Dear Forum - This post refers to the same modified revolver I posed questions for in the 'Smithing' area - I have questions about the identity that you may be able to help with. The serial number (45157) and the smooth fore and back straps suggest a prewar heavy duty, but the top of the frame at the frame to barrel transition looks more like an Outdoorsman. Also, it appears that the gun featured adjustable sights that were replaced with modern ones. The adjustable sights appear to contradict the smooth backstrap (I believe they were serrated on the Outdoorsman). Any suggestions as to what this started out as? I can provide more photos if necessary. Any assistance will be appreciated.

Well, it's a prewar frame that has been modified to accept a Model 57 barrel and, presumably, cylinder -- though the original cylinder might have been bored out from .38 to .41 caliber.

That serial number is right in the middle of a cluster of .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers, so that's a reasonable origin guess. But it is at least theoretically possible that this frame was originally on a .455 HE, as there was some serial number overlap between the models.

The top of the frame has been channeled in order to accept a postwar micrometer click sight, and the area in front of the sight has been grooved to match the rib on the later barrel. This was not an adjustable-sight revolver at its time of manufacture.

The stocks are from a third era -- those are 1920s service stocks. Do they have a number stamped or penciled inside them? And do you see the serial number stamped on the back face of the cylinder?

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David Wilson

The cylinder looks too short to be a 41 Magnum. Does 41 ammo actually fit? I assume the cylinder is not counterbored? Likely the original 38 Special unit rebored.

Somebody sure spent a lot of money/did a lot of work on this thing.

In answer to your questions: The cylinder is numbered to the gun, as is the yoke. The cylinder has been bored to accept a .41 cartridge. The stocks are not original to the gun (the gun was fitted with large target-style magnas), are not numbered and appear to be mismatched, as the left has a large gold medallion while the other is plain. The work appears to be well done, but I can find virtually nothing on a 38-44 to 41 conversion. I would really like to know who did the work, but there is no information and nothing on the frame that provides a clue. DC - You indicate that the frame was modified to accept the Model 57 barrel: what issues might I encounter trying to refit a stock 38-44 barrel as part of a conversion back to the original caliber (I have a 38-44 cylinder)? The other option is to use it in a .41 special configuration - I would think that the 38-44 cylinder would handle the pressure (?) Thanks to all for the information.

I recall back in the 1960s Skeeter Skelton, Elmer Keith and others were calling for a 41 Special for police use. The 41 Magnum was S&W's response which was not what they wanted. They complained that this caliber was too powerful for the intended purpose and they were right.

After the 41 Magnum was released several gun writers embarked on creating the 41 Special of their dreams, modifying guns into the new caliber. I bet this gun was built during this time, the owner inspired by what he read in the magazines. I assume that full-length 41 Magnums will not fit the chambers and cases must be shortened? This makes it a hand-load only proposition.

At this point, the cost of doing anything with this gun will be very high and the end result will likely be less than fully satisfying. If it were mine, I would leave it as is and appreciate it as a piece of Americana. I would load shortened 41 brass to no more than 1000 FPS with 210 grain bullets and shoot it. Nobody at the range will say they have one just like it.

Amen to that! It sure is the first 5 screw .41 I've ever seen. I also agree with SP that the loads should probably be kept on the light side.

Actually, the cylinder is long enough for the .41 magnum cartridge, but I am not inclined to be the first to test fire it with that (I can't tell if it was ever fired in its current configuration). There is some .41 special ammunition available in the loading you describe, so I may try that. Thanks again for the information and advice, it's very much appreciated.

You can look up online the .41 Special loading data that John Taffin worked up. I just loaded some .41 Special's earlier today, the brass was shortened and I used some wheel weight cast 215 grain SWC's and 13.0 grains of 2400, this should give you a 1000 or so fps load. I have shot alot of these out of my .41 Magnum revolvers and the recoil is very pleasant. Starline once in a while sells some .41 Special marked and already made brass.

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Vaya con Dios

Thanks again - One additional question: Since the cylinder accepts the magnum cartridges, would a load such as a 41 magnum "cowboy action load" be reasonable to use for plinking? There is some available with a 235 gr RNFP bullet @ 875 fps.

As far as I know, the frames for 38/44's were identical, and in fact the
same, as the frames for a 44 caliber. Ie, the only difference was the
bore of the barrel, and the chambering in the cylinder. So, your gun
should be able to handle any cartridge that is no more powerful
than a 44 special.

