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The Postwar Commercial Victory Model
For those of you who are not familiar with these, the Commercial Victory is an interesting variation of the Military & Police model.
Made up from surplus wartime Victory frames, these were the first M&P's to be released for civilian purchase after the cessation of hostilities. I know of at least one that is marked as being issued by the NYPD. Their key identifying characteristics are an "SV" prefixed serial number along with a plugged hole where the butt swivel would have been affixed. The accepted serial number range for these runs from about SV769000 up into the middlle of the SV812000 block. I don't know of any reliable estimate for how many were produced.
The blued finish (I don't believe any of these were factory nickeled) varies a bit, some guns being a bit more highly polished than others. I have seen only magna style original stocks, some of these being evidently prewar leftovers. I suppose service style stocks are a possibility but that would be atypical. 4 or 5 inch barrels are the norm, but I would not be too surprised if a 6 inch one turned up. I think it's unlikely that any 2 inch versions were made.
One thing I find curious is that all these Commercial Victory revolvers seem to have shipped in March 1946. It's as if Smith & Wesson was hoarding them for release all at the same time, perhaps to forestall any perception of favoritism as to who got them first. Their distribution was certainly shortlived, as I know that by April 1946, the company was already shipping the subsequent "S" prefixed M&P's.
As you can probably discern, there is a lot of extrapolation and even some conjecture in this account. There just isn't a lot of hard information on these to be had. I won't mind being proven wrong on any of this if it advances our collective knowledge regarding this intriguing chapter in S&W's history.
As for the two pictured here, #SV7702XX has a 5 inch barrel, with early postwar style (blued machined stock circle insert) magna stocks numbered with larger numerals in two lines. It is somewhat more highly polished than #SV8124XX, which has a 4 inch barrel and prewar type (unmarked machined stock insert in the white) magna stocks that are numbered with smaller numerals in a single line. These small differences are suggestive, albeit not conclusive, of the latter revolver having been completed before the former. Despite their disparities, though, both shipped in - you guessed it - March 1946.
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I also have found the "SV" variant M&P very interesting. I found my first one about 6 years ago and have searched for them ever since. In that time I believe I have seen 12 or 13 for sale, including one 4 inch with the nickle finish that looked correct and had matching stocks in the SV812XXX range.
Here is a picture that I have posted before of one "S" prefix in front and four
"SV" prefix guns. I sold the one in the middle last year and found it for sale this week on one of the big online auctions by some "dog" guy. So there is a very nice condition "SV" gun out there for sale right now.
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08-02-2011, 11:07 PM
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Thanks for this informative thread. Filled in some blank spots for me.
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I have an "S" prefix revolver S8139xx with all of the characteristics of an "SV", except that it has a nicely polished satin finish. That is, it has the plugged lanyand hole, pre-war style stocks, and a small "s" stamped on the side plate. Why does it not have an "SV" serial number?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swca1000
I have an "S" prefix revolver S8139xx with all of the characteristics of an "SV", except that it has a nicely polished satin finish. That is, it has the plugged lanyand hole, pre-war style stocks, and a small "s" stamped on the side plate. Why does it not have an "SV" serial number?
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Well, that is a very low "S" prefix serial number in the M&P series. The plugged swivel hole suggests that it was a Victory frame, perhaps one that had not yet been finished or numbered, in other words, even less ready for the commercial conversion than those that preceded it. Very interesting indeed. Do you have a shipping date for it?
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Fascinating information. My SV793339 has the standard Victory finish and shipped to the US Navy in Oakland in May of 1945. It sounds like some earlier serial numbered guns came out of the big safe in Springfield later, and were then given Commercial finishes for the civilian market. I wonder how many of the SV guns were Military vs. Commercial?
Thanks for the great post,
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I don't have a shipping date, but your thread has motivated me to find out! I'll let you know.
