New member looking for what kind of "gun" a female might have been given as a gift for self protection, fits into pocketbook, for Christmas, 1952.

A photo would be nice, too. This is for a book currently in the works.

It was found in the glovebox of a buried 1953 Cadillac on today's date in the desert outside of Yuma Arizona (at least until the editor starts revisions....)

Thanx so much. I may be stopping in for other info, I will be needing information on skeet guns in the future when I get an OK from project director.

Greg

Browning 25 or Colt 32/380 semi-auto?

A LadySmith of course.

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Dom

Thank you for the quick responses, now I just have to find out what a 'ladysmith' is and details so I can describe it to my readers.

Is there a place on the S&W website that has info on this? Again, thanx Greg

(You are an embarrassment to the forum!)


No doubt she would have been given the just released (1952), ultimate personal defense S&W of the era, The Centennial!!
The safest and smoothest double action revolver ever made in the newly introduced J frame in .38 Special!

If she is firearms familiar, then a 1903 Colt auto. If not, the Centennial.

Either way, tastefully embellished!

My vote goes to the Chief's Special. Lots of info and photos here:

The Really Old Chief's Special Thread

If you're asking about S&W models, then the S&W Chief's Special, subsequently known as the Model 36, or S&W Centennial, subsequently known as the Model 40, might fill the bill.
Both were small frame, 5-shot revolvers in .38 Special caliber with a 2" barrel, the shortest and most compact models offered at that time by S&W.

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John

Greg-

I am a writer and know the issues involved in getting guns right. It will add a lot to your story acceptance to get details correct. I have stopped reading books when it became apparent that the author didn't know what he was talking about.

I think your logical choice is a Colt or S&W snub .38. If it had a light alloy frame (lighter to carry) it would be a Colt Cobra. The steel frame Detective Special is the same gun, except for the material in the frame. Heavier, but more durable, if shot much, and recoils less.

My first choice would be a S&W Chief's Special with round butt and in steel frame. I don't think a girl would want a Centennial; they're ugly and the hammer can't be cocked for a more precise shot with less disturbance to the aim. That would be especially important if she was just learning to shoot, although the average gun carrier then probably didn't practice much unless she was serious about the matter. The average girl might fire one box of ammo and not shoot much thereafter. She might not shoot it at all unless a man took her out to shoot.

I'll answer your skeet gun question now. Either Remington M-870 or a Winchester M-12, either in skeet grade with better grade wood, a ventilated rib on the barrel and a recoil pad. Such a gun would also be effective for hunting to about 25-30 yards. Farther out, you'd want a tighter choke.

Don't give her a Browning automatic: they weren't regularly imported here prior to 1954. Colts discontinued at the end of WW II would still be available, some previously unsold. The choice would be between the .25 auto and the .32 or .380, both in the same basic model. Only caliber differed. How big is her purse? The .25 is less effective, but fits almost all purses, save the really tiny ones.

Look up these guns and see pictures. Try to handle them. Something will tell you which she had, if you know your character. You also need to know the person who gave her the gun. He may have chosen what he'd use, or given her a .32, thinking that was all that a girl could handle. That was very common thinking among men then, even on police forces.

A lot of the advice that you'll get here will be be less than optimum. I once asked about guns that members would have chosen had they been on the Challenger expedition depicted as being in 1919 on a syndicated TV show, "The Lost World." About 70 % of the guns chosen were unlikely, some not even being made then. I wrote fan fiction, and included some guns not seen on the show, in the hands of characters whom I created for particular stories. I thought that someone might hit on one that I'd missed that would fit a particular character. I needn't have bothered. I also enjoyed speculating on what I'd have chosen, had I been on the expedition. It's fun arming characters, but you do have to know guns well and know your characters. And their times...

Keep in mind that a gun found in a burned car might have been damaged by the heat and be unsafe to use, except as evidence.

Good luck with your book. I have one about half completed. I wish the rest of the story was as easy to write as the gun data.

