I was at a local gun show today and a seller I have known for awhile and know to be honest was selling somewhere around 20 sight adjustment tools. They were sold to him by a single seller from what I understand. All were new and pristine. Almost too new and pristine. The finish on the blade is almost too shiney, but bought a couple anyway against my better judgement. The quality is really quite good. The only problem is that the blade is to thick to fit any of the screws on any of my pre model target sighted guns. Both sight screws and grip screws. I would appreciate any opinions on the authenticity of this sight adjustment tool.













Thanks, Chad

If their fakes, they are a very good job.
Sometimes price will be a good clue as to originality.

dont know if S/W may have made changes,but I looked at the 2 I have that are blued from post war 48-50 k 22s, on mine the machined portion of the handle the little gripper parts come to a point or are just barely flat on the end but they look pointed,and the tip of the tool is very thin,to be honest I wont even use them to adjust the sights because they are so thin,the hole in the end looks smaller on mine but that could be optical stuff, but not sure, as I know later ones were different in some ways,length of shaft,angle of tip etc,good luck,Bob

The photos look like replicas, to me. Post the same photos along side a genuine sight adjustment tool, as you will see the differences. The biggest indication they are replicas is the extreme thickness of the blade. S&W would not have supplied a tool that didn't fit the slots in the sight screws. Ed.

moosedog, you are correct. The quality is outstanding. As CALREB stated, all my other SAT's have a very thin blade and fit all my pre model N and K frames just fine. While the blades on these new ones fit nothing, pre or post model and they are all the same. Its not just like it was one that was manufactured improperly. Its both and the other 18 are also all the same.

I always find it interesting to see the lengths a talented person will go to in the effort to fake something.

Makes you wonder how far he could go in a legitimate endeavor.

Correct tool is on the right.

The top of the Fake (?) has a pounced radius vs. the flat of the original. The taper of the handle transition to the blade is not as sharp as the original, and the shaft is longer than the original.

As Iggy mentioned someone did some nice machine work on those. To bad the blade does not fit, as I think this person could sell these as replicas and make a few bucks.

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Always Stay Strong!

They can't be all that talented If they can't get the blade thickness correct.A good machinist would not have over looked
this detail.

I do not consider myself a collector, although I do have a "collection" of Smiths.

In spite of my statement above, you might ask one of the SERIOUS collectors on board. I have several different Smith "screwdrivers" from WAY back through to today. They vary a LOT (some even have an aluminum handle).

I tend to agree that those pictured are replicas. However, if I had them, I would simply PROPERLY regrind them and use them or sell them as working replicas (or let the new owner grind his own).

YMMV
Dale53

Just file or grind the tip down until it fits and you're done. I use the proper size craftsman screwdriver and it works great.

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Mike

Ed, Thanks for your observation and thanks too to everyone for your opinions. It amazes me the length someone went to to replicate the originals, but yet never checked to see if they fit the screws on the guns. If they would have fit the screws and the shaft was not so highly polished I would have never gave it a second thought. These tools are real nice, but have no use for replicas so they will be returned tomorrow. Thanks again, Chad

Is it possible that the tip was damaged and shortened and then reblued? Are all of the sellers screwdrivers the same? There was a guy at the Tulsa gun show about 3 years ago selling fakes. I almost bought a couple until someone warned me.

As a machinst for most of my life I was very impressed with the handles, If I had made them that nice I would have set up the Hardinge head on the surface grinder and finshed the tips, rotate 180 deg and finished and I dont think anybody could tell them from the real thing. Very nice work. Jeff

I wouldn't have a problem with "replica" items that are clearly marked in some way as to not be confused with the originals.
And a person could still make a good mark up off of replica items if they were high quality. Too bad.

Your reference to the Tulsa show panicked me for a second. I just bought a SAT at the show, and it was not cheap! Ran to the safe and tried it on a sight and grip...........Woo Hoo, it's REAL!
Thanks for the lesson and all photos. We are smarter consumers now!
paperboy98

Just got back from returnimg the SAT's. I have known and done business with this seller for some time now. Super good people. I felt bad breaking the news to him. He returned my money, apoligized, and took the rest of the SAT's off the market. Thanks again for the assistance. -Chad

This is the one that came with my model 52 from the Bangor Punta era.

Oops. Didn't see the name of the forum before I posted this.

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I suggest that you publish the name that seller, if he's commercial and agreeable. It would be good to identify the honest dealers as well as the skunks; I would certainly want to do business with such a dealer. -S2

The blade taper is too short, the shaft and blade were blued not black oxide coated like the originals and it appears that there is epoxy at the handle to shaft junction. They are fakes. My commentary has a good description and photos of original SATs from 1881 to present.

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Doug

They are fakes. Grind them and use them. Keep your originals minty....

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'Nam 1968-69.DAV,VFW,NRA Inst.

You know, I agree with mosedog above. If the dealer marked them and sold them as reproductions at a reasonable price he could recoup part of his investment.

I, and I suspect others, would accept a reproduction with the price of the originals I see.

yep...i could sure use a couple of these repro's

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SWCA#2208
KK4EMO

Its nothing you can fix with a small file or grinder.

