Pre Victory 38/200 Headache

BIG DAZ UK

BIG DAZ UK

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Help :confused: I have been finally researching (what I think) a pre victory 38/200 revolver that I have owned for about 18 years.
I have bought the excellent book US pistols of WW2 the secondary models by Charles W Pate and it has just given me more questions and confusion.
When I first bought the gun I thought it was a British issue as it was in the calibre 38/200 (+cylinder rebates) it also had what I now know are post war british birmingham view marks and BNP nitro proof marks from when it was sold on, there is no crows feet british ordnance stamps nor a US property stamp, also the finish looks different to all others I have seen (all over light tooling marks a bit like my mint late war P38 and gloss black finish) as are the grips (checkered but no medallion) but the afforementioned look to be original (no marks/wear to any screw heads inc grips & under the grips looked like they had never been off when I checked.
Under the grips on the left bottom is the letters KO under the right grip at the top is the letter Z at the bottom is the letter L plus some very small hard to see markings.
The serial No is 904926 it was inspected by W.B (Waldemar Broberg).
I have done as much research as I can myself I just want to know who it was issued to (branch not person) when it was made is the strange finish and grips original.
I apologise in advance if I have said something british and hard to understand.
Forgot to say the barrel is 5 inches long & I have a picture if any volunteers want to see/put it on here for me (have not got a clue how to)
 
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Big Daz,

Please e-mail me the picture(s): [email protected] (and remove the "NOSPAM," of course).

My initial guess is that it's been run through one of the British 'smiths (Cogswell & Harrison, Parker-Hale, et al.) that checkered the original smooth stocks that would be appropriate for its production period (Jan.-Feb., 1942). (Check inside the right panel for a serial number, but it may not match as these 'smiths did bunches of these guns and couldn't be bothered to make sure that each revolver retained its original stocks.) A serial number in this range *should* have the "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" top strap markings; they were probably polished off prior to the refinishing. In addition to the W.B. initials on the butt, there should also be a P proof and the "flaming bomb" U.S. Ordnance Dept. marking.

The markings found on the grip under the stocks are factory assembly codes: irrelevant.

Without any provenance, it's virtually impossible to determine to whom it may have been issued.

Steve
 
Thanks for that I have one not amazing picture ready I have just read in the afforementioned book that some batches of the gun my serial no is from didn't have the US property stamp.
I will send you the picture now thanks again.
Another question I wanted to ask is it a US issued gun or a lendlease?
 
It would appear, from your description, to be a Pre-Victory bought by the British Purchasing Commission in probably Dec. 1941, or close to that. It was released fromo Crown ownership as surplus, after WW2 and bought by a British gun dealer and the sold on the civilian market in England, hence the Birmingham proofs. If the gun's serial number is stamped on the back side of the right grip panel, then the grips are original, but have been checkered by someone after it's military service.The small letters and numbers on the grip frame are the fitters and assemblers stamps, done while the gun was being manufactured at the S&W plant. WB is the military inspector that inspected these revolvers, as you know from Pate's excellent book. The strange finish is probably the product of something done after the gun was sold as surplus.
It would be almost impossible to tell what branch of the military service was issued the gun. WW2 British units did not tend to mark their small arms with unit markings as was often done in WW1. The absense of the "crow's feet" could just be that it was overlooked, or it's not impossible that the gun was issued to a non-military unit, such as the Home Guard or an Air raid Warden, etc. It is not a US issued gun, and was probably Lend Lease, but the refinish took off the US Property stamping.Good Luck. Ed.
 
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Here's Daz's photo:

DSCN1371-1.jpg
 
Thankyou so much for doing the photo would do more but its nearly midnight on this side of the planet.
And thanks everyone for all the info so far
Does this picture help any?
 
I wish I could add some useful info for you, but at the very least I would like to say it's a good looking piece from what I can see. The checkering on the stocks makes it look like an aftermarket set or somebody went to the trouble of checkering them after they recieved the gun. Also, the screw just behind the trigger appears to be a flat head where it should be rounded but not a big deal considering its' military background.
 
