Please feel free to post your post-war or (pre-war) Reg Police models.
Let's see what kind of variety we get.


While I have one of each, I thought I would show you a Transition 32 and 38 Regulation Police.

They are basically like pre-war guns with a few notable differences.

Transition 32 Reg Police, 3-1/4 inch. The grips on this gun are not numbered and I find that curious.-





Both have the straight ejector rod-




Grips and barrels on both guns lack patenet dates-







Both guns are coil spring guns and lack the strain screw in the frontstrap.
Both guns have the stepped backstrap on a round butt frame with the extension square butt stocks-





Both guns have the post-war thumb latch that is not undercut.
The hammers and triggers lack the "US Pat Off" which was dropped during WW II-




Both of these guns have the 4 line address, placing them in 48 or after -




Both guns have the Safety Hammer Block-



38 Regulation Police #68415-
4 inch.
The grips on this gun are numbered to it-




Note that the barrel lacks the "Regulation Police" marking above the caliber seen on pre-war 38 RP's.
Oddly, the 32 RP never had that marking even in the pre-war period-



This is probably how most or all of these models will look from 48 to 53 or 54 when the more
modern frames having oval trigger guards and longer gripframes with true square butts take over.
Before 48, expect to find varying combinations of pre-war and post-war features as pre-war parts were used up!

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thank you for the preview of coming attractions. I have .38 RP 58470 coming to me within the next few days. It was the B gun in an A-B double pack at the Poulin auction earlier this month. Roy gave me a July 1951 date on that number.

Every time I think I have learned when the coil spring first appeared, something pops up to make me realize I haven't got it yet. Back to the books...

__________________
David Wilson

Lee,
You are a great teacher! I thought you had lost that skill with all those PLFs you did on landing!hahaha
Bill

__________________
38-44heavyduty.com

Please post your post-war or (pre-war) Reg Police models. Let's see what kind of variety we get.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

.38 Reg Pol. 4", non-medallion stocks pencil numbered to gun and patent date on bottom, Round butt and stepped cut to fit Sq butt stocks, S/N 2786X and numbered on cylinder and barrel flat also, shipped Dec. 1925. Is is near new condition "Except" for the half doz. ugly rust spots where it had gotten wet and put away sometime in it's past. Anyway it is a good shooter.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Lee, 2 very nice examples of what I refer to as post war I frame 1st improvements. Of course the obvious characteristic being the lack of leaf spring/strain screw as you indicated. I further categorize them as mid-transition post war models for the following reasons:

1. they have the 2nd style post war semi-sculpted thumblatch which preceeded the flat latch. The 1st types having more similar sculpturing to the pre war but without the relief of the pre-war behind the checkered pad.

2. they still have 1/2 penny front sights which were changed to ramp front sights with 1st use of the 2nd type flat latch (1st type flat latch not used on 32s and 38s to my knowledge, but I never say never) which I refer to as the last transition model just before the 1953 I frame 2nd improvement.

Here's a photo showing the progression; sorry for such small pictures.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

I've added some text to go along with the guns in photos.

************The Post War I Frame Evolution: .22/32 Kits and Targets, .32 Hand Ejectors, .32 & .38 Reg Police and .38 Terriers**************

Typos, exclusions or whatever one calls them exist in the SCSW and particularly differentiating between the I frame Improved and the Model of 1953 I frame which are actually a new model. Don’t get me wrong it's a most excellent reference and probably the best in existence. But the intriguing and confusing evolution of these post war/1950s 'I' frames surpasses any of the other Smith frame sizes of the period.
Therefore, here is an outline to fill in the gaps in the book assembled to help put them in context with serial number breaks as much as we forum members have been able to document so far:


THE POST WAR I FRAMES EVOLUTION: .22/32 Kit Gun and Target, .32 Hand Ejector, .32 & .38 S&W Reg. Police and .38 S&W Terrier:

1. Transitional I frames c. 1946, leaf main spring w/tension screw on forestrap: These are "5 screw" models, 6 screws in total counting the tension screw: round sight, small trigger guard and short rd grip frame or rebated frame w/sq butt stocks, (all reportedly have new style hammer block). .22/32s and .32s beginning as low as 5346XX (Two in 521XXX range recorded as shipped in 1948 and 9/49, probably do not have the new style rebound slide operated hammer block reportedly begun at # 536,685), #544030 lowest observed; .38 S&W beginning c. 1948 at # 54475; as high as 582XX w/rd top stocks.