T-Star
P.S. I'll share a humorous gun-author story. In, "Savages", Shirley Conran armed characters with Smith & Wesson "Chick's Specials." I assume that she either misheard what an advisor told her, or that her consultant was having fun with her. But a knowledgeable reader could tell what she meant and the book is otherwise excellent. I highly recommend it to those who can find a copy, maybe at the library or used book store. It is an exceptional story of survival near Papua-New Guinea after a terrorist attack. Conran got most of her data from British military survival experts.

Model 12 for the shotgun.

FWIW, thank you for taking the time to do this. Some writers do not bother and go with "common knowledge" or outright fabrication and for me this destroys all interest in the story, no matter how well written the rest of it may be.

Many years ago, I was a several times published poet, but I retired on all the money I made...(joke)

Good luck.

mark

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Liberals made the USA

Never mind what a Ladysmith was/is. None of the versions fits the times or the circumstances. Maybe the poster was trying to be humorous.

The original Ladysmith was a very small .22 revolver made around the turn of the 19th and 20th Centuries. Although possible, I seriously doubt that it would be given to a girl in the 1950's, by which time it was long out of production and regarded mainly as a collectible.

The other guns sold under the LadySmith name are modern, not made in 1952.

I certainly encourage you to learn what the 1952- made version of the Chief's Special looked like and the similar Colts and the .32 and .380 Colt automatics. Also, the Colt .25 auto, if her purses were small.

The imdb Movie Gun Database has photos of many of these, if not all. Someone please post the URL for them, if that's still allowed here under forum rules. I think that's okay, just not posting links to other gun boards. (I got jacked up for that recently.)

It also would depend on what kind of woman she was. If she was a 90-pound school teacher, it might be an H&R 22 Defender or an S&W kit gun. If she was a lady of the evening, maybe a derringer that would slip into her garter, or possibly a nickel-finish .380 with pearl grips. A gun says a lot about its owner ... as well as about the person who gave it to her!

A gift given to a woman in 52?? I frame 32 Smith. No self respecting male of the early 50's would give his woman a 38....a 32 would be a gun...
There are threads in this section devoted to the I frame 32's....

1952--there were a lot of military handguns brought back from WWII, if that would work with your character.

Could pick by size from tiny to large, or by country of origin, or revolver or semi-automatic, or name that is interesting, or caliber....

Here are pics of my 1970 Colt Cobra. I realize you are looking for a 1952 edition. Maybe it will help even though it is a newer model.
All the best with your book.

Attached Images

	DSC01077.jpg (112.5 KB, 23 views)
	DSC01075.jpg (104.4 KB, 24 views)

Hmm, well if you are looking for something out of the norm, I would use a Savage .32 pistol. Not all that common but right for your time period. Maybe a Smith & Wesson Terrier. Another gun that was popular in those days were the little Walther .25's. Nice, slim, exactly what would fit in a purse. Here is a pic of a Walther Model 8 .25 ACP.



Another gun could be the old Colt Agent, some of their revolvers would fit the bill.

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Vaya con Dios

Something to consider here is the financial situation of the gifter. Just because a Chiefs Special was (theoretically) available in 1952, doesn't mean one could have afforded one. And, remember that a small, light .38 caliber which fired the same ammunition as heavier police sidearms may not have been considered an appropriate choice for a man choosing a gift for a woman of that era.

If the gifter were a veteran of World War 2 Europe (or shopped in a gun store that carried WW2 "bring-backs"), a .32 semi-automatic such as a Mauser HSc, Walther PP, etc., would be a logical selection based both on caliber/size and affordability. If a revolver was specifically desired and/or if a newer gun could be afforded, I'd opt for a Smith & Wesson .38/.32 "Terrier." (Note that while this gun was of the same approximate size as the snub-nosed Chiefs Special, it was chambered for the less powerful .38 S&W round, not the police-standard .38 Special round as used in the Chiefs Special and larger police guns.) And, finally, if the lady in question was the owner of the '53 Cadillac, she came from money and probably associated with other rich people. A protective dad or admiring suitor may then have gone with an engraved piece. Something truly lady-like that would fit in even a lady's small clutch purse would be an engraved, nickel-plated pre-war (Model 1908) Colt .25 semi-auto.

Those are my thoughts. Good luck!