Mike Priwer

I haven't taken a micrometer to the barrel rib width and height of the models involved, so I am just assuming that postwar ribbed N-frame barrels all start out from the same barrel blanks. If you got a postwar .38-44 barrel (Numrich still has them in the white), I would expect the rib on the new barrel to match the channel in your modified frame. But if it's off by a couple of thousandths of an inch, you'll have a discontinuity that could potentially bother you a lot. I don't know if the groove counts on top of the rib are consistent from model to model.

All ribbed postwar Outdoorsman barrels are 6.5 inches long; you'd have to cut the replacement and remount the front sight to end up with a .38 version of what you have now.

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David Wilson

Thanks for the information David - I have obtained a 6.5 inch post-war 38-44 barrel - it is described as a pre model 23, so it has the top rib and Outdoorsman style front sight. I'll see how it matches up with the frame. Regarding the potential discontinuities that might be bothersome: are they merely cosmetic issues, or could they affect the integrity of the gun?
Mike

Thanks Mike - Please bear with me, as I am not savvy regarding handloading: What specifically determines the 'power' of the cartridge - is it a matter of pressure, or just the bullet weight and velocity? With regard to the 41, I'm trying to understand the difference between a cut down case loaded to subsonic velocities as opposed to a standard 41 magnum loaded for subsonic velocities (aka, the 'Cowboy' load). Does the case length come into play here? Can you or others please elaborate on the difference? Thanks.

I posted some comments in the Gunsmithing section on this. I hadn't seen this thread and the photos.

I mentioned that the front, top portion of the frame had to have been built up either by welding or even perhaps brazing. Then recontoured to accept the much wider bbl rib of the M57 bbl. The OD frame has a much narrower flat in that area to join the same width rib on the bbl.
A HeavyDuty has a lower rounded shape with a bevel cut to the front edge so some work would need to have been done using a HD also.

A nickle plating job nicely covers either welding or brazing/silver soldering work from any color mismatch that bluing would show.
There does appear to be a pit in the frame contour on the top, right in one of the pics.

My advice was to procede slowly and rethink what you may be doing, not knowing who or how the work was done.
Refitting a M23 bbl will require that area to be re-contoured back to fit the narrow rib and you'll be cutting into that custom welded/brazed/built up area.

It may be quite sound and safe. It could be an inclusion filled area. The bbl threads in the frame should have been protected during the work.
Tough to tell from here. Just some thoughts..

Mike, I'm going to defer to 2152hq on this one. It sounds like he has been able to do some physical comparisons that I have not.

But I will express the suspicion that turning this gun back into a fairly normal .38/44 would be more expensive than just buying one that has never been reconfigured.

Anyway, even if the gun is not factory original, isn't there a high coolness factor to having the world's only known .41/44 Outdoorsman?

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David Wilson

Mike,
"Power" is usually estimated based on bullet weight and velosity or bullet kenetic energy but "power" wasn't the best choice of words. You're interested in how much stress the cylinder and frame can take and the best number for that is chamber pressure. Generally, a larger volume case can drive a given bullet faster than a smaller volume case at the same pressure or attain the same velosity at lower pressure.

There are factory loaded .41 magnums available that produce lower pressure than hunting or full power cartridges, but not necessarily low enough pressure to be advisable for your gun. I don't know what pressure limit is advisable or the pressure of down loaded factory cartridges but there is a good chance that cowboy loads are sold for .41 mag. they would have the least pressure. If it were mine, I'd have a worry free fun time firing home cast 200 to 220gr. bullets at about 800 fps. Cowboy loads are usually assembled to produce very low recoil and may have even lower pressure.

I like skillfully crafted old project guns that made sense in their day but make no sense when viewed from today's perspective. This one appears to have been skillfully crafted and I can understand why it would have been done in the early 1970s when used 29s readilly sold for 75% over msr and used 57s only fetched $50-$75 less, but they should have at least used a 28 or 27 frame. Maybe the owner who modified it did the conversion themselves using what they had on hand and knowing its strength limitation, enjoyed it for their lifetime firing low pressure reloads. That makes sense, but this gun makes no sense to me for a non-reloader.