---- a) Pre war/post war Transitional: uses many pre war parts. (includes the non-Model #’d 1957 issue .32 Regulation Police Targets in the low #657XXX range).

---- b) Pure post war Transitional: uses new post war parts. No .22/32s, .32s (up to #550740 highest # known). A few small guns were sold in the late '40s mostly made up from prewar parts. Actual .38 S&W production in volume didn't resume until about 1950, 54804 lowest and 58470 highest known shipped in July 1951.

2. "Improved I frames" w/coil main spring: "5 screw" model, (the tension, 6th screw eliminated), otherwise same features as the above Transitionals. Exception: late issues have ramp front sight and barrel rib. These are not pre models. No .22/32s, .32s (beginning at #554536, lowest # known shipped 12/51, #611398 highest known), .38s (highest round sight 70XXX [#68,XXX 2/53], lowest known ramp site 70131, 71983 highest, shipped Jan. 12, 1954).

3. Model of 1953 New I Frames, (the true “Pre-Model #” guns), coil mainspring: These are "4 screw" & "3 screw" models, larger trigger guard (no screw, longer rd butt grip frame and new style sq butt. Bright blue finishes begin to appear and eventually predominate. .22/32s (beginning in new serial range starting w/#101), .32s (beginning at about #613XXX), .38s (a 4 screw, old hammer #7671X).

4. Model #’d guns c.1957, otherwise identical to the Mod of 1953: 22/32 I frames Models 34 & 35 (beginning c. #37XXX), replaced by J frames Oct. 1960, -1 added (c. #70,XXX), the .32s and .38s in early 1961, -1 added (.32s Models 30 & 31 beginning c. #650XXX to #712954, highest # known, and .38s Models 32 & 33, c. #88XXX).


The 1st photo below shows .32s only but will serve to illustrate the above categories for all calibers except as noted.

Top left, Reference only: Pre war .32 HE Mod 1903-5th change, #205628, mid 1914, 3 1/4", 'I' frame, factory pearl grips with gold medallions. Note the pre c. 1928 distinctive “mushroom” extractor knob.


1.Transitional: .22/32 Kit Gun (and Targets if any made) Rd Butt or Rebated Sq Butt, .32 Hand Ejector Rd Butt, .32 & .38 Reg. Police Rebated Sq Butt (see .38 R. P. Rd Butt exception below) and .38 Terrier Rd Butt:

a) Pre war/post war: (second gun on left. Reg. Police shown). Very similar to pre war I frames: leaf mainspring, short grip frame, round ½ penny front sight, smooth trigger (except Kit Guns use ½ round USRA ‘pocket sight’ and grooved triggers), with improved hammer block safety (the post war telltale feature) but pre war shaped hammer (there was no change from long to short throw hammers on I frames), matte finish, single line “Made In U.S.A.” only (no Marcas Registradas or address on right side frame until 1948). A small S&W logo on the left side of the frame is pretty much standard. 2”, 3 1/4” & 4 1/4” barrels (4” on .38s, and 6” targets are reported), with patent dates on barrel. Kit Gun .22/32s with 4” barrel only, (Target .22/32s with 6” barrel have been reported). All models continue in their respective pre war serial number ranges: which is the same for .22/32s and .32s but a separate range for .38 S&Ws. Two inch barrels on .32s and .38s can have a unique two line roll mark on the left side of the barrel with the SMITH & WESSON line centered with the caliber line centered below it. These early .22/32s and .32s still have the smaller (than 38 S&W) pre war cylinder diameter and frame window. Serial numbers in 6 places including stamped backside of the right stock; 9 places including front sight, rear sight and rear sight blade for the 22/32 Kit Guns same as on pre-war guns, use pre war target sights, and pre war style round firing pin with one proud retaining pin.