Steve

If the gun was found in a '53 Cadillac then I'm thinking upscale, either well-heeled country club set, urban sophisticates, wealthy industrialists, or mobsters. How about a tastfully engraved nickel Chief's Special pre 36 with ivory grips? Added twist: It letters from a high-end sporting goods store from Connecticut, New York City, or Chicago.

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Tom in AZ
Respect the Dingbat

Hey there SDH... I am glad to see that my old #171 lives on!!

To the OP, a Centennial revolver with a grip safety would make a great purse gun.

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Pete T.

OMG! Had no idea I would get so many helpful responses. Just for clarification, the car was buried in the sand, intact and 'undamaged', NOT burned (altho that was an option).

I don't have time to thank all of you personally, so thanxto all of you.

I will be studying all of your answers and pix and decide on which seems most appropriate.

I actually had not considered the personality of the gift-giver, so I guess I'll have to write him into the story now.

Again, thanx, Greg

My vote would be for a S&W DA 32:


Or a S&W New Departure 32. The bottom gun in the picture was actually carried by a "Madam" of a "Cat House" in St Louis:

The Savage 1907 .32 ACP was aggressively marketed to women when it was first sold. "10 Shots Quick" was the advertising slogan and one of the brochures showed a woman with a Savage pistol "running off" a man trying to break in to her house or apartment. Bat Masterson, who had retired as a western gunfitghter and was working as a sportswriter in NYC, wrote that brochure.

Savages are still available, used, and still work now. In 1952 it might have been possible to find one new and unfired.

If I was writing the story I might use a Savage because I could have it on the desk to look at while I worked. I also have a Colt 1903 .32 and a small FN .32. Either would be another possibility.

I looked at a Colt 1903 at a gun store here in Michigan's U.P. that had the original registration papers from 1920 with it. What might interest you is that the 1903 was originally registered to a mine official's wife.

Michigan is one of the states that require a form of registration for handguns. Many states don't. Writers often make the mistake of imposing registration on people who wouldn't have been required to register their guns.

Make the gun a LadySmith. LadySmith is a registered marketing term used by S&W for generations to describe a small to medium frame gun appropriate for a lady. Making a S&W a LadySmith is as simple as affixing "LS" after the appropriate model number. Since many guns have been called LadySmith over the years practically any configuration is correct so just use what best fits your story.

LadySmith has the added advantage of having been hammered into the public psyche over the years by S&W marketing and will sound correct to 99+% of your readers right off the bat. It did to you, right?

Bob

I would vote for the S&W Centennial. A woman would be carrying the gun in her purse, and a Chief Special would get the hammer hung up in all the misc. junk a woman carries in her purse.

I disagree on the skeet gun choices if the character in the book is an avid skeet shooter. An avid shooter would be using a skeet choked Browning O/U (Belgan made) with 26" barrels in the 50's. ( And quite a few still today). It is a more expensive gun. If the character is an occasional shooter and of lesser financial means, then Model 12 skeet gun might be appropriate. The Remington 870 Wingmaster was only introduced in 1950, and I don't believe the Skeet model was produced until later.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

The personality and expertise of the gifter is essential. Women want jewelry and are sometimes confused, even insulted, when a man gives them a gun. In reality it is a huge gift of love, trust, and respect from a man. A good man anyway, who is secure in his manhood. The gifter could have been a husband, lover, uncle, or father. The gun will reflect his personality/character, and hers.

Will the gun need to work when taken from the car? If so, a revolver is your only choice.

Based on what you've told us thusfar, a nickle plated 32 caliber S&W revolver would be my suggestion. Not the antiquated New Departure but the more modern I-frame 32 hand-ejector (pre-model 30). It would have a 3 1/4" barrel, fixed sights, and a round butt with wood grips. The cylinder would hold a full six rounds of 32 S&W Long. Most men OF THE ERA would have considered the 32 a good ladies gun, but hte 38 Special too powerful for a woman to handle.

as a fellow writer i vote for either the chief's special aka the model 36
or a centennial aka the model 40. for the shotgun for shooting skeet i would go with the remington 870 having been introduced in 1950 its a fine shotgun.