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Guy, Close serial numbers to your gun in the SV data base are all SV guns, shipped in March & April 1946. Somebody went to lunch early one day and your gun got by without the V stamp. SV guns came in dull blue finish as well as high polish blue. S&Ws are famous for having little things that don't compute, one of which is where are all the VS stamped guns? I've seen maybe 3 or 4 in 60 yrs. Ed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
Guy, Close serial numbers to your gun in the SV data base are all SV guns, shipped in March & April 1946. Somebody went to lunch early one day and your gun got by without the V stamp. SV guns came in dull blue finish as well as high polish blue. S&Ws are famous for having little things that don't compute, one of which is where are all the VS stamped guns? I've seen maybe 3 or 4 in 60 yrs. Ed.
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Ed, can you reveal what's the highest SV prefix serial number you have in the database?
Also, have any been reported to you with other than the 4 or 5 inch barrel?
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I have a 4" that's been refinished in blue that has the swivel. It was shipped in 1945. It is SV7727xx. It had ivory grips when I bought it.
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Great threat!!
Ive got SV81272X
I havent lettered it but I know it was sold through the NYPD to an officer. I would have to dig out the paper work but I think it was June or July of 46'
Its got the flat blue finish , plugged hole and a few spots that have machining marks under the blue. The stocks are numbered and have (I think) blue machined disks.
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Great information here! My thanks to the OP and all who followed with their own comments. This thread has definitely sharpened my knowledge on an interesting subset of the SV revolvers.
Five stars and a "like" from me.
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Goony, Charlie Flick has a better data base than mine, I think, so maybe he will post an answer to your question about the highest numbered SV gun. My records record SV813132 shipped April 4, 1946, with a 5 in. barrel. I also recorded a VS gun , VS813414, ship date unknown. Hope that helps! Ed.
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I have SV 813132, 5" blue in 38 spl. It lettered as shipped
April 4th, 1946 to Clapp & Treat co., Hartford, CT
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Note: S&W invoices on the SV guns do not call them Victory Models, but they are listed as .38 M&Ps. Ed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
Goony, Charlie Flick has a better data base than mine, I think, so maybe he will post an answer to your question about the highest numbered SV gun. My records record SV813132 shipped April 4, 1946, with a 5 in. barrel. I also recorded a VS gun , VS813414, ship date unknown. Hope that helps! Ed.
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That certainly extends the upper limit on the SV prefix guns significantly beyond what I had stated (based on my limited information) at the start of this thread. And, I'd note, SV813132 exceeds what is published in SCSW as the highest number "Victory" (paying attention to the terminology per your most recent post) - which is given there as SV811832 - by (doing the math) 1,300! And the VS prefixed gun stretches the envelope further yet. Thank you, Ed.
PS - Looking at the progression here, I think S8139XX reported earlier in this thread may not be just a case of a dropped "V" - I think the argument can be made that it is an extremely early "S" prefix gun. But I think both your perspective and mine on that one are plausible enough to say the jury's still out pending some additional evidence one way or another - ideally consisting of some more documented pieces in that high 813000 number range.
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The SV 813132 gun has of course magna grips and has the lanyard hole plugged off and blued. All parts are matching. The finish is typical of other late 40s K frames that i have, not the high gloss finish.
The main reason I had Roy letter it was because the number was higher than what was published in the SCOS&W.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xray97
I have a 4" that's been refinished in blue that has the swivel. It was shipped in 1945. It is SV7727xx. It had ivory grips when I bought it.
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I'm supposing that this was originally a military spec gun, not a factory commercialized Victory.
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Goony, As you note, there's a 1300 number range between the serial number SV 811832 used in SCSW and Mike's # SV813132, however I think the mention in the SCSW is regarding the highest numbered nickel gun. I have noted several dozen SV numbers, over the years, that are higher than SV 811832. I recently sold SV812307, 4 in. blue, Magnas and plugged hole, NIB, shipped Feb. 1946. Ed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
Goony, As you note, there's a 1300 number range between the serial number SV 811832 used in SCSW and Mike's # SV813132, however I think the mention in the SCSW is regarding the highest numbered nickel gun. I have noted several dozen SV numbers, over the years, that are higher than SV 811832. I recently sold SV812307, 4 in. blue, Magnas and plugged hole, NIB, shipped Feb. 1946. Ed
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Now that I look again, I see that. Missed the "nickeled" reference. Plus I have been advised that at least a couple factory nickeled examples of "SV" prefixed guns are documented, so throw out the statement I made in my inital post about that, it's just erroneous.