.32 and .38 S&W Regulation Police Models have rebated square butt stocks w/ serial number stamped on front grip strap above the strain screw, except for the uncommon .38 S&W 4” rd butt version, examples of which have ‘lettered’ as RPs. The same configured .32 guns have been observed but .32 Reg. Police Models are not stamped as such on the barrel like .38/32 S&W RP guns. Square butt 2” .38 Terriers have also been observed.
22/32 Kit Guns have grooved triggers, pre war target sights, serial number in eight places including the front and rear sight, Pre war style round firing pin with one proud retaining pin, and round or sq butt rebated stocks.

Can have from all to some of the following pre war details: pre war thumb piece – ‘double hourglass’ with relief cuts under the checkered pad (but can also have Type 1 post war ‘double hourglass’ thumb piece similar to pre war thumb piece but without relief cuts under the checkered pad, just as on the K and N frame sizes), service (round top) stocks or ‘Mini’ Magna stocks (.22/32s & .32s reportedly beginning w/# 557,871; .38s at # 62,381, both on 7/9/51), checkering 16 cut lines per inch (15 rows of diamonds), sharp cornered border (shown), flat chrome plated brass or curved nickel plated brass medallions, large pre war ‘barrel shaped’ extractor knob with right or left hand thread (see note below).

This group includes the 1957 issue .32 Reg. Police Target 'I' frame, a 1957 release non-Model #’d with small trigger guard and leaf mainspring (pre Improved 'I' frame), (Shown 3rd from top on right), 196 made on left over pre war 'I' frames. This model still has the smaller pre war cylinder diameter and frame window.
Frame serial# stamped on front grip strap above the strain screw matching all other #'d parts inc. stocks and sights, 9 locations in all, (in low #657XXX range). 4" barrel, pre war/early postwar rebated rear grip strap with post war type 16 lpi checkering, round cornered border on round top stocks with curved nickel plated brass medallions. You'll notice pre war sights w/special modified post war sight adjusting tool (SAT) to fit tiny sight screws, short action, pre war/early post war hammer, post war grooved trigger, and 3rd type post war (and post 1966 after becoming J frames) non-sculpted thumbpiece while all other I frames of the period still had the third type flat latch. Most features totally out of character with non-target pre Model 31 guns of the 1957 period! But it has the 3rd and last style straight ejector knob (left hand thread), no patent dates on barrel and 4 line address. A very convoluted transition model for sure. Brief details of these 196 guns are on page 128, 3rd edition, Standard Catalog of S&W, Supica and Nahas, pictured pg 127.


b) Pure post war: (third gun on left. 2”, .32 Hand Ejector shown). Similar to above except, no patent dates on barrel, “Made In U.S.A.” with “Marcas Registradas” and address on right side frame (four lines). Usually have straight extractor (left hand thread), ‘Mini’ Magna stocks on round butt guns (.32 at # 557,871, .38 S&W #62,381 both on 7/9/51) with post war curved nickel plated medallions and the pre war checkering of 16 cut lines per inch (15 rows of diamonds) replaced with 13 LPI (12 rows of diamonds) and round cornered borders. Yes that differs from the SCSW by Nahas and Supica but the book conflicts with actual measurements, in fact the earliest triple locks have 17 LPI (16 rows of diamonds). and grooved trigger. Type 2 postwar single hourglass thumb piece or Type 3 non hourglass (pre flat latch) exactly like post ’66 style. Prewar/early postwar hammer. Barrels are still 2”, 3 ¼” and 4 1/4”. The plastic or steel grip medallions usually show up in these early '50s guns, due to the Korean war brass shortage.


2. Improved I: Improved 'I' frame (coil mainspring but still short RB grip, still 5 screw):

(top right gun. 3” .32 HE shown). Otherwise same as above. Can have round front sight and thumb latches as above; later models will have 2nd type flatlatch and serrated ramp front sight w/barrel rib and standardized barrel lengths of 2”, 3” & 4”. I have not observed the 1st type flat latch as used on the Baby J frames, used on I frames (shown on right in second photo below), but doesn’t mean they don’t exist! The .32s begin to show up with the larger cylinder diameter and frame window of the .38 S&W. Very early ‘50s production may have plastic or steel stock medallions.