Those are excellent choices....for now. The Centennial, one of my favorite guns, was underappreciated during the time and was dropped from production in the 60s. Again, most men of the era would have considered the 38 to kick too much and too big for a woman. Double-action only? No way unless the gifter was a shooter and trainer ahead of his time (way ahead). Very different from what we would now give our wives and daughters.

I'm surprised that no one has suggested a 2" Military & Police aka a pre M10. A glovebox gun doesn't have to be small and a pre M10 is a lot easier to shoot than a Chief's Special. I've known a number of ladies that have purse carried K frame revolvers.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Hi:
I was around in that era. Popular handguns for ladies were hammerless five shot breaktop revolvers in .32 S&W/.32 Colt Short caliber.
Jimmy

Thanx again for the additional input since my last thank you note.

A clarification: the skeet guns are for a different story and would be set in the present, not in the 1950's. Sorry that I didn't make that clear.

ACP230: interesting note on registrations, I will keep that in my file

HRichard: You are the first person to mention the hammer getting stuck in a purse...hmmmm.

Again, thank you all. I now have enough info to do several other stories and have gotten great pictures, too

Greg

In the 1950's a Lady would carry a 32, in 1954 that would be either an S&W I frame or similar Colt for a revolver. However I think in '54 there would also be a good chance a Walther PPK would show up in a Cadillac.

For skeet guns of that era don't forget the Browning Superposed or Remington 11-48.

To clarify, the question IS "what gun would a man have given a woman as a Christmas gift in 1952?". To answer this question one must consider the attitutes and available informational resources of the time. The gun would not have likely been purchased from a gun store either, but rather a hardware or drug store unless from a major city or area of serious recreational shooting.

If the question were "what gun would you have given a woman as a gift in 1952?", then I would also have provided her a then-new Centennial 38 with a nickle finish. I would have handloaded some 38 Special semi wadcutters at about 950 fps for her to carry in it as well, then trained her to use it.

The gifter would have been statistically unlikely to have been an expert in modern firearms. There were no S&W forums, no gun magazines, no gunsite, no Thunderranch....just the clerk at the guncounter at the hardware store, or perhaps what the gifter heard from his hunting buddies or had been trained in during the war. The clerk would want to sell you something that the lady LIKED and would not be inclined to return. Something pretty (nickle plated) that did not "kick too much". Hence, a 32 S&W Long revolver, 32 ACP auto, or even a 380 would have been the most likely answers.

I happen to own the gun that was given to the girlfriend of David "Carbine" Williams. The short version is that he was a moonshiner that got into a shootout with the local law dogs. One of the deputies was shot and killed and David Williams was convicted and sent to prison. While there he worked on several different gun designs. (GOOGLE search his name for details) He is credited as being the lead designer of the M1 carbine and hence the nickname.

As for the gun, it is a modified Smith & Wesson Ladysmith with a shortened barrel and a bobbed hammer. All of the gun smithing was performed by Williams and I even have the small piece of the original barrel that was removed complete with the original front sight.

Jimmy Stewart starred in a movie in 1952 about the life of David Marshall Williams.


So, based on the above, my vote goes with a S&W Ladysmith.

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James Redfield
LM #497

My wife and I moved to Anchorage, AK in 1967. As I went directly out to the Aleutian Islands on a major construction job, her being alone in Anchorage started carrying the only handgun we owned at the time. She carried a Colt Python, 4" in her purse for two years. We switched her to a Smith Model 15, 2 1/2" which had been round-butted by a previous owner.

Now, I can't believe the number of times we flew from Anchorage to Las Vegas and back with her gun in her purse. ......... Big Cholla

Alright, there is no question about all this. The gun was a Smith .32 HE in .32 long. The car, buried in the sand outside of Yuma, had to be on the California side of the Colorado River in the sand dunes. Meaning the revolver in question was given to the lady by a corrupt detective in the LAPD. That department was deep into shady dealings in 1952. It was no doubt an issue gun or one taken from the evidence room, as the dick did not want to spend his own dough on this dame. I also see the newly elected Vice President Richard M Nixon also involved in this event. Although I don't think any direct contact with her had ever come to light. We all know there can be many twists and turns in a tragic story like this. But what we do know for sure....the weapon found was a Smith and Wesson 32 HE.

