I HAVE MY FATHERS S&W .22MAG AND I DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT, ALL I KNOW IS THAT IT CAME FROM GERMANY 1960 TO 1964 HE WAS IN THE ARMY THEN. ITS MISSING A SCREW ON TOP,IT HAS A CROWN ON THE GRIPS, AND HAS A 4 DIGIT SN STRATING WITH A V. ANY HELP IN IDENTIFYING THE MODEL, AGE, WHEN MADE AND WORTH WOULD BE HELPFUL, ALSO I WAS TOLD S&W HAS A REFERB SHOP I CAN SEND IT TO AND THEY WILL REDO THE GUN, WILL THIS HURT PRICE AND HAS ANYONE DON THIS? THANKS FOR ANY HELP.

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You have an older S&W that someone has significantly customized. The grips were replaced with what are probably from King's gunshop out in California. This may also be the source of the aftermarket adjustable rear sight added to what was once a fix-sighter gun. It this a 22 Magnum caliber as the barrel indicates?
I do not know about the multiple markings on the barrel. Strange.
Your gun is not worth much at all, as collectors have zero interest in old non-originals heavily customized, and most shooters would not find it very appealing either. Keep it, shoot it, and pass it down. I'd clean it up but not bother to refinish.

Those markings are British Nitro Proof marks. Common to guns that were in England. Lots of Victorys have them. Big Larry

The revolver appears to be a WWII Victory model. It appears to have Brithish proof marks and was made either in 38 S&W or 38 Special for the military. Somewhere down the line, it has been rebarreled to 22 Magnum if I'm reading the markings correctly. I suspected the cylinder was either sleeved or replaced to make the 22 Magnum chambering. The rear sight is an add on and the top of the frame was machined for it. The grips are aftermarket. Since it's a parts gun, the value would be low for resale, but since it's was your Dad's gun, the value you place on it is up to you. Bob!

It probably began life as a Victory model 38-200 which was lend-leased to Britain during WWI. Sometime after, it was re-barreled and re-chambered to .22, given some sort of aftermarket adjustable sight, and was polished and re-blued. Collector value is nil, so any work you do certainly won't hurt the price, but it won't help it either. I doubt that Smith & Wesson would touch such a heavily altered old gun. If it operates safely, I'd suggest keeping your money.

Welcome to the Forum.
Keep it in the family, enjoy it for what it is, a family heirloom. If you were to sell it you would regret it somewhere down the line. How well does it shoot?

This gun has undergone some major modifications during its life.

From the serial number you describe (V + four digits), we can say that was shipped in 1942. The proof marks and abbreviations indicate that it was in service in Britain. It probably (but not certainly) originally chambered the .38/200 round, which is the standard military chambering for commonwealth countries at the time. The .38 Special is a different round, slightly more powerful, that was the chambering for the American versions of this revolver.

The gun was originally a fixed sight revolver, but was converted to a target model by the addition of adjustable rear sight and taller front sight blade on a ramped base. The base resembles but is not identical to front sights installed on converted wartime revolvers by Parker-Hale in Great Britain after the war.

I can't see the size of the bore or the cylinder throats, but one of the stamps on the barrel says .22 Magnum. Was the gun converted to one of the .22 centerfire standard production or wildcat rounds available in the '50s and '60s?

The barrel is probably not original to the gun, and the cylinder may be a replacement too, depending on whether bore diameter changed. Do you see the Vxxxx serial number on the flat underside of the barrel or the rear face of the cylinder? The original parts would have had those markings.

Interesting rear sight. Usually elevation and windage are both controlled by slotted screws. In this case, elevation could be adjusted by turning the knurled disk. I don't know who made that.

S&W won't touch a gun that old even if it has not been modified. I would encourage you not to try to refinish it, but just take care of it as it is and let it remain a family heirloom.