3. Model of 1953 NEW I Frames; the ‘pre-models’ 4 screw and 3 screw models:

(Second gun on right. 3”.32 Reg. Police), 4 screws, coil mainspring, new larger egg shaped trigger guard, 1/8” longer round butt frame (same as the current J frame .38 Spl. Chiefs Special) and new, current style square butt grip frame and stocks 5/32” longer than the rd butt (1st introduced in 1952 on the ‘Baby J frame’); 14 LPI (13 rows of diamonds); 2”, 3” & 4” barrels, 6” on .22/32 Target; early post war style hammer continued on earliest 1953 models (except 22 /32 which has the new target hammer), but soon changed to the new style, coarse knurled hammer; 2nd style flat latch then 3rd/last style 'tall' flat latch used on all Model 1953 'I' frames (and the J frame .38 Spl Chiefs Special, and .22, .32 and .38 S&W ‘I’ & 'J' frames) after c. 1958 thru c. 1966. Bright blue finishes begin to appear and eventually predominate. Three screw frame models are the same as above except the upper sideplate screw (4th screw) was eliminated beginning late 1955 (c. serial # 640980 on .32s). Early c. 1956, serial # locations gradually decreased from 6 to less locations until eventually just on butt of grip frame, back of extractor star (until late ‘60’s), and back of right stock.

This is the first post war model change for the 22/32 guns and a separate serial number range was begun at # 101; as above except new style .375” wide target hammer, micro click rear target sight, new rectangular shaped firing pin tip with two proud retaining pins introduced, 2” or 4” Kit Guns, J frame size Rd or Sq butt (Round Butt shown in second photo below on top left) and 6” Targets, Sq butt only. I have observed that on the .22/32, the 'bright' blue finishes began in their serial # range around the early to mid 20,000s c. '54 - '55 as well as the flat polishing of the second (rear most) retaining pin for the firing pin. Also by this time .22/32s begin to show up with the larger cylinder diameter and frame window of the .38 S&W.

The 22/32 kit and target guns transitioned to 3 screw sideplates in their 13,000 to 23,000 serial # range. Later, serial # locations gradually decreased from 6 to less locations (beginning as early as # 23000 range on 22/32s) until eventually just on butt of grip frame, back of extractor star (until late ‘60’s), and back of right stock. The round tip firing pin w/two retaining pins returned in the 29,000 serial number range. I believe the one proud retaining pin was reintroduced Oct. 1960 when .22 I frames were replaced with the J frame and a dash 1 was added to their model numbers. In the later Model of 1953 I frame production period an optional .400” grooved target trigger was offered and after the end of the Diamond stock period c. 1968, target stocks that fit both the round and square butt frames were introduced (shown in second photo).


4. 1957 Model #’d guns:

All models were ordered to have their respective model numbers stamped in the yoke c. 1957.

M30 = .32 HE, M31* = .32 RP, M32 = .38 Terrier, M33 = .38 RP up to c.1961 (.32 and .38 I frames converted to J frames). *Late production could be had w/rd or sq butt after 1976 when Mod 30 ceased, until 1991 when discontinued.)

M34 = .22/32Kit Gun, M35 = .22/32 Target up to Oct. 1960 (.22 I frames converted to J frames).

NOTES:
1) Many wonder what the little iron cross like marks are at the beginning and end of the cartridge roll mark on the barrel. They are a common typographical ornamentation called a “dingbat” used as a guide called "feet" to begin and end the barrel rollmarking and keep it straight, from back in the day. For example: they show up on pre war I frames in 32 and 38 and appear on early 22/32s then show up again after WW II. The little M frame .22 has them on both ends of the cartridge roll stamp. Triple locks and other models have them atop the barrel on both ends of the address and patent dates, etc.

Photo in post #4 here: 32 LONG CTG HELP ID.
IRON CROSS dingbat shown here: http://thinkdesignblog.com/typograph...gbat-fonts.htm

2) There has not been any pre war or post war .38 S&W Target models observed to date but 6” is reported.

3) A change in the early 1960’s was the hammer to spring strut junction from ball/socket to the fork/pin.

4) The post war I frames were changed to left hand threads on straight extractor rods soon after the commencement of production following WW II, therefore their spawn, the 1950 introduced J frame Chiefs Special, began life with left hand threads on straight extractor rods.

