20's-30's Sheriff in a Western Mining Town. What's He Carrying?

[M1Lover]

I'm in an old West Arizona mining town. The town is doing a ghost walk, reenactment of several murders that occurred in the 20's and 30's. Due to my "majestic" mustache (not my words) I have been appointed sheriff of the said western town for the events October 9th and 10th. The costume is easy, tan slacks, Tony Llama's, white shirt, vest and my Resistol Texas DPS (think LBJ) hat. Now, wizened Gents, the town issues 38 cal blanks for the event. I know, scary, but while I have a speaking part, I don't have a "shooting" part. Apparently there was a notorious deputy in the era who did all the shooting in town...I would, however like to be wearing the appropriate law enforcement sidearm of the era. I thought about buying a replica piece, but what the hell good is that?
If YOU had this part, the 20's-30's Western Sheriff, what revolver would you be carrying? Holster? Any help would be appreciated. Looking for .357-.38 for future "shooting" parts in other productions.
Thanks Gents! I appreciate your input.

[jmace57]

To be honest, it is as likely as not as to be a Colt SAA. Perhaps a Colt Army Special? As far as a S&W goes, an M&P?

[M1Lover]

Originally Posted by jmace57

To be honest, it is as likely as not as to be a Colt SAA. Perhaps a Colt Army Special? As far as a S&W goes, an M&P?

Yeah, thought about the Colt SAA, but prefer S&W's anyway. THANKS for the reply. H.

[BAM-BAM]

If you wanted a Colt a New Service ...... .45

Smith.......a 1917 but that's also a .45.......

Smith & Wesson; a M&P made 1899 to third change (?).......... in .38 special (could fake it with any M&P with a half round front sight)

Maybe a 38/44HD a .38 on an N-frame..... early 30s (could fake it with a 27 or 28)

Late 30s..... ah what the heck........ Registered Magnum.... 357magnum ... out west....... a 5 or 6 inch

[italiansport]

Keep in mind that pistols were often used to subdue someone without shooting them. I'd want something with a little heft to it to use as a "persuader" and I'd go for a Colt New Service or other large frame revolver!
Jim

[poordevil]

Although not a Yuma native, I remember hearing or reading that a Yuma law man in 1927 or so foiled a bank robbery using his Colt SAA. The law man was in his late 60's or 70's to boot!

There is also the S&W .44 Triple lock......in nickel with pearl or ivory stear head and ruby grips!

[THE PILGRIM]

1940 Mogollon, NM deputy.

[DWalt]

Western lawmen in the 20th century carried a wide variety of revolvers in different calibers, and some carried a Colt Model 1911 .45 Automatic. In .38 Special, the two most likely revolvers for that period would have been a S&W Military & Police Model (which later became the Model 10) or a Colt Army Special Model (which became the Colt Official Police in 1927).

[handejector]

Interesting that no one has mentioned the 44-3rd.....

[Absalom]

As for barrel length, lawmen in the Western states seem to have preferred longer barrels.

Looking at my limited collection of confirmed or strongly suspected LEO revolvers, there's a 5-inch 1920s M&P out of Nevada, a 6-inch 1940s M&P out of California, but all the 4-inch Colts and S&W's of the general period are from New York, Pennsylvania or thereabouts.

[Hang-Fire Hank]

Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM

1940 Mogollon, NM deputy.

What a great photo, Pilgrim, thanks! Do any of you car guys know what make/model that is behind him?

Hank M.

[THE PILGRIM]

Originally Posted by Hang-Fire Hank

What a great photo, Pilgrim, thanks! Do any of you car guys know what make/model that is behind him?

Hank M.

Here's a different shot, same guys.
Appears to be a Chevrolet Pickup.

[F75gunslinger]

I would have to say that either a Military and Police or a Colt Single Action Army would be the preferred. A 3rd Model might also be a consideration, but one thing to keep in mind, especially in a mining town, a Sheriff would want something that he could get ammo for without having to go to great lengths. If in another town the gun would be worthless if he couldn't find ammo. Also, from a mining town perspective, a 1911 would have to be shipped out for tuning etc., as most in that day and age didn't have experience with them.

[kframeman]

At that time & place I would think Colt's SAA, but...38 spl. S&W 6' M&P would be my choice if you prefer .38 spl. or maybe a .38/44 HD.

[Brian in Oregon]

Why, I would think the grateful citizens would gift him a Registered Magnum!

But if the 1920's were included, perhaps a .44 Hand Ejector, either a Triple Lock or one of the later models.

