all the posting info, so here ya go!

38
Hand ejector
No Model number (however, 7634 is on the yoke, and I believe this is an assembly number.)

SN 137XXX (6 digits, and butt/cylinder/barrel are matching)
5 screw
Fixed sights, both front and rear.
5" barrel (measured as detailed on the info page)
Strain screw - yes

other randomness- wood grips, bright stainless, no butt swivel

[Elroy]

Originally Posted by Cuffs-Merritt

bright stainless

not very bright and definitely NOT stainless.

Your example is a NICKEL plate M&P from the late teens.
As for value........modest at best.

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by Elroy

not very bright and definitely NOT stainless.

Your example is a NICKEL plate M&P from the late teens.
As for value........modest at best.

as opposed to brushed or satin, or blue, so there was a clear understanding of its appearance. but thanks...

[JP@AK]

ID:
It is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905, from about 1907 or 1908.

As noted above, it had the nickel finish. There were no production stainless steel revolvers until 1965.

Value:
Not high. For me, it wouldn't support a price higher than about $300 in that condition.

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

ID:
It is a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905, from about 1907 or 1908.

As noted above, it had the nickel finish. There were no production stainless steel revolvers until 1965.

Value:
Not high. For me, it wouldn't support a price higher than about $300 in that condition.

Helpful, thank you! Is it worth having it restored? I do not know its provenance, only that I received it from at retired FBI agent...

[gmborkovic]

Mr. Cuffs, nice old early 1905 in 38 Spl. First off, dont get carried away cleaning it. For now just an oily cloth. No steel wool or wire wheel. Just concentrate on stabilizing and conserving it. The grips look period correct,.

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Mr. Cuffs, nice old early 1905 in 38 Spl. First off, dont get carried away cleaning it. For now just an oily cloth. No steel wool or wire wheel. Just concentrate on stabilizing and conserving it. The grips look period correct,.

Grips, Im going to guess yes?

And that's Mrs...

[Sevens]

Mrs. Cuffs, it's a historically significant revolver. It is not a valuable one, simply because of the way old guns get their value in the collectible gun market. It's an early version of what became the largest single model in handgun history -- a K-frame, .38 Special chambered Smith & Wesson double action revolver.

This design was sooooooo good that it became extremely popular and everyone wanted one. It's also got a massive history as a law enforcement duty gun. It's been estimated that (generally speaking) over six million of this "model" were made in the 120+ years of it's existence.

So when an old gun was made in tremendous supply, there are basically two different ways for it to get a high collector value. First is if it is in tip-top condition, closest to "unused and untouched" is what we're talking about. The second way is if it has verifiable odd, rare but factory original features. A combo of both can make a revolver like this valuable, and when it lacks both, it's just a cool old "shooter grade" relic.

It is almost surely NOT worth being restored, if by worth we mean dollar value. In a case like this, whatever it would cost for a professional restoration would not be recouped by a later sale... because it would no longer be original.

[raljr1]

I agree with Jack, probably no more than $300. Restoring it would probably end up costing you $500, and you'd have a $400 or $500 gun, but it might look nicer. Some folks would simply polish it and leave it as it cleans up. If you were to request a letter of authenticity form the historical society, and it turns out it was delivered directly to a specific person of fame or notoriety, the value would increase. But you'd have to invest $100 for the letter and most likely find out it shipped to Mel's Hardware or some such place.

[A10]

Restored guns are basically refinished guns, and that seriously affects value. As previously stated, oil and a good rag are about all you should do at this point.
The real interest is in its previous owner. If he was indeed an FBI agent and it can be attributed to him, details on him and his career can increase the value of the gun. Collectors love that stuff! Actual documentation (statements from his wife or children, assigned work areas, etc.) can be important.
Regardless of any value increase, hunting the information down can be fascinating! Enjoy your new piece of history!
Cool gun btw...

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the peanut and cotton covered plains of the Wiregrass! The problem with nickel plated guns is they look worse than a blued gun with equivalent wear. There are a couple of ways to make it look better without refinishing the plating.

