Stumbled across a 38/32 Terrier today, mint gun,blue, 5 screw, no box or tools. I believe this is an I frame. It has the correct stocks. ser # 664xx. 38 s&w ctg. Is it worth $800?

It sounds nice but is not an $800 gun. They aren't often for sale in the condition described but I think $450 would be about top value given the chambering. Interested to see what others think.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

$400 to me and $500 to most other buyers. The only one who thinks it's worth $800 is the seller.

These have been getting more expensive recently, or perhaps I should say the asking prices have been climbing. I don't think all those high prices result in sales, but if you have a burning need for a Terrier in high condition, you might have to go to $550-600 to get it.

My personal inclination would be to drop out of the bidding around $500, but it seems to be the case that others exist who would go higher. $800 is too much unless the gun is NIB with docs and tools. (If Terriers even came with a brush or mop; I'm guessing they did, but don't know.)

That serial number marks it as a postwar gun, but early in the run of resumed production. Since S&W didn't get around to reintroducing the I-frames until five years after the war was over, that one probably dates to 1951.

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David Wilson

I agree, and if it's the one I'm thinking it is I was following it until it hit $500 then I lost interest. The one I am thinking about did look very nice.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

hburney,

We're assuming of course that you inadvertantly left an X off of the serial #.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Actually, I think he has it right. Terriers were numbered in the .38 RP series, where the serial count never got really large.

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David Wilson

I found this (bottom) early post war Terrier in 38 S&W with circassion walnut service grips in high condition about one year ago,
I paid $450 and was happy to have found one .
I would guess its worth about $500 now .

BTW... Just checked my serial and its 58,078 if that helps.


Might trade it if the right half penny front site Chiefs special came along.

hburney, I've been looking for that very gun for a long time, but I would laugh at the seller at that price and wait for him to come to his senses (sober up??) $500-550 would be about tops in today's rising market, even. JMHO ~ YMMV

Froggie

Thanks Guys, It is on consignment at a local GS, no auction. I thought it was priced too high but I knew I would get the straight scoop on the forum.

I agree that, unless an examination of the gun supports the price, $800 is very high and even worse if it does not include the buyers vig. That being said, if you really want the gun and are able to do so, I would not fault you in the least for paying the price for it. I don't believe in belittling a person's gun because I think he or she paid too much for it nor would I want anyone to not share their gun with me because I or someone else makes them feel guilty for paying, and being able to pay, a higher price for the gun than the generally accepted prevailing market value for the gun at the time.

Reported prices for guns are what a willing buyer chose to pay a willing seller for the gun at the time. The transaction depends on the parties' respective circumstances at the time and is not always repeatable. Auction prices can even be more deceptive. I see a gun sold at an auction and naturally think that it establishes the fair value. Of course this is wrong. It only means nobody at the auction wanted that gun more at the time its lot came up for bid (generally a small universe of buyers). If I had been there and wanted the gun it would have sold for a higher price.

Another consideration with less encountered guns, such a high condition pre-War or early post-War Terrier, is that you don't see them that often and when you do they are often high priced. So if you want one you face a low probability of finding one and the the low probability of getting one at a good price before somebody else buys it. There is nothing wrong with accepting the odds and waiting until you find one at a "good" price. Judging from your posts, many of you choose or have to do this.. But there is nothing about being a good collector that requires you to not only find and buy a good gun, but also to get it a "good" price. I don't think that there is anything wrong with paying the price you are required to pa for the gun you want so that you can get it and enjoy it sooner. You may even enjoy the gun so much you forget what you paid for it.

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Rush

According to the SCS&W, a 664xx in the 38 RP SN range is correct for a Postwar Terrier (Model 32).

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Rush

Forgive me, my brain went to Bermuda for a minute........again!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

This one was on GunBroker about 18 months ago. Starting price was $400 and I made the one and only bid on it so apparently nobody else was interested. It's as close to 100% as a used gun can be. It showed no sign of having been fired (I know the factory supposedly fired all guns but the cylinder face on this one was spotless and looked unfired) and didn't have even a trace of turn line.

That's a gorgeous little I frame .38 you have there! Probably even a 4 screw.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

that is beautiful! here is a post-war transitional i got a few months ago. i had to give 600 and change for it, but it has a lot of the early features, and was about as nice as any i had run across. one with a slightly higher serial number than this one went off on g-b recently for 905.00. i was in 'til it hit 630, and i had had enough! the early postwar ones, with the small service grips are becoming very difficult to find, in the real world! and, that being said, the earliest flatlatch ones are few and far between, also!


i saw a nice "model 32"-marked flatlatch at a recent tennessee gun show for 425.00. if it had been in n.c., i would have been severely tempted. it was easily in 98% condition, and would have been hard to improve on.