Ed, I have been able to find information on another early "S" prefixed gun, this one #S8136XX shipped in March 1946 (same time frame as the "SV" prefixed ones). I am in the process of trying to find out if this one also has a plugged swivel hole.
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Goony, What I've never seen, or documented yet, is a Pinto VS or SV gun, so your mission is, if you care to accomplish it, find me a pair, one VS and one SV, both Pintos. Consecutive numbers would be nice. They will fill a nice niche in my Post Victory collection and Charlie Flick will be green with envy! Ed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
Goony, What I've never seen, or documented yet, is a Pinto VS or SV gun, so your mission is, if you care to accomplish it, find me a pair, one VS and one SV, both Pintos. Consecutive numbers would be nice. They will fill a nice niche in my Post Victory collection and Charlie Flick will be green with envy! Ed.
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Yeah, I'll get right on that. You might not like my finder's fee, though.
I was rereading that blurb in SCSW, and actually it's rather ambiguous. It could be interpreted to be saying that the "SV" prefixed serial range is from SV769000 to SV811832, with that highest known number just happening to be a nickeled example, or it could be saying as you took it, that SV811832 is the highest known nickeled one. The more I look at it, I'm inclined to take it in the former sense, but it is a little confusing the way it was put. In any event, I knew that there were "SV" prefixed guns at least up into the mid 812000 range, and I would have to amend that now to say they go all the way up into the early 813000 range.
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Just to recap what we think we know now (barring the inevitable exception cropping up):
The Postwar Commercial Victory Model
- was made up from surplus Victory frames with the swivel hole plugged
- spanned a serial number range from SV769XXX up into the SV813XXX block
- had either a 4 or 5 inch barrel
- were fitted with magna grips, some of which were prewar leftovers
- while a few nickeled examples are known to exist, were generally blued
- were mostly shipped in March 1946, although a few may have gone out in February or April
Any dissenters?
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08-04-2011, 01:05 AM
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From what we collectively know about SVs now, I think Goony's recap hits the spot. Write it down and take it with you to gun shows, pawn shops, storage auctions, etc. and report back on any new info. The verbage in SCSW is a little ambiguous, but you have to cut Supica some slack. After all he is a recovering attorney! Ed.
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My apologies for “coming late to the party.” I’ve been discussing, through PMs, several points from this thread with Stephen (“Goony”) and he has asked me to post the salient facts of our discussion here. Based on the database maintained by Charlie (“ordnanceguy”) and me:
We have the same SN as Ed for the highest “SV”-prefixed number: SV-813132.
We have two nickeled examples of “SV”-prefixed commercial models: SV-811832, as has been noted, and the HIGHER-numbered SV-811938.
S-811120 is the lowest “S”-prefixed number we have; it was shipped Sept. 12, 1945.
All “SV”-prefixed commercial examples had 4” or 5” barrels.
We have no commercial “SV” models shipped prior to Feb., 1946; we have no military-finished “SV’ models shipping later than Aug., 1945.
Steve
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Steve, Do you have VS 811119 in your data? ( Note: That's "VS", not SV) It is reported as the last Victory Model made
in John Henwood's book "America's right Arm - The S&W M&P Revolver" Ed.
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Great thread! Thanks to all that have contributed
What kind of information is kept in the Victory model database?