Blue Wonder Gun Bore Cleaner will remove the rust and clean the bore without damaging the finish. A gun this old will likely have some bore corrosion and that needs to be arrested. There may also be residual lead or copper in the bore grooves that it will remove. But, before cleaning with Blue Wonder, I would immerse the gun, sans grips, for about a week in a 50-50 mixture of auto transmission fluid and acetone in a chemical resistant and sealable container so the acetone doesn't evaporate. After soaking it, remove and spray it down with aerosol carb/parts/brake cleaner. Flush the cleaner into the action through the hammer or trigger opening until the effluent runs clear. The cleaner will evaporate and then you can clean the rusty areas with Blue Wonder Cleaner. When you are down to bare metal where the plating is gone, polish the entire gun with Mother's Mag polish until the bare spots blend with the plated and it will look as good as you can make it. Then, you can either coat it with Renaissance Wax or a good quality, clear carnauba floor wax. OR, just keep the outside coated with a light film of gun oil.

Or, you can use Naval Jelly to remove the rust after soaking it in the mixture and following procedure I mentioned before. Polish and wax and you're good to go.

I hope you can get it looking good since it seems to be in pretty nice condition for being 100+.


Edit: Uh. After cleaning, you need to lightly lubricate the action, and parts that move like the yoke bolt and center pin.

[DWalt]

Most everything said is correct. Refinishing is not advisable, as all you accomplish is to spend a lot of money to remove value. An ordinary Model of 1905 in that condition is common and is nothing but a shooter, unless there is some authoritative documentation linking it to a famous person or historical event (that is a high hurdle). The closest serial number to yours I have listed is 137808, which shipped in March 1910. FWIW, a Model of 1905 is a K-frame Smith and Wesson revolver having a square butt made during the time period of approximately 1905 to 1915. After that, S&W designated it as simply the ".38 Military and Police" model. It was also made by S&W in another caliber, the .32-20. Those chambered in .32-20 are somewhat less common than revolvers like yours which is chambered in .38 S&W Special. However, yours will continue to serve its original purpose as long as it receives some care and respect. Having its original grips is a positive feature - most wood grips from that time have disappeared or are in poor condition. Take good care of them.

Regarding the FBI, there may be little or no connection of that revolver with it. The FBI in anything resembling its present form did not exist until the mid-1930s, 20-25 years after your revolver was made. That does not preclude its being used at a later time by an FBI agent, but that is not too likely. It could just as easily have been a gun taken from some criminal.

[gmborkovic]

Just to clarify, when we write about polishing and/or buffing, we mean by hand, not motorised by a wheel on a drill or Dremel. And gentil hand polishing.

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Thanks All!

I have another K frame that I had considered sending in the SN for a report on it. Its provenance is (Im almost positive) an original Bureau-issued .38 circa 1970. I carried and qualified with that one when I went through the LE academy. Its help me win numerous awards as a junior competitor as well.
I think I might as well send in for the history report on both of them, just to confirm or let me be at peace with it.

As for the Agent that owned it, that was my dad... He was an armor for several field offices throughout his career and avid collector/trader. It either has some significant meaning or something, he didn't waste his time or money on anything insignificant. Who knows...

Off to find that paperwork. Again.

Cheers y'all!

[VaTom]

[QUOTE=Sevens;141902839]Mrs. Cuffs, it's a historically significant revolver. It is not a valuable one, simply because of the way old guns get their value in the collectible gun market. It's an early version of what became the largest single model in handgun history -- a K-frame, .38 Special chambered Smith & Wesson double action revolver.

This design was sooooooo good that it became extremely popular and everyone wanted one. It's also got a massive history as a law enforcement duty gun. It's been estimated that (generally speaking) over six million of this "model" were made in the 120+ years of it's existence.

^^^^^^
Yes. My first issue revolver in 1976 when I became a LEO was a nickel 5" standard barrel Model 10. Later in 1979 when were issued 4". Other than the grips and the ejector rod knob (and the finish) mine looked like yours! 70 years later and LE agencies were still using basically the same design.

[first-model]

Ditto on the comments recommending that this gun not be restored / refinished.

The condition means that it's not worth much; I'd wager in the $300 to $350 range. If it was restored/refinished, I'd pass it over and not give it a second glance regardless of the price. There are far too many unrestored .38 M&Ps out there, and a restored/refinished gun is almost always going to be harder to sell.

Mike

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by Sevens

Mrs. Cuffs, it's a historically significant revolver. It is not a valuable one, simply because of the way old guns get their value in the collectible gun market. It's an early version of what became the largest single model in handgun history -- a K-frame, .38 Special chambered Smith & Wesson double action revolver.