I agree that the early post-war with service grips, half circle front sight are extra cool and worth some extra dollars.
I was lucky enough to pick this #71983, 1954 version and I have to say it is one on my favorite S&Ws... No doubt about it, but it was about half the price mentioned here, less than a year ago on GB. Shoots good too....

it might be worth more than you think this pre war one sold recently and was posted at $1750.00


[url=http://www.gunsamerica.com/955977054

I get a bad vibe out of that $1750 package. The gun has a prewar serial number close to the end of known production, but that's an early 1950s box. And why would a fixed sight gun need a late '50s sight adjustment tool? When did poly bags first appear? Wouldn't prewar tools have come in a cellophane pack or paper envelope? Wouldn't the brush be a separate tool with a twisted wire handle? I think that's a put-together package. And hard rubber stocks? Not in 1939 or 1940, when this gun was probably assembled.

The gun could have been inventoried stock that was shipped after WWII. I don't think this was postwar production because of the single address line. I believe all postwar production had the four line block with the possible exception of special orders that were few and far between. The company was simply not tooled up for major I-frame production until late 1949 or 1950.

So: nice looking gun with a couple of inconsistencies, and a package that defies credibility.

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David Wilson

David,
Amen to that!! One has to wonder if it "really" sold or if it was a shill buyer??

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I started trying to accumulate a representative grouping of the I-frame revolvers because I was fascinated by the "miniature" aspect of them... unlike the later "improved I-frames" and J-frames, they have the same flat mainspring and essentially are just scaled down versions of their more famous K- and N-frame contemporaries. Unfortunately, they seem to be rapidly (rabidly?) gaining the notice of the investor/collectors who have no real interest in the guns for their own sake, but as some sort of financial instrument. I'll have to reevaluate whether there is any reason to continue to compete with the Philistines for these, or whether I should just be happy to keep the few I was fortunate enough to get before the balloon went up.

Froggie

I sold a nice nickle one 3 days ago for $400.

Kevin

i emailed and got several detailed pics of the prewar one on g-a a while back. he had come down to 1250.00, then, i think. man, my humble speculation is that it has had a vicious polish and reblue. at least they didn't blue the hammer and trigger, but it has several tell-tale signs of a load of buffing. plus, the grips are very, very worn. and as mentioned before, all the "stuff" is just wrong. surely it didn't sell. i couldn't give 350.00 for it. i guess the box is probably worth 100.00, and the tool set is maybe 15.00. 400.00 tops for the whole enchilada, as far as i am concerned.

i have yet to actually find a NICE prewar example. i recently found a nickel '38 vintage one that had had a pretty nasty re-do, too. even the trigger and hammer were nickled, and it was way overbuffed, too. it didn't have an "N" anywhere (i assume it should have, if it had been a nickel gun from the factory, but wasn't 100% sure on the prewar i-frames). he wanted 950.00 for it, if i recall correctly. i figured it was maybe a 300.00 gun.

my opinion is that truly spectacular original guns will keep bringing the big bucks, while worn and (especially) redone ones will be worth way, way less. i never know, when i run into a wildly overpriced "poor" example, if the dealer is just fishing for a sucker, or if he has put way too much into something he wasn't familiar with. maybe a little of both.

Charlie,
Sent you a PM on a fair priced little snubbie jewel.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks Jim, but unless I misread the ad, it is an Improved I-frame with coil spring. I'm hoping to find one with the flat spring, since that's what caught my fancy in the first place. I guess I should be happy with the .22 HFT I have in progress and the possible upgrade on the 6" Reg. Police .32 we've discussed. By staying with second tier guns I can hopefully avoid the kind of financial disasters that loom up for the speculators. I'll go back and double check that ad you sent a make sure I read it right, though. Thanks again for thinking of me!

Froggie

Oh I remember now, you're looking for a flat spring. The one I sent is a 1st improvement with coil spring. Sorry about that. Sending another via PM just for 'kicks'.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I won this pre-war Terrier on GB recently for the BIN price of $499. I picked it up last week and it is a real beauty. SN is 536XX, pictures are by Seller (I have not had the camera out recently):





I too have recently become interested in these I frame guns as a contrast to the N and K Frames that I usually collect.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

OMG Richard, what a beauty!! And good price too. A Transitional pre war/post war just as early as they come. It must be an unimproved flat spring although I can't see the grip screw with all the pre war features:
One line Made in USA; no address.
Pre war service grips with pre war 18 lpi checkering and looks like flat silver medallions or possibly the scarce steel, pls check with a magnet.
Name and caliber in two lines on left side of barrel.
Double 'hourglass' thumbpiece; is it relieved like top photo or solid like bottom photo?

Here's the 1st two shown here on pre war and post war K frames,
the 'double hourglass' or double 'pinch' around screw hole thumbpieces:

Pre war style with 'undercut' pad; left overs also used on very early post war guns.





2nd style, and first new post war thumblatch, still has the double 'pinch' but without relief cut under checkered pad.



Thanks for showing us that one, great score!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I'm curious-
why do you think it is a Transition? The bright blue tends to make me think PRE-war.