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Dyin ain't much of a livin

I can't at this time post photos, but if someone would go to thisGunbroker auction there are some really good photos of the new recent production S&W factory SATs....
205912677
JIM.............

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SWCA # L-1911

Whoever copied those screwdrivers failed to get darn near any of the details right. The pitch of the knurl, the radiused transition, angle of the tip and thickness. The reverse engineering grades about a D-, a blind man could spot those as fakes. The originals were produced in S&W's screw machine department, probably as "fill in" work when not busy with more important parts. Most fakers fail to get the tool marks on the tapered portion of the tip correct, most fakes have tool marks that line up with the blades long axis while originals exhibit tool marks running perpindicular to the long axis.

After looking at firearmsunlimited's expert commentary then I would say that one on gunbroker looks a lot like one that is represented as being factory for a recent production model 29-10. I would say that it isn't obviously a fake, but I would lean more towards real but not antique and I wouldn't think the $325 price would seem high for something that is only 3 or 4 years young.

daoontz, I agree, the last factory production style from the 29-10 issue guns and way too high.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I enhanced the photos from GB and believe that the SAT pictured is in fact an original that was supplied with the late 2006 29-10. I would tend to agree with Dan that the price seems to be far reaching.

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Doug

I disagree - the marks on the '40-'58 blued shaft SATs run parallel to the blade taper. Although the marks on the black oxide coated shafts are difficult to see, magnification shows that on the '47-'58 the marks run perpendicular, '56-'60 & '60-'64 the marks run parallel and on the '64-'88 hollow ground style blades the marks run perpendicular.

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Doug

Thank you, Gripper, for starting this thread and posting the photos. I'd like to see the photos kept in a sticky, perhaps in a closed thread entitled something like "Known counterfeits".

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NRA Life Member

I am afraid this is another area where there are no absolutes. If one can examine a lot of SAT's, one will observe many variations.

The grinding on MOST knurled black SAT's appears to be done in two steps:
A rough grind that leaves striations perpendicular to the long axis of the shaft.
Then, a finish grind that leaves striations parallel to the shaft axis.
The finish grind VARIES, and you sometimes see the perpendicular striations to one degree or another. Sometimes, the perpendicular lines are not visible at all.
It gets even better- I have seen SAT's that were apparently finished BY HAND with a file, and there are very fine striations at roughly a 45 degree angle to the shaft! I have observed this more than once.

Here is a tip that shows the lines in both directions:



SAT's vary!
Here are two SAT's you would swear were alike if you handled one, walked 10 feet, and handled the other-



Let's look closely.

Different spacing on the knurling-



On one handle, most of the ribs come to an 'edge'-



On the other, the ribs are not rolled as hard, and have a 'trough' on top. I actually see this quite often, and the SAT in the pic above has a few ribs with a very mild 'trough'. Look at the pic of the two handles.



Last, even the holes are different sizes-




When it comes down to it, I'll be amazed if someone can one day lay two SAT's side by side, and find absolutely no differences!

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Excellent post (and photos), Lee. I hope this information finds its way into the next edition of the Standard Catalog of S&W.

As an aside, I see you're using cotton inspection gloves. I have found nitrile gloves to be superior, as they don't remove oil from the finish, they don't leave lint, and they provide a much more secure grip. They're fantastic for use when cleaning firearms as well.

I hope this helps.


David

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NRA Life Member

Great pictures Lee. Thanks for the information. You're right, how could anyone expect a hand-made tool to be identical in all respects to one built by another set of hands, at a different time?

I have but one SAT worth mention, and that came with my K22 OD, The SAT is a work of art on its own. It's presence in the hand is noticeable and solid. Such craftsmanship and quality in what today would be a throw away part. Amazing these S&W's.

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S&WCA #2018

Another fake has surfaced. At least it was priced correctly:

Smith & Wesson Vintage Screwdriver - eBay (item 110631702107 end time Jan-04-11 03:34:23 PST)

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NRA Life Member

Doc,
I think that is one of the 29-10 tools. The listing is kind of deceiving by saying it is "vintage" but it is authentic S&W. The last one on GB was like $325 (ripoff) and this sold for Buy it Now at $20. I would think that is a decent price since that particular screwdriver isn't up for bidding all that often as compared to others.

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Daniel,

Thank you for the correction. I'm glad to see S&W bringing back some decent looking SATs.


David

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NRA Life Member

To go along with Lee's narrative above, great stuff by the way. This one appears fishey to me, but with the variations described it is hard to say. I just think the top doesn't look right (too flat), but I could definitely be wrong.

Although, it only has 8 rows as opposed to 9. So is this a variation of the later model, like 40 to 58? The catalog shows a nickel knurled handle. Did these come blued as well?

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David, when I first saw it I thought it was a fake for sure. Only until I saw one pictured in Bill Cross's album here on the forum did I also realize that it was authentic. It is nice to see them offer something similar again. I actually probably would have been a buyer on that auction if I had seen it for $20 as I don't have one like that yet.