EDITED TO ADD: Boy, what a flurry of responses. Everybody piled on with pretty similar observations while I was writing up a few comments. And yes, welcome to the forum.

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David Wilson

thanks to everyones input, i had no ideal that it started its life as a WWII gun, my father shipped it back when he was in germany, i have shot it a many of day killing ground hogs with it, it still shoots well, always grouped well also, yes it will stay in family. my daughter has shot also and killed a few ground hogs. again thanks for the info on the gun, this sight is great avenue for info. and the grips that are on it was the original grips when he sent it back from germany, i wonder it tha kings grips made them for those guns in england or where, it would have to be 40's, 50's, 60's wonder how long kings has been in business?

King's Gun Works - 1-800-282-9449

Kings is a U. S. firm.

While not collectible as an example of an original, that is a pretty neato and useful revolver.

Great old S&W, I love these old guns, Someone spent a lot of money in its day to build this gun, Just because its old don`t mean its not a great shooter. A good gun smith could make sure every thing is safe and in order, And you will have a great shooter with an interesting history. The value of your gun is- Priceless family heirloom

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The absence of pain is...death

Not a gun that would interest a Smith & Wesson purist, but conversions are a fascinating field in themselves. Most conversions are marked by the company that did the work, usually Parker Hale or Cogswell & Harrison. Not exceedingly rare in 22LR, but yours is the first I have heard of in Magnum. That may be a later alteration from LR, as the Magnum was not introduced until 1959. Your rear sight resembles the one in an earlier thread "Victory Model in 22LR." Keep it in the family and keep those varmints under control.

I was just re-reading my collection of old "American Rifleman" magazines, and ads for these converted Victory/M&P models show up in several of the 1960 issues. They were offered in 22LR and 22Mag.

Perhaps someone on the Forum with knowledge about these guns could chime in. Did they use S&W barrels/cylinders or make/modify the parts in England?

i took a few pic of the cylinder, it has the same sn# on the butt also on the cylinder it has V and K2 on it, i dont think it was sleeved, look at the pics, see what you think. it has a 6 1/2 in barrel on it. im also curious, the sn#being so low, would that also be the same sn# it had as a old victory gun? V3850
thanks

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That's a pretty neat gun. Having been changed to 22 Mag just
ensures that someone will always be taking it out to use it, where
you might not have if in its original caliber.
Some day, when you get the time, you might consider typing up
a sort of history of the gun, for the time it's been in the family, and what ever you know about where it came from, and all. Keep it with
the gun, and a generation from now, family will be amazed at what
came down thru family history.
Welcome aboard, looking forward to hearing what ever you decide to do with the gun. TACC1

I have found out more on here about this gun then dad ever knew about i just wish he was still around to to read this about it he would be amazed he died in may of 2006. im thankful of the help everyone has given me. this will help to document this gun for my daughter and one her childern.

Update on my earlier response. Looked a little further in my "American Rifleman" collection, and found a 1961 ad for the guns that stated the barrels were made in Belgium for the conversions, so barrels were not obtained from S&W. Still wondering about the cylinders; do yours appear to be sleeved with .22 inserts or solid?

Sorry, strayhorse, I missed your earlier post with pictures. Cylinder does appear to have been sleeved, but I could very well be wrong. Others may come in with their opinions.

I, like the others, would not refinish. You should be able to obtain, alter or make a screw for the sight strap. Do that, then take it out and see how it shoots, report back.

Cool gun, esp. with the family history.

This was an interesting thread!! Does the forcing cone actually have two raised ridges in it?

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i looked at the gun again and took more pics, i think it has been sleeved, as far as the cone i dint see anything but lathe mill rings inside it coning it down. i have read the victory guns are model 10, found out tonight that there may be a victory sn data base?it would tell when it was made shipped and to where, some man by the name of charlie flick may have it, anyone know? SN#v3850 on the butt and cylinder.