On pricing-
Terriers got carried and/or slid around in drawers and under store counters.
The OP in this thread described the gun as "mint" for $800.
Truly "mint" Terriers are very scarce in the early guns- that is, the 5 screws both pre and post war.
I sold a mint, and I mean MINT post-war Tran Terrier for more than 800 with no box, but I do mean MINT, NOT possible to upgrade.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Jim:

I was very happy to find it. It is a standard flat spring with the strain screw. I numbered your questions - see the answers below:
(1) Yes
(2) it's either 18 LPI or 20 LPI - it is much more fine than my pre-war K and N Frame stocks. They fit like a glove, but are not numbered to the gun - stated more correctly - there is no number stamped or written on the underside of the stocks.
(3) Flat medallions - not steel
(4) Yes
(5) Yes
(6) It is relieved/undercut in the pre-war style.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

WOW!! I know I'm impressed. That is one sweet puppy you found, and it would look good in anybody's kennel... especially mine!!

Froggie

Lee,

It's quite simple, I'M FRIGGIN' DYSLEXIC...
My apologies, my mind tends to switch numbers and the older I get, the worse it gets. I read his number 563XX and thought it was well within the post war range. Though you're absolutely right of course, the 'shine' should have tipped me off. No wonder it had all the features (except I didn't see patent dates on the right side of barrel). It's a pre war for sure.

Thanks Lee and sorry all,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

RK, that is spectacular! man, the early ones are few and far between, especially when they are truly nice!
thanks for the pics!!!!

I am confused, I have a post-war Terrier round butt I frame,w/ the flared flat latch, 5 screw - SN-7373X. I see posted here earlier SN's, half moon front sights but with the traditional latch that supposedly came later on. How is this possible?

Thanks

No worries, the post war and 1950's small frame and features have to be about the most confusing!

Here's what I've been able to sort out:
The I frame thumb pieces prior to the flat latches; .22/32, .32 and .38 S&W have a completely different evolution than the J frame Chiefs Spl.

These post war revolvers used four different thumb pieces prior to the flat latches starting with left over pre war thumb pieces followed by three different standard type thumb pieces ending with the final style which was the same as the only style used on J frames including the first 117 or so Baby Js. And this was the only standard style used on J frames. From c. late 1952 to c. early 1953 (production dates, not shipping dates) the I frames began using the flat latches (starting with the 2nd style and ending with the 3rd style) which continued thru the new Model of 1953 until 1966. The 1st style FL was only used on the Baby J frames and Airweight K frames.

FOUR STYLES OF POST WAR THUMB PIECES THAT PRECEDE THE FLAT LATCHES:

The 1st used thumb piece post war; left over pre war thumb pieces carried over on the very earliest of the post war I, K & N frames; the double hourglass or double 'pinch' around screw hole thumbpiece with relief cuts under checkered pad shown here on a K22.



2nd style, and first ‘new’ post war style thumb piece, still has the double 'pinch' but without relief cuts under checkered pad.



The 3rd style was a single hourglass or single 'pinch' in front of the screw hole like a #1 & 2 but from the center of the screw to the rear it's like a #4.



4th style with no ‘pinches’ which was also the style used on the first 117 or so Chief Special 'Baby J' frames, last style I frame thumb piece immediately prior to the flat latches, and used on all K and N frames. This 4th style was re-introduced on all I & J frames, and K frame airweights in 1966 and used for several years in both blue and stainless until the modern style took over, with shaved off lower half. When the 'classics series' was introduced, an exact copy of the #1 above pre-war style was introduced on them but was an MIM cast part.

THREE STYLES OF FLAT LATCH:

1st style flat latch used only on the Baby J frame and K frame airweights.


2nd style flat latch began on the I frames, Baby Js and K frame airweights just prior to the Models of 1953.



3rd style this Pre-Model 36 used on I, full size J frames, and K frame airweights beginning mid late ‘50s.



Difference between 2nd Flat Latch (on left) and 3rd Flat latch (on right), top view.
Also post war transitional hammer and 1953 style (Kit Gun Target) on right.



M&P thumb latch mismatch

Two styles of latch backs, split or solid:

I & J frames flat latch have split backs:
All pre flat latch thumb pieces are split.
All flat latches are split.
All standard thumb pieces post flat latch are non-split (began ~1966)

K frames:
I have no FL K frames but most likely they are split based on the I & J frames above.
All my '50s K frames are split including a 19-1 from 1961.
All non-pinned barreled Ks I have (earliest is 1980) are non-split.

N frames (never used flat latches):
All my '50s models are split. I have no N frames newer than 1956.

NOTE: Flat latches have been changed by owners due to their dislike, non-traditional looks or both. Of course the bolt it's attached to, required replacement w/the FL type bolt.

And when they were used, I've outlined here based on my observations:
THE POST WAR I FRAMES EVOLUTION - Smith & Wesson Forum

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Wow, Hondo! Another tour-de-force in the information we all have been head scratching about. Thanks for all of it, and for me personally, thanks for the comparative flat latch pix... I really needed them in one place by the same photographer so they are easily compared. Another great service to the S&W Community! I still can't help but wish your collected wisdom would be in print somewhere (hint, hint, again! )

Your biggest fan,
Froggie