Just for the record however, and not affecting J frames; I must acknowledge that early post war I frames were produced with right hand threads and these are identifiable by the pre war 'barrel' style extractor rod knob,
BUT: a very scarce few 'late', early post war I frames with the "barrel" knob have been observed with left hand threads! Again this is irrelevant to J frames.
To summarize: on the post war I and J frames; all straight extractor rods are left hand thread, but on the I frames not every "barrel" type extractor rod is right hand thread! As usual with Smiths, the I frame extractor rod changes were subject to a transition period of a couple of years.

5) All fixed sight I models have smooth triggers before the war which continued on the earliest post war transitional but were changed to grooved during the pre war/post war models and preceding the Improved Model.
6) The front trigger guard screw was eliminated when this model received the egg shaped trigger guard change, referred to as the Model of 1953 which also included the change to the J frame length grip on the I and J frame (38 Spl). Suffice it to say that there are no 5 screw Models of 1953, notwithstanding an Airweight J frame with a lock screw on the upper sideplate screw.
7) Before c. 1953 model, I and J frames had rounder trigger guards with the front (5th) screw and I frame length (short) grip frames and were all '5 screw models'. After c. 1953, the I and J frames were all ‘4 screw models' both had egg shaped trigger guards and J frame length grips. After Oct. 1960, 22/32 I frames and 1961 for .32 and .38 I frames, all were changed to J frames and a -1 was added to the model number.
These are only my observations and I appreciate anyone else's observations to add to the data base.

8) Pre models:
For the benefit of others to make up their own minds to be precise or to be confusing:
a pre model number described gun is just that, it's not a name, it's an accurate description to distinguish between the "Model .38 Chiefs Special Airweight" that DOES NOT look like the model numbered guns and the models of 1953 "Model .38 Chiefs Special AW" " that DOES look like the model numbered version. It's a useful description to avoid confusion and to be precise when discussing Models that have the same name but different features which is very common.

9) Checkering:
Triple Locks 17 LPI (16 rows of diamonds)
HFT pre and post 1920s inc. Kit Guns 16 LPI (15 rows of diamonds)
Early post war I frames 13 LPI (12 rows of diamonds)
1953 Kit Gun 14 LPI (13 rows of diamonds)

These are only my observations and I appreciate anyone else's observations to add to the data base.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim, is that a 4" or 4.25" barrel on the postwar RP Target? I have seen them described both ways.

This is one of the 196 units with serial numbers in the 657xxx range, right?

__________________
David Wilson

Here's mine.

Attached Images

	32 Reg Police Tgt 6572XX.JPG (84.2 KB, 138 views)
	32 Reg Police 2628XX.JPG (87.5 KB, 150 views)

__________________
Dave
SWCA #2465

Post war .32 Reg. Police Models - the 4 with square butts.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Hi David,

That is truly an impressive and interesting piece, not only for the condition but all the anomolies you mention. A true pre war/post war transition unimproved I frame.

Because it has a 'notched' pre war barrel, by necessity it also has a prewar ejector knob. This is not uncommon in other frame sizes but unusual in I frames. Even transition Kit Guns have the straight ejector. I'll bet anything that it has the pre war right hand thread as well. All straight post war I frame ejector rods after the war that I've observed already have left hand thread.

The cylinder release thumbpiece, however, is the late post war, third and last style which both immediately preceeded and followed the flatlatches. The early post war style retained the 'double hourglass' shape but without the pre war undercut checkered pad. The 2nd post war style retained the single hourglass shape in front of the screw but not behind it (as clearly shown in Lee's excellent photo of his .32 at the very beginning of this thread).

The stock panels are of the pre war 'service' style with round top shape but with the post war rounded corner checkering border. I can't tell for sure but I believe the grip emblems are the curved, post war style or are they flat silvers?

All in all a great collectible!

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim, thanks for your comments. I completely missed the point about the thumb latch distinctions from the earlier posts. I promise to study the question and not to post about thumb latches again until I understand them!

__________________
David Wilson

David,
Welcome to 'the club', I can't seem to catch all the nuances any more unless I study a gun for an hour trying to remember what to look for! Very frustrating. Do the grips on your gun have flat silvers or curved emblems?
Thx,

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

They seem to be curved, but this is another case where I haven't trained my eye to distinctions that others can see. I wouldn't call them flat, but they don't seem to be curved as much as on other, older I-frames I have.