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What are the markings (if any) on the top of the barrel?
Also, can we get a good close up of the muzzle? (Trying to see if there is a sleeve or not.)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

i got the pic you requested and a few more , no marking on top but found one under it looks like a dragon, also found more V number inside the cylinder closure, did anyone find out anything about the year made or the list?

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Looks more like a dancing chicken to me. That mark further confuses the history of the gun. Per the book Gunmarks, that resembles the lion used by the Prague proof house or the Liege mark for guns sent to be proofed at a foreign proof house.

Thanks for the new pictures.....
The barrel definitely has a sleeve. The lack of markings on the top on the barrel points to either they have been removed or that the barrel has been replaced.
I agree with red9 that the "dancing lion" is either Belgian or Czech, although it doesn't quite match either in the several reference books I have, but it's close enough to allow for variance in the stamping die. (I vote for Czech) However it does support that the barrel has been replaced with an aftermarket one.
I can't lay my hands on the medallion in the grips, but I have seen it before. Maybe it will come to me later.....
That gun has had an interesting past. Your father bringing it back from Germany in the early '60's fits in with the theory that it was rebuilt around that time. My theory is that some dealer in England ordered a replacement barrel from either Czechoslovakia or Belgium. (The lion proof could support either) The gun was then proofed in England for commercial or export and possibly supplied to a dealer in Germany, maybe even a PX, where your father obtained it.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Am trying to reconcile the information that I read in that 1961 "American Rifleman" ad (saying that the barrels used were newly made in Belgium) with the fact that your barrel certainly appears sleeved. No way a 4" M&P/Victory barrel can become a 6", sleeved or not!

Yet it certainly seems unlikely that a complete new 6" barrel could be made, with all the machining involved, and still sell at that $40 price. Maybe they obtained 6" M&P barrels and sleeved them?

The lack of patent dates on the barrel pretty much tells me that it's not an original S&W barrel. The article didn't say that the barrels obtained in Belgium were made as .22 barrels, only that they bought barrels from Belgium. Nothing to say that Belgium didn't sleeve a bunch of .38 barrels they happened to have on hand. (Maybe even got them from the Czechs.)

I have a C96 Broomhandle in .30 Mauser that the Belgians "rebuilt" including a sleeve job, removing all of the German marks and reproofing with Belgian marks. (And it wasn't a 9mm to begin with, but a pre-war commercial already in .30 )
So who knows what they might do......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

so you saying that gun sold for $40? wow, how can i find or get ahold of that article?

I owned several Czech rifles with their lion stamped on them, and it looked nothing like this one-Belgium, IMO...I'd guess they got lots of guns for next to nothing after WWII and made alterations to them...The Czech rifles I owned started out as German issue Kar 98's and were modified for use by the Israeli army. There was no shortage of surplus guns of all types back then and they were all dirt cheap.

mark

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Liberals made the USA

Mark,
Nothing like actual comparisons. I was looking at hand drawn examples in a book. Being a Belgian mark makes more sense in this case..

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Very interesting gun,
I have seen a few in .22lr but yours is the first .22mag to pop up so far.

Would it be possible to take some pics of the firing pin on the hammer as well as the hammer nose bushing where it comes through the frame?
Also of the ejector star and any barrel markings?

I see the forcing cone has a sort of jump gap or chamber before the actual rifling begins ?

my guess would be factory barrels had an insert fitted as these were done on a budget and new barrel would be costly but the lack of S&W marking could prove otherwise.

Interesting part would be that since originally it was a centerfire gun in order to have the firing pin strike the rim of the rimfire round the cylinder inserts and barrel would have to be offset in order to be slightly located more inwards towards the cylinders center.
If not the round would be struck dead center.

Since the round itself is much smaller in diamater the sleeves would move the round inward on its own but they would still have to be offset.
They probably had a jig that centered the sleeves or even a rod through the barrel if done individually.