According to the Pate book, the .38/200s were produced in bright (commercial) blue, then matte blue, and then the wartime Victory Models in Black Magic. Is is possible your gun is one of the bright blue versions?
 
I have seen those type of grips before, I think I still have them somewhere. At one time I believe Sarco was selling them. Anyhow, this is a pic of my gun sn.818xxx. It has the correct early blue finish these came with and the grips are numbered to the gun. Hope this helps in some way.
JeffsSWs092008017.jpg
 
Those early .38-200's had the normal commercial blue. My brother once owned one with a six-inch barrel. The S&W stock inlay was the usual silver color.

Other than the lanyard ring, they looked just like commercial M&P's.

The OP's gun has the postservice checkered stocks like those on many Cogswell & Harrison - altered ones sold here years ago. I doubt that the gun had the bright blue finish if the original grips were smooth. Those weren't used until after April, 1942. But these may not be the original grips.
Surplus dealers were careless about keeping all parts original.

I'd like a closer look at the S&W addess on the OP gun. I'm probably seeing things in that blurred area, but it looks more like the postwar address with the Marcas Registradas marking and the other stuff. All the .38-200's I've seen have just the Made in USA marking there.
 
BIG DAZ UK said:
Whats 'Suncorite' then ? (paint,blue,phosphate or other) , the finish on my gun looks to good to have been painted its like a black coloured gloss blue finish.
Click to expand...

Suncorite is an enamel paint finish that was used starting in 1944 as near as I can determine, it was not used by S&W but was common on rebuilt and post 1944 new British military guns. Here is an Inglis that had the slide refinished with Suncorite.

002.jpg

007-1.jpg
 
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Texas Star said:
I'd like a closer look at the S&W addess on the OP gun. I'm probably seeing things in that blurred area, but it looks more like the postwar address with the Marcas Registradas marking and the other stuff. All the .38-200's I've seen have just the Made in USA marking there.
Click to expand...

I don't see a four-line marking there, looks more like some corrosion or an uneven paint application.
 
Hi thanks for more info/comments the blurry area is infact reflection from the sun when I took the picture, will take some more close up ones today and get some kind sir to post them on here for me.
I didn't know at first if the grips were some sort of transitional thing when they went from checkered medallion to plain walnut, but I do not know what year/serial they changed.
Its a genuine S&W not a spanish copy.
 
Looks like it had some fairly coarse Sanding, followed by a very fine high Polish gesture, enough to polish the surface of the coarse sanding gouges somewhat...rather odd...

I have seen those particular Stocks also here and there, and, I believe them to be old aftermarket ones, though I do not know form whom.
 
Oyeboteb said:
Looks like it had some fairly coarse Sanding, followed by a very fine high Polish gesture, enough to polish the surface of the coarse sanding gouges somewhat...rather odd...

I have seen those particular Stocks also here and there, and, I believe them to be old aftermarket ones, though I do not know form whom.
Click to expand...

Thats exactly what I think, now I only collect near mint original pistols from the era 1900~1945 (had this long ago as a shooter when was allowed) and if it does turn out to be a refinish I will probaly look for a better S&W or two (as I have grown on them recently) and sell this one on to several nagging friends who really like it.
I didn't know if this finish was correct for the year of manufacture which I think according to Mr Pates book is mid 1942, is this the so called 'black magic finish' and are the sanding, tool marks the result of some rough guns that were made in a rush during this year according to his book, or is it a rough sand down followed by a better bluejob post war.
To me it would be like spending a fortune respraying one of your lovely 69 Mustangs without sorting the rust and scratches out first.
And thanks again Steve for putting the pics on here I thought you lot would be in bed still over there lol.
Forgot to say under the grips the 'scratchy finish' is the same under the blueing as the rest of the gun but it is a more satin finish to the blueing.
 
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The gun is certainly a refinish, the "Black Magic" finish refered two is a dull phosphate finish akin to Parkerizing. The gun also appears to a small amount of pitting under the present finish. When these guns were refinished post-war the goal was to make them look reasonably presentable for resale on the civilian market. The grips on the gun were very common on these post-war guns in the civilian market.
 
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