On the other hand, Bonnie Parker was known to favor 45's. There was not much difference between what was available in 1930 and 1950.

Oh and I forgot about the empty. I don't mean spent case, but empty charge hole. That tells us who put the car there in the first place.

NO, NO, NO.

A "ladies gun" of the era, particularly one given by a man as a gift, would be a nickel plated, pearl handled .25 auto. Everyone knows that a woman can't handle anything more powerful, anything bigger isn't going to fit in her purse, and she's just going to use it to "scare off" the bad guys anyway.

Everyone who is suggesting the double-action only Centennial is forgetting how weak women are. That's why the Centennial is so safe - with the grip safety and DAO trigger, only a man has the strength to operate one. Heck, you could leave one fully loaded lying around the house, secure in the knowledge that women and children would be unable to fire it.

Also women are only going to want something shiny and pretty. It would be an insult to give a woman a blued gun. My vote is for a nickel plated, engraved Baby Browning with real mother-of-pearl stocks. That's the closest thing in the firearms world to jewelry, and would go well with a woman who drive a Cadillac.

Or so would be the thinking of the time.

It's clear to me--a nickel Terrier--which is a 38 cal. snub on the Improved I frame.

The nickel is pretty, and it has a noun for a name--always good in a story.

Nice choice, but I don't think Browning imported these until 1954. I noted that here in a previous post. And the post about the Centennial being hard for women to fire is largely valid.

But thanks for this nice photo of the Baby Browning in Ren. grade!

The gun should be a 32 I frame. The skeet gun ruling the fields at that time was the Winchester model 12 pump. A lot of them had Cutts Compensators attached.

I can only tell you what my grandmother carried in her purse in the 1940's and 50's. A Colt 1903 pocket pistol in .32 ACP.
I still have the pistol.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Embarrassment or not, a Colt's Hammerless 32 ACP would be a dandy ladies gun.

A "ladies gun" of the era, particularly one given by a man as a gift, would be a nickel plated, pearl handled .25 auto. Everyone knows that a woman can't handle anything more powerful, anything bigger isn't going to fit in her purse, and she's just going to use it to "scare off" the bad guys anyway.


Also women are only going to want something shiny and pretty. It would be an insult to give a woman a blued gun. My vote is for a nickel plated, engraved Baby Browning with real mother-of-pearl stocks. That's the closest thing in the firearms world to jewelry, and would go well with a woman who drive a Cadillac.

Or so would be the thinking of the time.

I went online and did some research on this gun. If I change the story, this gun could have a history of being used in the French Resistance movement, perhaps by her mother who fell in love with one of the liberation US soldiers. It was referred to in some articles as a much loved weapon due to its ability to be easily hidden due to its size. Apparently the Baby Browning could even be hidden in a cigarette pack. I could not dig out the exact size and weight, if any one could supply that I would be appreciative.

Thanx Greg

Just keep in mind that the 25 ACP is the most netoriously underpowered rounds ever invented. Many have been shot with one and not even noticed. Inaccurate to boot.
When I was a cop I met a "gentleman" who had recently been shot in the head with a 25. One could see where it had entered then made a burrough along his skull before it stopped, some six inches later, lodged under the skin. He was walking around and teling us that nothing had happenned and he did not require our services. He was, of course, a known drug dealer.

Here's a link for the Baby Browning, with size and weight iirc.

Baby Browning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Give her something more interesting, a "Black Widow" Luger from WWII? byf 41 or 42 Mauser Parabellum (Luger) with black bakelite grips

Luger P08 pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sure when the nickname black widow was first used, 1960s?

No one mentioned the .32 or .380 "SAVAGE" Pistol?


Nice used ones would have been very probable for the early 1950s.


My first thought though, was an immediate post-War S & W 'Terrier' Snub-Nose, in .38 S & W...Nickle, Walnut Stocks.

While certainly possible, I do not think it is so believeable for a man to give a woman a used gun to go with her new Cadillac.