This design was sooooooo good that it became extremely popular and everyone wanted one. It's also got a massive history as a law enforcement duty gun. It's been estimated that (generally speaking) over six million of this "model" were made in the 120+ years of it's existence.

So when an old gun was made in tremendous supply, there are basically two different ways for it to get a high collector value. First is if it is in tip-top condition, closest to "unused and untouched" is what we're talking about. The second way is if it has verifiable odd, rare but factory original features. A combo of both can make a revolver like this valuable, and when it lacks both, it's just a cool old "shooter grade" relic.

It is almost surely NOT worth being restored, if by worth we mean dollar value. In a case like this, whatever it would cost for a professional restoration would not be recouped by a later sale... because it would no longer be original.

Thank you for the in depth explanation, much appreciated!

Originally Posted by raljr1

I agree with Jack, probably no more than $300. Restoring it would probably end up costing you $500, and you'd have a $400 or $500 gun, but it might look nicer. Some folks would simply polish it and leave it as it cleans up. If you were to request a letter of authenticity form the historical society, and it turns out it was delivered directly to a specific person of fame or notoriety, the value would increase. But you'd have to invest $100 for the letter and most likely find out it shipped to Mel's Hardware or some such place.

Seriously considering getting its history even it turns out to be nothing, since I have another I need to request as well. Fingers crossed!

Originally Posted by A10

Restored guns are basically refinished guns, and that seriously affects value. As previously stated, oil and a good rag are about all you should do at this point.
The real interest is in its previous owner. If he was indeed an FBI agent and it can be attributed to him, details on him and his career can increase the value of the gun. Collectors love that stuff! Actual documentation (statements from his wife or children, assigned work areas, etc.) can be important.
Regardless of any value increase, hunting the information down can be fascinating! Enjoy your new piece of history!
Cool gun btw...

As for the agent, I know it was not issued to him (obviously ) but he was an avid collector and armor so there was *some* reason he bought this...

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Welcome to the forums from the peanut and cotton covered plains of the Wiregrass! The problem with nickel plated guns is they look worse than a blued gun with equivalent wear. There are a couple of ways to make it look better without refinishing the plating.

Blue Wonder Gun Bore Cleaner will remove the rust and clean the bore without damaging the finish. A gun this old will likely have some bore corrosion and that needs to be arrested. There may also be residual lead or copper in the bore grooves that it will remove. But, before cleaning with Blue Wonder, I would immerse the gun, sans grips, for about a week in a 50-50 mixture of auto transmission fluid and acetone in a chemical resistant and sealable container so the acetone doesn't evaporate. After soaking it, remove and spray it down with aerosol carb/parts/brake cleaner. Flush the cleaner into the action through the hammer or trigger opening until the effluent runs clear. The cleaner will evaporate and then you can clean the rusty areas with Blue Wonder Cleaner. When you are down to bare metal where the plating is gone, polish the entire gun with Mother's Mag polish until the bare spots blend with the plated and it will look as good as you can make it. Then, you can either coat it with Renaissance Wax or a good quality, clear carnauba floor wax. OR, just keep the outside coated with a light film of gun oil.

Or, you can use Naval Jelly to remove the rust after soaking it in the mixture and following procedure I mentioned before. Polish and wax and you're good to go.

I hope you can get it looking good since it seems to be in pretty nice condition for being 100+.


Edit: Uh. After cleaning, you need to lightly lubricate the action, and parts that move like the yoke bolt and center pin.

Sounds like a process I could handle. However, would this in essence be 'refinishing' and take away any remaining value? Or am I just better off treating it as is and leaving it alone?
Side note, this firearm was probably found in North AL as that's where I acquired it - and Im originally from

Originally Posted by DWalt

Most everything said is correct. Refinishing is not advisable, as all you accomplish is to spend a lot of money to remove value. An ordinary Model of 1905 in that condition is common and is nothing but a shooter, unless there is some authoritative documentation linking it to a famous person or historical event (that is a high hurdle). The closest serial number to yours I have listed is 137808, which shipped in March 1910. FWIW, a Model of 1905 is a K-frame Smith and Wesson revolver having a square butt made during the time period of approximately 1905 to 1915. After that, S&W designated it as simply the ".38 Military and Police" model. It was also made by S&W in another caliber, the .32-20. Those chambered in .32-20 are somewhat less common than revolvers like yours which is chambered in .38 S&W Special. However, yours will continue to serve its original purpose as long as it receives some care and respect. Having its original grips is a positive feature - most wood grips from that time have disappeared or are in poor condition. Take good care of them.