__________________
David Wilson

I'm trying to make them out to be post war curved nickle but they look like silvers to me.

Nickle has a slightly yellow look and very shiny like chrome plate. The silvers look more white and not like chrome.

Oh yeah, I just remembered, they could be plastic! Very little shine to them, almost grey, and they would be curved. Used around the 1951 period also.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Excellent photos David,
Not to be contrary but I believe those are the post war standard curved, nickle plated brass medallions. The wood surface is curved and the left and right edges of the medallion actually dip below the surface of the wood.
The concentric rings appear to be machine tool marks from cleaning up the surface of the brass casting before nickel plating. I've observed those marks on some of my guns and they are not that uncommon.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Contrariness is welcome, particularly when I am struggling to understnd something for the first time. I still can't make my eyes see some of the medallion distinctions that I hear people draw (though I think I have the early deep-dish medallions pinned down ), so I appreciate the education.

Anyway, it makes sense to me that by 1951 any prewar medallion stocks would have been used up, and stocks would have been fitted with newer ornamentation just as the checking fields were edged with rounded rather than square corners.

__________________
David Wilson

It's a really great gun David! I've come to think of my Terrier as one of my favoritest favorites, a 3 1/4 incher would be.... well, just too cool.
Can't wait to see the letter??

Lee,

I have a 38 Regulation Police exactly like yours. Serial #69010 and it shipped April of 1953. The barrel just says 38 S&W CTG just like yours does. The grips have a different number then the gun. I thought that was funny since the whole package looked to be in great shape and I couldn't figure out why the grips would have a different number. I had the pistols lettered and Roy said in his letter that he wasn't surprised that the grips had a different number, which were more in the 32 RP range. He said it wasn't uncommon to have that with these style grips and that S&W being thrifty would sometimes just put on a pair of grips that were in stock, whether the serial number matched or not.

Here are a few pictures of the pistol:



Trigger guard screw



Coil spring

David, I am continuing to cause shorts in my keyboard drooling over your new acquisition. However, like the perp early in Dirty Harry, "I got's to know..." are you going to take that little sweetheart out and shoot it, or will it be a lonely safe queen? Either way, it's a great find and will no doubt provide a lot of pride of ownership. Congratulations.

Charlie (the Frog)

This is 54804, seemingly of identical configuration to 58470 above. Both shipped in July, 1951.

The issue here, as Lee outlined above, is what to call a round butt I-frame in .38 S&W with a four-inch barrel. The .38 Regulation Police, which has a four-inch barrel marked with the model's name, is a square butt gun built on the company's patented rebated frame. All prewar RPs are built on the rebated frame, and after 1953 rebated frames are again seen in production, as exemplified by Lee's guns in the first post of this thread.

The .38/32 Terrier, built on the unmodified round butt I-frame, has a two-inch barrel.

So this variety of four-inch, round-butt gun actually fits in neither category, though the barrels on such guns clearly say "Regulation Police." We can't get any help from the serial numbers; these anomalies are numbered in the .38 I-frame series with RPs and Terriers.





All parts number together, including the stocks.




This gun is not as nice as the other one I posted above. The stocks look as though they were carried in a box with a bunch of loose chisels for a period of time. The gun has a couple of minor dents and pits; the finish is pretty thin, going to patina here and there.

But the action is sound and precise. There is no push-off. Lock-up is good, with end shake and rotational play within reason. Timing is fine. The chambers and bore are shiny and spotless.

The worst news was that the gun needed a major cleaning. The interior was as dry as the Atacama and covered with fossil oil and carbon residue. Some surface rust could be seen on the frame under the stocks, but it came right off. The gun wasn't fired much, but the ammo that was fired had to have been pretty dirty. I disassembled the lockwork and cleaned all the parts, which greatly improved the feel of the action after it went back together.



In the photo above, note the presence of the improved safety block that company began putting in K-frames in 1945 and in N-frames when they resumed production in 1946. The sideplate is of course channeled for the new safety block, as you can see in the next photo.