Or maybe a fixed sight .38/44 HD.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by F75gunslinger

....... Also, from a mining town perspective, a 1911 would have to be shipped out for tuning etc., as most in that day and age didn't have experience with them.

I think before about the 1970s, "tuning" a 1911 is not something that would have occurred to a lot of people...

[opoefc]

Having grown up in the 30s in Arizona mining towns, ( Tombstone, Jerome, Tucson, etc. ), my recollection is that any serious law man carried a Colt SAA in 44-40 or 45 cal.,or a S&W .44 HE(1st, 2nd, or 3rd model) and a Winchester Model 92 in 44-40 and a shotgun. You did see town cops with.38s ( Look at the photos of the Tucson cops that captured Dillinger in 1934 ) but your usual adversary would also be armed with a Colt SAA, or Mexican copy. Every store or trading post carried 44 and 45 ammo. Ed.

[Brian in Oregon]

Might not be an 1892 in 44-40. Might be something more substantial.

Like Private Bill Foster of the Arizona Rangers with his Winchester 1895 Carbine in .30 Army (.30-40 Krag).

[lamarw]

Could very well of been a Colt Police Positive, I just scored one yesterday which was circa. 1921. It is a little more than a Police Positive since it is a Police Positive Special in .38 Special. (Bottom revolver in the attachment) They were supposedly the most popular since they were lighter than most other revolvers at the time.

The upper revolver in the attached picture is a nickel Colt Official Police in .38 Special delivered in 1941.

[ISCS Yoda]

Could very well of been a Colt Police Positive

You just beat me to it! I was thinking that if you're supposed to be carrying a .38 caliber revolver then a Colt PP or a PPS would be available to you in the 1930s as a state of the art revolver.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...e-special.html

Handejector is on target, too:

Interesting that no one has mentioned the 44-3rd.....

And, again, if you're requiring a .38 caliber revolver a big .38-44 Heavy Duty made in 1931 or 1932 would be exactly in line with a gun likely to be carried by an Arizona lawman, just like this one:

Smith & Wesson Forum - ISCS Yoda's Album: S&W Revolvers - Picture

[Xfuzz]

This...
Model 1926 HE from W&K in a Heiser rig....

[Absalom]

Not exactly a Western mining town, but still interesting:

Deputy sheriff, Morgantown, WVa, 1935
From the WPA photo collection

Anyone want to take a stab at identifying the gun? It's got pearls and a non-factory lanyard swivel.

[Big Cholla]

My paternal Grandfather was a County Sheriff in the late 20s/early30s. All I can say is that He carried a Colt Government Model 1911 in a shoulder holster under a three piece suit of clothes. Later he became the county coroner and county tax assessor (what a combination!). As a 6 year old boy, I saw that shoulder holster with the M 1911 holstered hanging on a coat rack in his office. I have no idea what happened to that rig, but I know my Dad didn't wind up with it. :-(...........

[Big Cholla]

I think it is a nickle plated S&W N frame, but I couldn't guess the caliber. .....

[F75gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Absalom

I think before about the 1970s, "tuning" a 1911 is not something that would have occurred to a lot of people...

From what I know of the original 1911 guns ( and many up until recently ), they had to be tuned to be 100% reliable. Any less than that and I know I wouldn't carry one for SD, much less as a peace officer.

[nyeti]

I agree with Xfuzz. The 1926 W&K in .44 special would be my choice. If limited to .38 blanks, it would be a 38/44 HD.

[Alpo]

Originally Posted by F75gunslinger

From what I know of the original 1911 guns ( and many up until recently ), they had to be tuned to be 100% reliable. Any less than that and I know I wouldn't carry one for SD, much less as a peace officer.

That's why they were issued to the Army? Because they all needed work by a gunsmith to make sure they worked?

I believe you have been misinformed.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Absalom

I think before about the 1970s, "tuning" a 1911 is not something that would have occurred to a lot of people...

Absolutely - no more than an Army trooper of that time would have had his M1911 tuned. In fact, the Army would have never allowed anything like tuning of a 1911 as we think of it today. Those guys kept them factory standard, just like they came out of the box. Many Texas Rangers carried 1911s - often prettied up, but few if any in everyday LE use would have been tuned. That's from a later era than 1927.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by nyeti

I agree with Xfuzz. The 1926 W&K in .44 special would be my choice. If limited to .38 blanks, it would be a 38/44 HD.

Don't think those were around in 1927. The HD wasn't on the market until 1930.

[S&WIowegan]

Originally Posted by Alpo

That's why they were issued to the Army? Because they all needed work by a gunsmith to make sure they worked?