Regarding the FBI, there may be little or no connection of that revolver with it. The FBI in anything resembling its present form did not exist until the mid-1930s, 20-25 years after your revolver was made. That does not preclude its being used at a later time by an FBI agent, but that is not too likely. It could just as easily have been a gun taken from some criminal.

'Taken from a criminal'... I do know that is not the case, I have had the serial run thru NCIC.

[Wiregrassguy]

However, would this in essence be 'refinishing' and take away any remaining value? Or am I just better off treating it as is and leaving it alone?

No. Cleaning it up and removing the rust is not refinishing. And it's good to see a Bama Girl on here! Hang around with us!

[first-model]

Originally Posted by Cuffs-Merritt

Sounds like a process I could handle. However, would this in essence be 'refinishing' and take away any remaining value? Or am I just better off treating it as is and leaving it alone?

It's a mild refinish. And I wouldn't do it. I know that some people really like polished guns; I cringe when I see well-used guns that are polished. With a new-in-box gun a high polish looks great, but this gun has far too much wear and tear to cover up. The end product will have that "melted in the microwave" look that makes these revolvers look terrible—and that's irreversible damage.

A few pulls of a bore swab and brush, and a good wipe down with an oily rag is going to preserve all of the original finish—and all of the wear and tear, which is an honest representation of this gun's use.

It's a really nice example of an early M&P. Enjoy it and preserve it as 115+ year old survivor!

Mike

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Cuffs-Merritt

Thank you for the in depth explanation, much appreciated!



Seriously considering getting its history even it turns out to be nothing, since I have another I need to request as well. Fingers crossed!



As for the agent, I know it was not issued to him (obviously ) but he was an avid collector and armor so there was *some* reason he bought this...



Sounds like a process I could handle. However, would this in essence be 'refinishing' and take away any remaining value? Or am I just better off treating it as is and leaving it alone?
Side note, this firearm was probably found in North AL as that's where I acquired it - and Im originally from



'Taken from a criminal'... I do know that is not the case, I have had the serial run thru NCIC.



I am not a Collector of Things. If I get some positive feedback on its history (or not) and I decide to give it a better life than I can give it, how or where can I go about that? Not wanting to go the Local Pawn shop route...

In years gone by, it was not uncommon for peace officers to be given or awarded firearms taken from criminals after an arrest was made.

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

In years gone by, it was not uncommon for peace officers to be given or awarded firearms taken from criminals after an arrest was made.

Correct. Ive already been through dealing with a few of those. Let's just say it was 'interesting' when explaining how I came into possession of one that was clearly used like a hammer and the SN was ground off...

[DWalt]

Back in my old Ohio home town of long ago, one of the local PD detectives had accumulated a sizable collection of seized evidence guns after they had been used in court. He lived next door to my grandparents and I saw them. Things were much different then. I am sure there was no NCIC at the time.

[A10]

I hope your dad is still around. I miss mine every day. He's the reason I got into law enforcement. There was a reason the WSP was called "State Patrol and Son"! Many of my fellow officers kids went to work for the department as well. Can't say I'd recommend it these days though...

[BC38]

As others have said, because it is such a common model example with poor finish condition, restoration probably isn't a worthwhile proposition.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean she can't be prettied up A LOT for minimal cost with just a bit of effort.

If you want to go to the trouble to disassemble it, give it a good cleaning with TSP, and then a good buff job with a felt wheel in a Dremel tool and some Mother's mag polish you can make it look about 10x better. Afterwards a light coat of wax will keep it shiny.

Here's an example of one I cleaned up that way. Even with it in your hand you have to look REALLY hard to tell where the original nickel ends and the polished steel begins.

[Shotguncoach]

There is a huge difference between resale value and personal value. I have some guns in my collection that have no true resale value other than as a collection of parts, but to me they are more valuable than any of the others simply because they belonged to my Dad. I saw your statement about not being a collector of things....in this case, the memories attached to the thing may be more important than the thing itself.

If you do decide to give it a new home there are several of us on the forum from Arizona that can help with ways to legally transfer it that are better than the local pawn shop.

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by A10

I hope your dad is still around. I miss mine every day. He's the reason I got into law enforcement. There was a reason the WSP was called "State Patrol and Son"! Many of my fellow officers kids went to work for the department as well. Can't say I'd recommend it these days though...