This gun makes use of a lot of prewar parts -- most obvious are the barrel and large-knob ejector rod. I suspect the frame is prewar because of the small left-side logo, though it is roll-marked with the four-line address block first seen in 1948. If the sideplate was fitted to the frame before the war, it was reworked to permit installation of the safety block.

There are postwar features in addition to the safety block and four-line address. The stocks have the postwar checking pattern. The trigger/hand assembly makes use of a simple loop spring to tension the hand rather than the pinned rocker seen in prewar trigger assemblies. The thumb release is one of the postwar varieties that Hondo44 has identified. There may be other subtleties of postwar production that I didn't catch. EDITED TO ADD: Also the barrel has not been roll marked with patent dates.

A couple of glamor photos:






Charlie, I will shoot this one. It's a used gun, and there is no reason not to shoot it as long as it is cleaned and stored properly after a range trip. Actually, I might shoot the other one too; It's not a complete NIB package, and there is just enough surface wear to keep it from being a superlative specimen of whatever it will turn out to be.

If I could only find one of these with adjustable sights: a .38 Regulation Police Postwar Transitional Target Revolver! (Or .38/32 Kit Gun.)

As a footnote, 54804 is pretty early in the resumed .38 I-frame production schedule. The dividing line between prewar and postwar construction is usually set at 54475. We often lose sight of the fact that I-frame manufacture was suspended in 1940 and not resumed until about 1950, five years after commercial production of K and N frame revolvers resumed.

__________________
David Wilson

David,
Very interesting early gun for study and shooting. It doesn't have patent dates on top of the barrel does it? As early as the gun is, it has the 3rd and last style thumblatch used before the flat latch and then reintroduced after the demise of the flat latch circa 1966.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Correct, no patent dates. Another postwar characteristic of a gun with many prewar elements.

__________________
David Wilson

To recapitulate, so everyone doesn't have to read the entire thread to focus on one revolver.

The gun in the photo is 58470, a round-butt I-frame revolver in .38 S&W caliber. The four inch barrel is marked "REGULATION POLICE". The issue is what to call this model, as the Regulation Police by definition had a square butt. Round-butt .38s had short barrels and were called .38/32 Terriers. This gun fits neither category.




The letter just showed up in my mailbox. Despite the definition-busting round butt, the factory called this gun a Regulation Police when they invoiced it.




Interesting that Roy has lettered a prewar round butt .38 RP in addition to the postwar guns that one could explain as output of a program to use up spare parts without having to do additional machine work.

While I was waiting for the letter to come in, I picked up another one of these, 54804; this one shows some use and occasional hard knocks.



This gun too shipped in July 1951.

I'm not sure how many of these there might be. 54804 is the lowest number known to me on a round butt .38 RP, and 58470 is the highest number I know on such a gun. The closest later RPs known to me, like the one Lee posted to start this thread, have the square stocks and rebated frame that are fundamental to the design. The .38/32 Terriers were produced in the same numbering sequence, and there appear to be quite a few of them. Perhaps there are no more than one or two thousand round-butt RPs out there. Or it could be that 5000 to 10000 were made, allowing extra months of production before the 1953 guns began coming out of the factory. In that case, where are they all? I have no evidence other than what I have laid out here, but I more than half suspect that these round-butt RPs are not that numerous and might make an interesting niche collectible.

I had sort of hoped that this was going to be a long-barrel Terrier. It would have been nice to have a gun that could be called by analogy the .38/32 Dachshund.

__________________
David Wilson

I love it.

Very interesting, David. I doubt they made very many at all.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I believe I might have just acquired one of those Regulation Police in .38 S&W with a Round Butt and a 4" barrel.
Of course, I might be wrong, in fact I'm not really sure what I've got.
I'll be sending Roy a Letter request after I've had a chance to clean it up and get some decent pictures, but here are a couple quick and dirty snapshots.

Serial# 13511 on frontstrap, cylinder, barrel and penciled inside right grip.

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Age + Treachery = JohnnieB

Oops. I think I might have screwed up. Mine has a Rabated Frame.
It has a round butt profile, but has the rabate.
Sorry.

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Age + Treachery = JohnnieB

No problem. It's hard to talk about these because, rebated or not, the grip frame still has a rounded shape. It's the stocks that justify the square butt designation on the Regulation Police revolvers, not the frame (as is the case in the medium and large-frame guns until recent decades).