There is a company that sells conversion kits in Europe to fire .22 rimfire through a .38 / .357 and I have always wondered how the barrel insert was aligned properly as to lign up perfectly with each offset cylinder insert.

Thanks for sharing.

I think it would be easier to just replace the hammer nose and cut a slot in the recoil bushing than it would be to try and line up offset cylinder and barrel sleeves.

Or just do it like a K-22 and pin a short firing pin in the frame and remove the hammer nose completely.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

hers the pics you asked for, the hammer hits the shell at the bottom of the case. its a little narrow type pin in the hammer, i also found another mark on the pistol, thanks for you help. this turning out to be quite a conversation piece. im just amazed at the people here and thier knowlege. wow!

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Enjoy that revolver. Wouldn't hurt to catalogue what you do know about what went into it.
It is a one-off, and is a family 'relic'. Pass it down. In a hundred years or so, some one of your descendants will have a unique and interesting gun.

strayhorse, as I mentioned, the ads featuring your gun or something very similar to it were in 1960 and 1961 "American Rifleman" magazines. I could get you the issue numbers if you want, most 1960 and early 1961 issues had the ads. If you want to get a copy or copies the magazines aren't hard to find or very expensive.

please send me any info you can ill find it to have with the gun, we shot it last night and killed a ground hog, my daughter and father was real close when he died and it means alot to het and me to have all this info that everyone haa given me about this gun. there are great people in the USA.

I'm looking at my copy of The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, and the mark on the bottom of the barrel is definitely from the Prague proof house. Interesting gun!

I can't add any more to what has already been said, other than to remark that that gun was of some interest to me and that I'm glad you posted it!

I was not aware Victory-s were modified much after the war, but it certainly makes sense. People were very practical-minded then. A conversion like that might not seem economical today, but probably made a lot of sense at that time. I wasn't reading gun magazines then, so its fun information, for me. Lots of stuff like that if you hang around here long enough.

I agree that I would certainly leave that gun as-is. It's real value is in its history. Messing with it will only detract.

strayhorse, I went back through my 1960 and 1961 "American Rifleman" magazines and have the information you requested:

The only company that seemed to handle the guns like your Dad's was Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Of course at that time you could mail order handguns with virtually no restrictions and have the gun sent directly to you (we called it freedom back then).

The July 1960 issue has the first mention I saw--a small segment of Klein's larger ad on page 3. Has a tiny picture of the gun.

August(p. 61), September(p. 7) and October (p. 4) have the best ads for those guns, a picture, mention of availability in both .22 and .22 Magnum, and saying that both guns with 'original' blue are available for $39.88 or "deluxe" refinished guns at $44.98.

November(p.5) and January 1961(pages 2-3) drops the offer for "deluxe" guns.

April 1961 (p. 10) has a slightly different ad saying that the barrels were new, Belgian-made. This was the last ad I saw for these guns.

If I had a spare copy of any of the above mags I would send it to you, but I don't. However, as I mentioned before, copies are neither hard to find nor expensive to buy. I'm sure eBay has them for sale from time to time (often you can buy a whole year, or at least multiple issues, for about the same price a single copy will cost you). And there are other sources.

Regards, Ralph Boineau

thans alot for the info im going to look those up and see if i can buy them. hey by the way can anyone tell me what that last proof mark was the one that has a roof over and look like the letters C7?

Well I see this thread is almost 3 years old, but I stumbled across it trying to find info about my father's .22 Mag S&W. This gun is not in quite as good of a condition as yours, but it is nearly identical. It's has a V serial and all of the same markings, right down to the dancing chicken. It also has the identical target sights and the silver crown on the grips. I've attached some pictures (taken with cell phone so pardon the quality). If you've found out any more history on this gun I would love to hear it.

My dad was given this gun by my uncle, who bought it in Germany in the 1960s. He either had it modified, or knew it was modified when he bought it. That's about all I know.

Thanks!
Wes

You might start a new thread to get the most help.

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Get off my lawn!