Sadly, no... That's how I came in possession of all his 'stuff.' He dearly wanted me to follow him an be an agent, but my heart was set on regular patrol work. Ive since retired and miss it dearly. But IM in total agreement that I would not do that job today.

My only regret... since retirement, Ive been involved with the National Park Service. I was NOT told that I could have been assigned a horse, backpack and the keys to a remote cabin high in the mountains and 'patrolled' out there.

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by BC38

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean she can't be prettied up A LOT for minimal cost with just a bit of effort.

If you wan to disassemble it, give it a good cleaning with TSP, and then a good buff job with a felt wheel in a Dremel tool and some mother's mag polish you can make it look about 10x better. Afterwards a light coat of wax will keep it shiny.

I dig it, thanks for sharing and getting me motivated to work on it!

[Cuffs-Merritt]

Originally Posted by Shotguncoach

There is a huge difference between resale value and personal value. I have some guns in my collection that have no true resale value other than as a collection of parts, but to me they are more valuable than any of the others simply because they belonged to my Dad. I saw your statement about not being a collector of things....in this case, the memories attached to the thing may be more important than the thing itself.

If you do decide to give it a new home there are several of us on the forum from Arizona that can help with ways to legally transfer it that are better than the local pawn shop.

Agreed with the valuation differences. However, I dont recall seeing Dad use this, or even talk about it, so I dont know why he thought it worthy of purchasing.

Seen too many hoarding cases (including close family...) that we dont keep much but essentials and small mementos. When you lose everything to a wildfire, you learn just how much (or little) things really mean to you. You grab the living things and maybe some important documents and you get out.

[BC38]

Originally Posted by Cuffs-Merritt

I dig it, thanks for sharing and getting me motivated to work on it!

Glad to help. The thing I like about this clean & polish approach is since it isn't a refinish, there is no real negative impact on value or originality. At least as far as I'm concerned. I don't think anybody "values" corrosion - not even as "original patina", and all the polishing with a felt wheel does is remove the corrosion and polish up the steel where the nickel is missing.

[first-model]

Originally Posted by BC38

The thing I like about this clean & polish approach is since it isn't a refinish ...

I respectfully disagree.

Polishing is an abrasive action. It permanently removes metal from the gun. It's not as harsh of a refinish as, say, a full replating job, but it still irreversibly alters the gun's finish.

I may be in the minority, but I hands-down prefer the "pre-polish" look. That patina takes ages of honest use to develop, and it can't be faked.

Mike

[BC38]

Originally Posted by first-model

I respectfully disagree.

Polishing is an abrasive action. It permanently removes metal from the gun. It's not as harsh of a refinish as, say, a full replating job, but it still irreversibly alters the gun's finish.

I may be in the minority, but I hands-down prefer the "pre-polish" look. That patina takes ages of honest use to develop, and it can't be faked.

Mike

So then you are saying that as you browse the local gun show, you would actually pay more for a corroded and rusted antique S&W sitting on someone's table, than you would for one that has already had the rust and corrosion removed and neutralized?

Interesting perspective. I don't know for sure, but I think that you may be correct in assuming that you are in the minority.

FWIW, if I had to choose between two revolvers that look like the before and after pictures I posted, if the price were the same for both, I would definitely choose the cleaned up and polished example.

But maybe I'm just not enough of an informed "purist". YMMV....

[first-model]

Originally Posted by BC38

So then you are saying that as you browse the local gun show, you would actually pay more for a corroded and rusted antique S&W sitting on someone's table, than you would for one that has already had the rust and corrosion removed and neutralized?

You're exaggerating my argument and turning this into a subtle ad hominem attack with the "purist" dig. No bueno.

Since you asked, here's a more accurate summary of my position:

I pass over most guns that have been mechanically buffed/polished/refinished. There are exceptions to every rule, and I have a few guns in my collection that were cosmetically altered at some point. Those I bought because of their unusual configuration or unique shipping location, and in every case the cosmetic alterations helped me negotiate a lower buying price. But OP's gun isn't unique; it's a garden-variety .38 M&P in a standard factory configuration. It's a revolver that I'd be happy to add to my collection, but it'd have to be in exactly the condition that it's in now.