Best Regards,
Gil

I deeply appreciate all the information that forum members have provided, and the advice is certainly appreciated and not lost on me. At this juncture, it seems that the best path going forward is to consider shooting the gun with reduced pressure 41 cartridges - I still have some questions regarding using reduced 41 magnum loads versus 41 special loads, and will carefully consider the options and do the homework. If only I could elicit a response as to who did the original work - but to date, that info is not available. The benefit of belonging to this forum goes without saying.
Mike

Could the frames metallurgy have bee altered through the milling and brazing? Pretty cool revolver any way you slice it.

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Go West young man..

I believe there are still no industry standards for .41 special and it is still a wildcat. I've seen them built on L frames, GP-100s, and large single actions. You would have to ask whoever is selling .41 special cartridges what size gun their's are intedned to be safe in or what pressure they load to.

You have asked a couple times so I will offer my $.02 worth. I see no advantage in loading/shooting "41 Specials" over down loaded or cowboy loads in 41 Magnum cases. The bother and expense of finding 41 Special brass would eliminate that choice for me. Just be sure a factory or heavy handload 41 Mag never finds its way into your revolver. You might get away with it for a while (or the original owner might have) but at some point it could let go and cause serious injury. (YMMV)

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Hello All - Realizing this post is really old, just thought I'd provide an update. Finally obtained some .41 Special Ammunition from Reed's RAR - specifically the button-nose wadcutter in 205 Grain at 950fps. No issues with this load. Have ordered some HSM Cowboy Action .41 Magnum (210 grain@969fps) - will see how this works (proceeding with caution). Welcome any comments! Mike. PS - The conversion was done long ago - found its way to me. I would much rather have the original!

I wouldn't call it an "atrocity". Anomaly may be more like it. I'd leave it as is and shoot the devil out of it! Good time to learn to reload too. You'll never regret it.
Have fun with it,
Scott

Hey Scott - Thanks for the comment - actually, the work was well done - my reference was more to lament the conversion of such a classic revolver. Mike.

.

The first quote, from your other thread, seems to be able to be answered with the additional info in this one. Call or email HSM & Reed's to find out what pressure their's are loaded to. Otherwise it's only a guess, not knowing how they're loaded. Either cartidge can be loaded over 30K psi.

You said you didn't see any signs of overpressure with the 41 Specials but any potential overpressure problem is with the gun, not the cartridge, so you won't see it until it's too late, right?

.

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Waiting for the break of day

I would much rather have this "atrocity" than any .36 caliber heavy frame. But I'm a forty-one fan from way back. I think this thing is great. If you decide to unload it cheap, give me a shot at it.

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Jeb

Thanks Jeb - I will keep that in mind. I guess I used a poor term - I didn't mean that the build itself is an 'atrocity' - actually it was very well done. Just that such a modification of a classic S&W is not well thought of by many collectors. Mike.

I would say it started out as a 5" 38/44 Heavy Duty. One number off this one went to a PD in Ohio. Is there a "B" stamped on the right grip frame? If so this gun started life as a blue gun. Possibly this is a PD gun that had seen it's better days when whoever bought it decided to do the modifications you see here. My 2 cents.

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38-44heavyduty.com

I'll bet you are right on with this hunch. Yes, there is a 'B' at the bottom of the right grip frame. Thanks for your insight - had not considered that this might be a PD revolver...makes me want to get a letter on it...

*
Remember that this work was done a good 40+ years ago, long before the most prevalent of the type of collectors ofter seen today, especially those such as seen on this forum. Many guns were modified in ways that made complete sense to the person doing the work (or having it done). To most shooters, these guns were tools, and modifications were made for the problems to be solved, in a manner that satisfied the shooter.

I can't say I would want to shoot this with full power .41 Magnum loads, but that would usually be true. However, for a service or personal defense revolver, some load about 210-220 grains, probably a Keith SWC or something similar, going downrange around 850-1000 fps ... it would be outstanding.

While collectors are somewhat common on this forum, and more common now than 40-odd years ago ... they are still a modest niche of gun owners as far as I am aware. I only person I think of in that way ... and he still has mostly fighting guns like virtually everyone I know.

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NHI, 10-8.

Very well said Doug. And point very well taken. Thanks.

Once again, a wealth of valuable information from the members! Thanks!

i have a 38/44. can the cylindar be bored out to 357 mag. vin

Welcome to the Forum.

You would do better to start your own thread, rather than piggyback on this one that originally started 10 years ago and was last updated nearly three years ago.

Yes, it can be bored out. It destroys the collector value of your revolver. Is it safe to do so? I really don't know.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!