I believe you have been misinformed.

I agree with Alpo! Those old Army 1911s tended to be loose and reliable IF you fed them 230 gr. hardball which is what they were designed for.

[DWalt]

At that time, your factory .45 ACP ammunition choices for the M1911 were limited to 230 grain hardball, and nothing. Some today may not realize that today's assortment of handgun bullet types and cartridge loadings essentially did not exist until about the 1970s. If you wanted bullets, you had to be happy with round nose lead bullets or round-nose jacketed bullets for the most part. And almost any M1911, even in beat-up and sloppy condition, will function very reliably with hardball ammo.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Don't think those were around in 1927. The HD wasn't on the market until 1930.

The first shipment of 1926 .44 Specials was sent to W&K on January 27, 1927.

The OP did say 1920s-1930s deputy. That would include the HD.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

The first shipment of 1926 .44 Specials was sent to W&K on January 27, 1927.

The OP did say 1920s-1930s deputy. That would include the HD.

I was clearly referring to the HD, not the 1926. And as the HD didn't come out until about mid-1930, it's highly unlikely they would have been in anything close to common use in 1930, although a very few might have been used by some in LE. Remember, that was a Depression year, and not many individuals or agencies could afford to buy a new gun.

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by F75gunslinger

From what I know of the original 1911 guns ( and many up until recently ), they had to be tuned to be 100% reliable. Any less than that and I know I wouldn't carry one for SD, much less as a peace officer.

There are some aspects to what you say that are valid, but you over-simplify.

Prior to about the 1980s, auto pistols in general had problems handling the hollow point designs of the day. Part of the issue was feeding ramp designs, part was bullet design. The 1911 was no exception; I wouldn't take an old military Colt, load it up with HydraShoks or some other ashtray design and trust my life to it either. But in a FMJ world, the 1911 was king.

The whole "tuning" thing (although I don't remember us actually using that word back in the early 80s when I first got into modified 1911s) got started from two needs: the discovery of the 1911 as a competition platform, for accuracy, and the desire to adapt it to defensive HP bullet designs, for reliability. That's how Bill Wilson, Les Baer and others got started in the 1911 business.

But that doesn't mean that, as others have already pointed out, in the half century before then, lots of guys didn't trust their life to the gun perfectly "un-tuned".

[nyeti]

Originally Posted by DWalt

Don't think those were around in 1927. The HD wasn't on the market until 1930.

Go back and read what I wrote.....I said the 38/44 because of use with .38 blanks...it would be close age wise. Obviously the 1926 was available before 1930. They were hugely popular L/E guns, oil guy guns, and the bad guys of the era as well. Wolf &Klar did business with all of them. I figured the OP wanted the gunfighters cop gun of the era. The 1926 was that gun until the Registered Magnum came along. But go ahead and make it a pissing contest.....sorry to not be correct enough.

[Bill Bates]

Can't say what was being carried by a small mining town sheriff but here in Utah the Highway Patrol in the 1920s first issued the Smith & Wesson .44 Hand ejector. (something I'm keeping an eye out for)

[DAinTX]

Originally Posted by F75gunslinger

From what I know of the original 1911 guns ( and many up until recently ), they had to be tuned to be 100% reliable. Any less than that and I know I wouldn't carry one for SD, much less as a peace officer.

The 1911 was certainly considered to be very reliable in that era. As others have said 230 gr. hardball was the order of the day, it was what the gun was designed around, and the 1911 had passed some rigorous military testing. It was extremely popular with lawmen...for example, the Texas Rangers became almost synonymous with the Colt 1911. It was also extremely popular with the gangsters of the day.

[old bear]

Think any of the following. M&P, 38/44 Heavy Duty, or Colt .45 auto, WWI bring back. Holsters may well have been made by local shop in the Brill or Threepersons style.

If you are going to pull this off I hope ya got some deep pockets.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

[BAM-BAM]

FWIW in this debate.........

My Father couldn't afford a RM when he joined the local Police Dept in 1937/38..... so he bought a Colt New Service in .357 magnum and sent it off to Kings in Calf for new sights and an action job....... total cost about $55 ($5-10 less than a RM IIR his comments correctly.... good money in those days)

the Colt served him well for the next 4-5 year as he rode his "Indian" motorcycle....before a 4 year detour into the South Pacific ...........and for 30 years after his return.............................

[lamarw]

Since some of you folks want to keep bringing up another Rampant Pony as in the U.S. Government Colt M1911, I will throw up a picture of mine from 1918.