No, I wouldn't pay more for a "corroded and rusted antique" gun—but it'd at least be a contender for purchase. The price I expect to pay would be commensurate with its condition. And let's be clear: OP's gun isn't "corroded and rusted." What I see is plenty of original factory nickel and the usual patina of wear that one would expect on a century-old gun that saw regular use. A light oiling is all that's necessary to stabilize the exposed steel, and in proper storage it'll maintain that patina (and hold its value) indefinitely.

Pictured below is one of the roughest guns in my collection. It's a .38 M&P Model of 1902 that I paid $150 for a few years ago. It ranks in the top 3 "popular guns" on my social media channels. Last year it made an appearance on national television. All of that is true because it's authentic. It shipped to a New Orleans hardware dealer in 1903 and was then used by lumbermen in the bayou for almost half a century, and it looks every bit the part.

Some people pay a lot of money for an artificial battle worn finish on their gun. I paid much less and got the real thing.

What you call a "purist," I call being a thoughtful buyer and a careful custodian. This isn't blind adherence to some religious tenet: it's the accumulated experience of a lifetime of collecting, and the lessons learned from a lot of mistakes made along the way.

Mike

[BC38]

Originally Posted by first-model

You're exaggerating my argument and turning this into a subtle ad hominem attack with the "purist" dig. No bueno.

My apologies, but I think you are misinterpreting my comments.

No "attack" or other offense was intended. My real point would probably be best summarized with the following question:

"Which of the two revolvers pictured below do you think most people would choose - if they were the same price?" Or maybe "Which of the two revolvers pictured below would you rather own?"

Of course in this case they are both pictures of the same revolver - the before and after photos of the one I cleaned up and posted about.

Originally Posted by first-model

Since you asked, here's a more accurate summary of my position:

I pass over most guns that have been mechanically buffed/polished/refinished. There are exceptions to every rule, and I have a few guns in my collection that were cosmetically altered at some point. Those I bought because of their unusual configuration or unique shipping location, and in every case the cosmetic alterations helped me negotiate a lower buying price. But OP's gun isn't unique; it's a garden-variety .38 M&P in a standard factory configuration. It's a revolver that I'd be happy to add to my collection, but it'd have to be in exactly the condition that it's in now.

No, I wouldn't pay more for a "corroded and rusted antique" gun—but it'd at least be a contender for purchase. The price I expect to pay would be commensurate with its condition. And let's be clear: OP's gun isn't "corroded and rusted." What I see is plenty of original factory nickel and the usual patina of wear that one would expect on a century-old gun that saw regular use. A light oiling is all that's necessary to stabilize the exposed steel, and in proper storage it'll maintain that patina (and hold its value) indefinitely...

Totally valid - and good advise if the OP were looking to buy the gun in question, or even to increase its resale value. But as I read it, that doesn't seem to be her question.

Originally Posted by first-model

...What you call a "purist," I call being a thoughtful buyer and a careful custodian. This isn't blind adherence to some religious tenet: it's the accumulated experience of a lifetime of collecting, and the lessons learned from a lot of mistakes made along the way.

Mike

All well and good Mike - no argument with any of that - from a collector or buyer's perspective (hence my "purist" comment).

However, in light of the OP's question about "restoring" a gun she inherited from her father - one that she just wants to make look more presentable - the collector perspective seems like a moot point to me. It isn't for sale or one she is considering buying, so the "I wouldn't buy it if it were polished up" perspective doesn't apply, IMO.

There is a spectrum of "refinishing" for old guns like this.

There is the purist collector who says "Don't do anything to the original finish no matter what" (your perspective) at one end of the spectrum, and then there's the "It's OK to completely remove and restore the original finish" folks at the other end of that spectrum.

The perspective I was proposing is somewhere between those two extremes. I was giving an answer specifically for a common gun of nominal value that the OP already owns and has no interest in reselling.

The black patches where the original nickel is missing are corrosion. You can call that "patina" if you like, but I see it differently. IMO they are no different than patches of surface rust on a blued gun. If they weren't corroded then they would already be shiny steel instead of being BLACK. Again, that is just MY perspective and it is obviously different from that of more "purist" collectors like yourself.

That's OK. Your perspective doesn't offend me, and mine shouldn't offend you. The OP can choose which approach suits her best. I think that is probably why she came here to ask her question - to get different perspectives and opinions so she can choose between different options and do what makes the most sense for her.

Again, no insult or offense intended.