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Lobo, The Victory Model data base is kept by LWCmdr45 ( Steve) and ordnance guy (Charlie) . Any and all info. therein is as reported by Forum members, or as observed from any source by Steve & Charlie and others, Best data is copies, or info, from factory letters and photos of markings on Victory Models. The more info. that can be found and recorded in the Data Base, the better off we are as to our knowledge of these interesting S&Ws, known as Pre-Victories, Victories and Post War Victories. Info. can be submitted to Charlie at [email protected] Ed.
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An update - I received additional data today on S8136XX shipped in March 1946 - it has a 5" barrel, magna stocks, and a plugged swivel hole. In other words, just like the "SV" prefixed commercial Victory type, just no "V" - second one of these to be documented just in the course of this thread.
Although some of you may be too young to remember this, as Arte Johnson used to say, "Very interesting...."
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08-07-2011, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
Steve, Do you have VS 811119 in your data? ( Note: That's "VS", not SV) It is reported as the last Victory Model made
in John Henwood's book "America's right Arm - The S&W M&P Revolver" Ed.
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Ed,
I'd be willing to bet that Henwood got his info from Roy Jinks' 1977 solo work, "History of Smith & Wesson," where the same SN was mentioned: "The hectic pace of wartime production ended on August 27, 1945, when the firm stamped the last wartime serial number VS-811,119 on a .38 M&P Victory Model."
I've never discussed this point with Roy, but I agree with Henson's comments about the relative scarcity of a *true* "VS"-prefixed example. Until recently, I was of the opinion that *all* those with revised safeties were "SV"-prefixed and that any mentions of "VS" guns were simply misprints or errors in writing. However, a few months ago Charlie came across a commercially finished/stocked 5" M&P with SN VS813414. The curious part is that the "V" has serifs while the "S" does not. At the time, it had not been lettered, but I'll need for Charlie to chime in here with more information, if there is any.
Steve
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08-07-2011, 09:36 AM
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goony, i have S816302, a 4" with the plugged lanyard hole, magna stocks with the small "s" under the right stock. must have been way down in the frame bin when they numbered it. lee
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08-08-2011, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Barner
goony, i have S816302, a 4" with the plugged lanyard hole, magna stocks with the small "s" under the right stock. must have been way down in the frame bin when they numbered it. lee
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Well, Lee, that makes three of these uncovered in the course of this thread. I have to believe that the existence of multiple examples means it is not a case of someone just forgetting to stamp the "V" - I'm also intrigued that yours is later than the highest "SV" prefixed serial number by over 3,000.
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08-08-2011, 04:09 PM
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goony, makes you wonder how many frames were already made with the lanyard holes drilled. i've never been sure at what point the ser nr was stamped on the butt. i've really enjoyed this thread as post war M&Ps are a passion of mine. i haven't had them all out and looked at them for a long time til this thread started. thanks. lee
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08-08-2011, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Barner
goony, makes you wonder how many frames were already made with the lanyard holes drilled. i've never been sure at what point the ser nr was stamped on the butt. i've really enjoyed this thread as post war M&Ps are a passion of mine. i haven't had them all out and looked at them for a long time til this thread started. thanks. lee
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I was told by another gun manufacturer that the serial number must be put on as soon as the frame can be made into a functioning gun. So what ever the last machining operation is I would guess it would happen after that. This also helps to not have serial numbers lost in production by errors or accidents. I was told that its very bad to have gaps in serial numbers.
Also manufacturers arent big on waste, so if a part has a problem it might get put to the side and fixed later, then get finished.
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08-08-2011, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goony
Well, Lee, that makes three of these uncovered in the course of this thread. I have to believe that the existence of multiple examples means it is not a case of someone just forgetting to stamp the "V" - I'm also intrigued that yours is later than the highest "SV" prefixed serial number by over 3,000.
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Oh just some thoughts on the stamping of the numbers.
I think that the numbers on the bottom of the grip are stamped all at one. It does not look like it was a hammer blow on metal stamps. It was probably done in a press. With out knowing what they used there are two common ways that this is done.