[Tom_R]

A lawman out west in the 1920's?

You have to have a SAA of some kind.

[6GUNSONLY]

Originally Posted by THE PILGRIM

Here's a different shot, same guys.
Appears to be a Chevrolet Pickup.

I know where Mogollon is, and have been there a few times. Used to live in Silver City and also in Reserve, NM. Heck of a road that goes up the mountain from Glenwood to Mogollon.

[DWalt]

Originally Posted by Tom_R

A lawman out west in the 1920's?

You have to have a SAA of some kind.

Remember that there were a great many heavily urbanized areas "Out West" in the 1920-30 period. Think Denver, LA, San Francisco, Seattle, etc. and police and sheriffs deputies in those areas probably did not carry many, if any SAAs. SAAs may have been more common in rural western areas. I'd bet that during the 1920-30 period, S&W and Colt DA revolvers in LE use heavily outnumbered SAAs in most areas of the US, including "Out West."

[bmg60]

Hi
Just my 2 cents worth.
I have two guns both shipped to a mining town one is a 44 2nd model shipped in 1919.
the other one is a M & P 6 inch barrel shipped in 1921.
Take your pick. Hard to beat the M & P shoots 38,s and you can buy one from that time period in good condition for less that 800 or 900.
Jim Fisher

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by Tom_R

A lawman out west in the 1920's?

You have to have a SAA of some kind.

Around 1927, San Antonio, Texas Police Department bought at least 150 Colt Single Action Army revolvers in 4 3/4" .45 Colt.

Beaumont, Texas PD bought thirteen (13) Colt SAAs in .44 Special in 1937.

[jimmyj]

A small town Lawman would have been required to furnish His own equipment (I came on the scene in 1962, and the only thing the City furnished was uniform and badge).
Low pay, so budget would be a priority. Quite possible something pre-owned (used) such as a bring back from WWI such as a Military Model 1911, Model 1917, Luger, Mauser Model 1896, Webley, etc. A SAA would have been popular or .38 Revolvers.
As to the question of ammo availability, a couple boxes would have been sufficient as a lot of target practice would have not been a priority. A shotgun and rifle would have rounded out the firearms, and quite possible the Deputy would have already owned.

[THE PILGRIM]

Originally Posted by jimmyj

A small town Lawman would have been required to furnish His own equipment (I came on the scene in 1962, and the only thing the City furnished was uniform and badge).
Low pay, so budget would be a priority. Quite possible something pre-owned (used) such as a bring back from WWI such as a Military Model 1911, Model 1917, Luger, Mauser Model 1896, Webley, etc. A SAA would have been popular or .38 Revolvers.
As to the question of ammo availability, a couple boxes would have been sufficient as a lot of target practice would have not been a priority. A shotgun and rifle would have rounded out the firearms, and quite possible the Deputy would have already owned.

Absolutely! It will be a gun already owned by the Lawman or a family member or one that can be purchased cheap locally.
These guys usually didn't have or make much money.
I have been waiting for some body to tell us that his Grandpa carried a 1911 or a Luger brought back from War I.

[murphydog]

Back to the original topic :

If you are limiting yourself to a sidearm due to the blanks being provided and availability of the gun in that time period, a .38 M & P would be easiest. (The equivalent Colt may be as easy, not as familiar with those.). The 1920s vs. '30s is an important distinction; as others noted, many guns of the latter decade were unavailable in the '20s.

Some questions: do you own or can you borrow any suitable guns and leather gear or are you buying all this, or can you load or find your own blanks? I recall there were/are .44/.45 versions (3 or 4 in 1?) that will work for a larger caliber.

[Alpo]

5-in-1 blanks worked in 38/40 rifles and pistols, 44/40 rifles and pistols and 45 colt pistols. Three pistols, two rifles - five guns, thus the name. What they were were 38/40 blanks, and so they fit in the other caliber guns. I would think they are too long to work in a 44 Special gun. Also body diameter should be too big, as 38/40 is .470 at the base, while 44 Special/Magnum is .457. I don't think they'd fit in the hole.

[Brian in Oregon]

The original Five-In-One blanks only fit 38-40, 44-40 and 45 Colt. They got that name from the firearms they fit, which were three handguns in those cartridges, but only two rifles, because at the time no 45 Colt rifles were made. Later they were called Three-In-One simply to denote the three cartridges.

There are modern plastic blanks that not only fit the above chambers, but also 44 Special/Mag and 410 shotgun. Unfortunately their utility seems to be offset from complaints about the plastic cartridge cases misfeeding and jamming.