[first-model]

Originally Posted by BC38

"Which of the two revolvers pictured below do you think most people would choose - if they were the same price?" Or maybe "Which of the two revolvers pictured below would you rather own?"

I'd choose the unrestored one, hands down. The buffing and polishing would be a dealbreaker for me.

I have no idea what "most people" would choose. Some would probably agree with me. Some would choose the cleaned gun. Some would walk past it because they're not into M&Ps. Etcetera.

Back in the 1970s and into the early 1980s, restoration (and over-restoration) was a popular "thing." Many of those guns haven't aged particularly well, and the trend I'm seeing now is towards "preservation class." This isn't just with guns; I see it across a spectrum of collectibles. To wit: there's a reason that professional coin grading services like NGC and PCGS will note "cleaned" when they see evidence of abrasive cleaning. "Cleaned" in that context is just a euphemism for "willfully damaged," and it never helps the price. In antique car collecting, "preservation class" cars are fetching some pretty breathtaking numbers, and that's giving a lot of auto restorers second thoughts about whether to restore these cars or leave them alone.

Originally Posted by BC38

However, in light of the OP's question about "restoring" a gun she inherited from her father - one that she just wants to make look more presentable - the collector perspective seems like a moot point to me. It isn't for sale or one she is considering buying, so the "I wouldn't buy it if it were polished up" perspective doesn't apply, IMO.

I disagree about it not applying.

And to be fair: I think it's entirely natural for people to wonder about restoring an antique. When I inherited my g-grandparents' silver flatware, one of the first things I did was to polish it up. It's entirely normal to think about things like this—to want to make them look pretty.

Most people don't think of the other side of this: the curatorial aspects of caring for a piece of history that is (in this case) over a century old. And I completely understand that as well, since most people don't have a background in archival or museum sciences.

But for all of the subjectivity here (and indeed, aesthetics is largely a subjective question), there is an objective fact that can't be refuted: buffing, polishing, and any other "restoration" technique that involves the use of abrasives alters the gun irreversibly. The material lost can never practicably be reapplied. Once it's gone, it's gone forever.

So you're correct that there's a "spectrum of refinishing" for old guns like this, but what we're really talking about is how much damage should be inflicted to create a certain (artificial, IMHO) aesthetic. You argue that a certain degree is acceptable, and that it might even create value. I argue that it isn't—that all of this is just damaging a gun for the sake of vanity, and that it ultimately lowers the value of the gun.

Insomuch as this all applies to the OP: I'd offer her the same advice I offer everyone else, which is that it's her gun and she should do with it as she pleases—but to at least have good quality information with which to make an education decision.

Originally Posted by BC38

The black patches where the original nickel is missing are corrosion. You can call that "patina" if you like, but I see it differently. IMO they are no different than patches of surface rust on a blued gun.

It's interesting that you see restoration as a spectrum, but you see corrosion as binary. I see it the other way around.

A blued finish is corrosion—just a controlled, chemically applied layer of corrosion that protects the underlying material. The patina on this gun is a natural variant of exactly the same thing—which is the difference between patina and the more colloquial meaning of "rusted." Just as one would oil a blued gun to maintain that surface, so too should the exposed steel parts of this gun be given a light coating of oil periodically to preserve them.

As it sits, though, this gun is probably pretty stable. This isn't a situation of malignant rust that's going to reduce it to a pile of iron oxide dust in short order. Left untouched, I suspect this gun would look much the same in a century as it does now as long as it's stored in a dry environment.

As I mentioned before, I see enormous beauty in a nickel gun like this that has wear patterns consistent with a lot of duty use. It's the inevitability of having spent years (decades?) in a leather holster, having been handled and shot regularly, etc. For me, gun collecting is as much about the guns themselves as it is about the human stories that they have to tell. That's why I prefer to leave them as they are, and to make sure that whoever they get passed on to will get to enjoy them in a well-preserved state.

Mike

[mikepriwer]

BC38

Nice job of cleaning up that revolver. It looks really good.

I notice that the front extractor rod locking pin is sticking out too far, which suggests (to me) that it is not seating itself. Usually that indicates a slightly bent extractor rod, or possibly the barrel is not set true.

Regards, Mike Priwer

[Sevens]

Post #34 is completely eloquent, I cannot imagine a case being presented any better. Attempting to get any last word that refutes this post seems wholly counterproductive to the mission of this forum.