The one way to to have a holder in the press and the operator inserts the numbers and letters that are need for each gun. This is very easy to make mistakes as the stamps come out and can be inserted out of order, IE VS or SV, just reverse the stamps. What happens is that since the number and letters are reverse images and the head is upside down mistakes are easy to make and are found after you make the stamp.
The other method is to use whats called a "Numberall" head. This unit has the number stamps on round disks that spin snap in place at each number. Kind like a car odometer, or how odometers were ![Smile](https://smith-wessonforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif) (These are not roll marks but stamps). These units are often custom made so it would have the letters and numbers needed. These heads can be made to auto index so that after a press stroke it clicks over the next number with out the operator touching it, or forgetting to do it.
I know on manufacturer using a numberall for sure
They do not use the auto index because they want to be sure the stamp is good deep and clear, if not, rehit it or scrap it and make a replacement with that SN, no SN gaps.
From my experience serial numbering is an important step and its not taken lightly. The parts have a lot of value at this point and they dont want to scrap them.
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01-04-2012, 12:47 PM
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Glad to see this thread awaken so I will relate one of my regrets. Several years ago at Tulsa a man stopped by my table and saw my Smiths. He said "I've got an old revolver like that in my truck. Would you like to see it?" Later he stopped by with a very nice SV and offered it at a good price. I dont remember the number or the condition details but at the moment I was hot for N frames and in negotiation for some .44 I couldn't live without and needed all my available cash. About that time Uncle Ed wandered up and about threw his arm out of joint handing the man the required cash.
(Ed, if you're listening, still have it and are tired of it, I might be able to come up with the cash now ![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://smith-wessonforum.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif) )
Bob
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01-04-2012, 05:26 PM
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05-13-2012, 03:55 PM
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data base update
For those feeding (or just keeping up with) the data base on the early post-war commercial M&Ps, here is another data point in the overlapping serial number range between 811120 (the lowest S-prefix) and 813132 (the highest SV prefix). I recently acquired S812991, a 5” that shipped in March 1946. Like its SV counterparts, is made from left-over Victory frames as evidenced by the plugged lanyard swivel hole.
Russ
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05-13-2012, 09:59 PM
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hi
I have a 5 inch blue with prewar style Magna,s and it is serial numbered
SV-810187. I don't have a ship date. it a 95 % gun all matching.
jim
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05-13-2012, 11:08 PM
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I don't know if anyone has specifically noticed this (although it must be obvious when viewing the datatbase list), but I find it interesting that mentioned in this thread are two consecutively numbered guns that are each notable, but not for the same reason. We have 811119 that supposedly has the unusual "VS" prefix, and next 811120, which is the earliest documented gun with just an "S" prefix. Kind of makes you wonder what was going on in the factory at that juncture....
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05-13-2012, 11:23 PM
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Bob Bettis, I don't have a specific memory of the purchase you mention above. I buy too many guns at Tulsa and my memory ain't what it used to be. However I plan to haul a truck load of Victory Models to Boise for my sales table, so maybe that gun is in the pile!
Ed.
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07-08-2012, 06:59 PM
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07-08-2012, 08:17 PM
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Excellent example! Whims like that are good. Congratulations.
Bob
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07-08-2012, 09:20 PM
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Thanks Bob. Spur of the moment purchases get me in trouble more times than not, but I think I made out OK on this one. I haven't been able to find much in the way of value on these Post War Commercial's. The book says that the SV brings a premium but doesn't go into any more detail. How much of a premium do they actually warrant? I would imagine that the earlier Commercials will bring more than the later, if for no other reason than the pre-war Magna's that they wear.
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05-28-2020, 11:09 PM
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Ok, I know this is an old old thread... but I’m happy to add an SV pawn shop find.
Serial is SV 7725xx Pinned lanyard plug. Matching numbers including the stocks. Matte blue finish. No letter, but I plan to letter it soon. Oh, and no “S” in the side plate and I looked hard for it.