Just to make this more amusing, after the war small frame guns were built on round butt and square butt frames -- but despite the nominal distinction, to the eye they look like round butt and slightly less round butt frames.

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David Wilson

This seemed like the thread to post this in, it looks like knowledge I need might just happen to be in the heads of you guys.

Sorry for quality of the photographs, I'm still learning how to use the camera and I find I get a lot of suggestions (I need to use photoshop to make my black blacker or something, also I need canned air, etc.)

I picked this up on Saturday. I was, and continue to be, delighted in the gun. When I looked it up in the Standard Catalog I came up with it being a model 1953 Kit Gun. There is a problem however. Here are some pictures of it, you can click on them to get very large versions.










So here is the problem:



The grips are J-Frame. I have 2 other sets of J-Frame diamond grips that I tried on the gun and they are exactly the same.



The thing that is strange to me is that these grips are un-numbered.

After poking around online I finally arrived at this thread, which leads me to wonder if what I have here is not actually a J-Frame gun, but in fact an I-Frame improved? Do I have something strange here?

If you are talking about the grip overhang, it is just normal variation. That IS the long grip frame of the last version of the I frame.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Should the grips have been numbered to the gun? Is it possible that these are not the grips it shipped with?

yes- right grip should be numbered.
yes, quite probable they are not original.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thanks, I seem to have a knack for buying S&Ws that need very rare grips. Or at least I would guess that improved I frame grips are hard to come by?

I hope they aren't as hard as the Registered Magnum Magnas I have been after for over a year now.

Nope.
Same as J frame grips from 1953 forward for more than 30 years. The long grip I frame and J frame grips are the same.
Of course, yours should have diamonds.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Way back at the origin of this thread, the picture of the sharp, fresh checkering on those mint grips really brings out the difference between the more coarse post-War checkering pattern and the finer pre-War style. I noticed it on my pre-War Terrier beside my post-War 32 HE Snub, but both of them are pretty worn, so the difference doesn't stand out the same. As always, thanks for sharing!

Your Phriend the 'phibian

Sixgun,

You have obtained a beautiful example of a Model of 1953 Four Screw. I would just fit the stocks to the gun and be happy. They are correct albeit not the original due to the lack of serial # matching your gun.

You have also stumbled into a confusing era of evolution of this model.

If you go to post #7 on the 1st page of this thread, refer to category #3 in the outline and then to #3 "Model of 1953 I Frames; the ‘pre-models’ 4 screw and 3 screw models:" in the detailed text of the 2nd paragraph, the nuances of the grip frame size and other details of your gun are explained.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thank you very much for the information. I am delighted with the gun.

I must say the stocks still do confuse me, given the overall state of the gun I can't imagine why it would have a set of replacement, but correct, stocks. That is the fun of buying these old guns however, if the stocks had been numbered to the gun I wouldn't have thought much of the poor fit and never come here and learned so much about the transition from I to J frame.

Hey Lee, a question... is that step in the rear gripstrap blued or in the white?

Drew

It is blued.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Drew,

Not to speak for HE, but yes the step is always blue from the factory. They have been observed occasionally added after market. They will be in the white or cold blued.

But the dead giveaway that one is original is the sharp cornered 'toe' at the front of the butt. If the step has been cut in a round butt after the factory, the front toe will be rounded leaving a gap between stocks and grip frame.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks Jim.... always wondered. I've got guns that have both blued and white steps. Of course I've not lettered them.

Drew

This thread marks the first time I've noticed a coil spring stepped frame. I thought that by the time the coil spring action was developed there were both square and round butt grip frames so all that covering up of the frame to make it look square was no longer necessary. It does seem like a lot of unnecessary machining and fitting. Wonder why they stuck with that way of doing things so long?

Froggie

Hi Froggie,

I suppose they didn't want to make new forging dies just for the grip frame and waited until they made new dies for the model of 1953 to make new dies with both grip frame and trigger guard changes.

They made several thousand Improved I frame 32s with the rebated grip from the beginning #554536, lowest # known, to #610935 highest known, before the retooling for the Mod 1953.

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Jim
S&WCA #819