Up to what serial number is a Model 29 4-screw currently eligible to be purchased on a C&R FFL?
Thanks!

You will find that numbers mean nothing--you need to get a ship date to be sure.

Jim

Does every pistol have a ship date stamped on it, or do you have to consult a list that has both serial numbers and ship dates?

If only that were true. Ship dates (month/year) may be available if you call the factory historian--or if you're interested enough to join the Collector's Association, you can post your info on the members side of the forum, and you'll have your info in a couple of days or less.

Jim

As others have all ready stated, S&W's were not shipped in strict serial number sequence. As a very rough guide line, any pre model (non model marked) 29 should be C&R elligible. S&W's were model marked around 1957 so the 50 year rule became effective in 2007.

Since we are now in 2011, guns shipped as of January 13, 1961 are OK for C&R collectors. Therefore, any gun shipped in 1960 or earlier should be OK. From looking at the charts you would be looking at guns with a serial number of S 209,000 or lower.

This should be verified by calling S&W but gives you a rough starting point.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Worn Holster, any Pre-29 (manufactured 1955-1957) should be considered a C&R gun, and as a subset of that any five-screw .44 Magnum would also be C&R. If you are specifically searching for a model-marked 29 (which would be a four-screw gun), you'd have to go the route of a letter in order to distinguish the Model 29s with C&R status from the the Model 29s that are not yet 50 years old.

As a general guideline, serial numbers under S200000 are likelier to be C&R than not -- that is, likelier to have been shipped before the end of calendar 1960. But you'd still need a letter to be completely sure, because some .44 Magnums with serial numbers under S200000 didn't ship until 1961. If you bought one of those as a C&R today, it would be a violation of Federal law. A year from now a gun shipped in 1961 WILL be a C&R.

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David Wilson

Model 29s are not on the official list yet, because some were manufactured less that 50 years ago.

Regardless, even if it were on the list, good luck finding a dealer that would sell one to a C&R licence holder because of the hassle it would take to find out the date.

In fact, good luck finding a dealer that would sell one to a C&R even if it were on the list. Too many so uninformed about what a C&R actually is!

More often than not, I just end up filing out the 4473 and just be done with it!

If you find a Model 29 or pre-Model 29 and want to know if it is C&R eligible, you can call S&W and ask for Roy Jinks. He can look up the shipping date and tell you if it is OK or not.

I have a 44 Magnum stamped MOD-29 in the yoke cut that has a serial number in the S207000 range. It was shipped in November 1960 and is C&R eligible (not for sale, just an example).

All 5-screw 44 Magnums from S130000 to S161000 (if I remember correctly, are on the list and have been for many years).

If there is a question, always check.

Bill

Thank you all for your insight to my question. I agree, that most sellers would be reluctant to sell to a C&R because its their butts that are on the line if they make an inproper sale, but I have seen 29's where the seller advertised it as C&R eligible, and I have asked other seller's if they would sell to an C&R holder and received a yes for an answer, so it is possible. Your information as to how to confirm a Model 29's eligiblity will prove helpful to me when and if I can meet my challenge. Thanks again for your help.

The only model that is C&R approved is "Elmer Keith Commemorative", 44 magnum revolvers, S/N EMK1 - EMK2500

OK, WAY too much paranoia about C&R status.

The ATF is not going to expect you to obtain documentation for every gun you purchase proving it was shipped over 50 years ago. A reasonable assumption that the gun qualifies is what's needed. We can go by serial numbers in most cases and be good to go.

If you have S206900 you can be REASONABLY sure it shipped in 1960 and is C&R qualified. Sure, the gun may have set in inventory until 1961 but a reasonable interpretation holds that it is likely 50 years old. Besides, nobody is going to investigate to make sure... and if they did learn you obtained a gun that was 6 months short of 50 years what do you think would happen, jail time? You'd a letter advising you to be more careful.

You can obtain a determination from the ATF. You will have to include
1- a complete physical description of the item
2- reasons the collector believes the item merrits the classifacation and,
3- data concerning the history of the item, including production figures, if available, and market value.
The above was taken from the Firearms Curios or Relics List from the BATFE

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NRA USPSA NROI IDPA ICORE

The above applies when you are trying to add a gun to the list before it is 50 years old. I tried to have my Model 10-5 made in 1969 added as a presentation piece but it was rejected. In 2019 it will become C&R automatically.

I'm by far no expert and from what I have read with all the info that came with my C&R FFL-03 age alone does not make a firearm automaticly become C&R. I also have a close friend that is a FFL-01 holder and he also stated the same thing that there is more to than just age of a firearm. From what I know all a company has to do is produce a firearm that was produced before using a old patent # and C&R goes out the window.