Amazing info. In this thread... thank you... I understand the passion these safety Victory wheel guns create. Mine is in perfect working order... I plan to get some proper wad cutters and see how accurate I can be... maybe do a bowling pin competition. Smooth as butter double and a superbly crisp and light single action. Feels great in hand... difficult to match and to explain.
Once I figure out how to add pics I’ll add them ... sorry
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05-29-2020, 06:23 PM
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Here's a theory about why so many S&W's were shipped in March, 1946:
During WWII the Office of Price Administration (OPA) set the upper price for everything from wheat to steel, including consumer goods. After the War the price controls gradually came off one by one for a period of about a year and a half or so.
In a search on the subject I was able to find specific dates for the elimination of price controls for various things, but so far not for firearms. So, this is slightly speculative, but I think that the common March, 1946 shipping date for numerous S&W's is because that was when the price controls for guns were removed. (More $ for S&W)
Consider this a good theory until someone can find the specific date for the removal of OPA constraints on the firearms industry.
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05-30-2020, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjb1
Here's a theory about why so many S&W's were shipped in March, 1946:
During WWII the Office of Price Administration (OPA) set the upper price for everything from wheat to steel, including consumer goods. After the War the price controls gradually came off one by one for a period of about a year and a half or so.
In a search on the subject I was able to find specific dates for the elimination of price controls for various things, but so far not for firearms. So, this is slightly speculative, but I think that the common March, 1946 shipping date for numerous S&W's is because that was when the price controls for guns were removed. (More $ for S&W)
Consider this a good theory until someone can find the specific date for the removal of OPA constraints on the firearms industry.
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Relaxed OPA controls continued into 1947, but they remained in effect during most of 1946 in the same form as they existed during the war. I have also wondered why S&W waited so long after war's end to re-start distribution of M&Ps, but I doubt it was price controls. It may have had something to do with establishing new marketing channels which had lapsed during the war. I am unaware of how many postwar commercial SVs were shipped, but certainly it was not a large number. They were assembled and finished by S&W from frames (and probably other components) remaining in factory inventory after VJ day, when government purchase contracts were cancelled.
Last edited by DWalt; 05-30-2020 at 08:38 PM.
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05-30-2020, 02:46 PM
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I believe DWalt is on the right track. In a private exchange, I recently wrote the following to a fellow SWCA member:
Quote:
September, 1945, would have been the first month of postwar work, the war having concluded in August. Retooling surely took some time as well as redeveloping the network for civilian distribution. Hence, we don't see civilian shipments beginning until February, 1946.
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So far as I have been able to determine, the first large postwar shipment to a civilian destination was of .38 M&Ps to the Cleveland Police Department in February, 1946. Major shipments to distributors did not occur until the following month. I am aware of one that left the factory on March 1.
Incidentally, the revolvers sent to the Cleveland PD were in the S815xxx range. It seems obvious to me that an inventory of the M&Ps had been built up between September, 1945 and February, 1946. This is what allowed such large numbers of guns to go out the door in March and April.
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05-30-2020, 03:32 PM
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The delay in resuming commercial shipments does not apper to be limited to S&W.
Anecdotal evidence indicates that Colt re-started even later. The earliest letter for a post-war Official Police I’ve been able to find (and I’ve been casually on the look-out for some years now, though not at the level of focus research), is this one from October 1946, on a leftover Commando frame.
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05-31-2020, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
The delay in resuming commercial shipments does not apper to be limited to S&W.
Anecdotal evidence indicates that Colt re-started even later. The earliest letter for a post-war Official Police I’ve been able to find (and I’ve been casually on the look-out for some years now, though not at the level of focus research), is this one from October 1946, on a leftover Commando frame.
![The Postwar Commercial Victory Model-d67007ab-6567-4e94-b2bb-29334a117feb-jpg](https://smith-wessonforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=453061&d=1590867058)
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As a M1917, Victory, and Commando accumulator all I can say is...…...SWEET!
(Now where are dem pics?)
Dale
Last edited by tenntex32; 05-31-2020 at 01:01 AM.
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