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NRA USPSA NROI IDPA ICORE

Don, sorry to say that your friend that holds an FFL 01 is in error. Unfortunately, having an FFL 01 does not make anyone an expert on ATF rules.

If you look at the words that C&R stands for, you will get a better idea of the original intention. C&R stands for Curios and Relics.

A Curio is a firearm that is odd or curious and therefore lands on the printed list. There are many firearms on the list that are not 50 years old or were not 50 years old when they first appeared on the list. Many are commeratives or have attained a highly collectible status and are morely sought after as collectibles than as shooters.

A Relic is a gun that has reached an age of 50 years and is therefore also more likely to be sought after as a collectible rather than a shooter.

I offer the following from the ATF website for your review:

Firearms Curios or Relics List

A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR Section 478.11, defines C&R firearms as those “which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.”
To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
2. Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3. Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.

Unfortunately, S&W did not record manufacture dates and only kept track of shipping dates. Since common sense tells us that a gun would have to be manufactured before it was shipped, the ATF is quite satisfied using S&W's shipping records to establish date of birth.

If you are looking to purchase and are not certain, call S&W @ 1-800-331-0852 and ask for Roy Jinks. He will gladly look up the shipping date for you and verify C&R status.

I hope this helps and happy collecting.

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James Redfield
LM #497

don p- JSR III's info (which essentially repeats what I said but for some reason you doubt me) is correct. Curio and Relic. A Curio is a gun with special meaning and can be listed at any age but requires specific listing by the ATF. A Relic is a gun at least 50 years old and this is automatic.

The one exception is military rifles. They must be in 100% original condition to be C&R according to the pinheads at the ATF who make these decisions. An original 1903 Springfield is C&R but one that is "sporterized" is not. Dolts.

A Relic is a gun at least 50 years old and this is automatic.

I must ask, why is it my purchased (2010) Combat Masterpiece 4 screw 38 spl was not sold as a C&R. The gun left the factory in 1957. The selling dealer stated that the gun shoots modern day cartriges availableoff the shelf

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NRA USPSA NROI IDPA ICORE

The dealer who sold you the gun is mistaken. If a gun is 50 years old it is automatically qualified as C&R (unless it's a military rifle that has been modified from original form). A 1957 S&W is absolutely a C&R qualified gun.

Trust me.

SP is absolutely correct. Again I refer you to my comment about FFL 01 folks. The mere holding of an 01 FFL does not make someone an expert on C&R firearms or the rules governing them.

Many FFL 01's that refuse to accept a C&R license do so because they don't understand the rules. I love it when they say in their posting, "I only accept FFL's." Well, technically, a C&R is a FFL. The main difference between an FFL 01 and an FFL 03 is the 01 does it for a living and an 03 does it for personal reasons. An FFL 03 or C&R license holder is forbidden from "deriviving a substansial portion of their income from the buying and selling of firearms."

Any FFL 01 that refuses to do business with a Federally Licensed 03 individual is a fool. They don't just hand out those licenses willy nilly and in this economy, turning down any business is just dumb.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Just an FYI, a sporterized 1903 would be C&R eligible if you can prove it was sporterized over 50 years ago, like a G&H or a Sedgley hunting rifle.

I don't know. Aren't the commemorative pieces newer guns, as they commemorate the older guns. That makes them less then 50 years old. Just wondering, not trying to upset anyone. rgm36

The C&R list is for curios AND relics. If ATF has acted to classify a recent limited-production commemorative as a curio, then it can go on the list even if it is not yet 50 years old.

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David Wilson

ALL of the guns on the ATF "list" were granted C&R status when they were less than 50 years old. They are the Curios. Even though many are now 50+ when first listed they were younger.

Again, when gun hits 50 it is automatically C&R. Many people mistakenly think the gun must be on the list. Not true. The vast majority of C&R qualified guns are not the list because they had to wait to be 50 years old.

I purchased the 44 Magnum C&R that I was seeking, and the seller had the letter from the S&W historian that identified the 1958 shipped date of the pistol. That is all the proof necessary to buy and/or sell it on a Curio and Relics 003 license.

When Saxon Pig speaks you mostly will get the straight facts about whatever it is he is talking about. No sugar coating & spoken so even the non believers can understand. In this case he is 100 % right on!

Are you trying to satisfy a MD law, similar to what we have in CA - that a C & R eligible 29 can be brought into the state (via FFL) but a non - C & R eligible 29 can not? Or is it just a matter of getting it direct to your door?